Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic & setup, new v2.A1

Electric Motors and Controllers
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Re: Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic & setup, new v

Post by kywalda » May 02, 2017 1:20 pm

Lebowski wrote: looking at the hex, your pwm freq is very low at 8kHz, what output stage do you run ? deadtime is extremely low at 300 nsec (for an 8kHz output stage). Typically you see 6kHz adn 2000 nsec deadtime for big IGBT's, or 20kHz and 500 nsec for FETs...

there is no fieldweakening current in the hex...
As output stage I found a reference design from TI http://www.ti.com/tool/TIDA-00364. It is rated at 8KHz to have an efficiency > 95% at this frequency. The Output is a very very clean quare with no spikes even on this short deadtime.

The fieldweaking was switched on later and results in a great increase of speed :D

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Re: Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic & setup, new v

Post by kywalda » May 02, 2017 1:24 pm

izeman wrote:
kywalda wrote:Why will voltage rise? Isn't it constant (battery voltage)? So when climbing a hill with full throttle in dr3 the phase current will rise to max.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=35278
A lot of math! I'll read it next weekend :-)

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Re: Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic & setup, new v

Post by kywalda » May 02, 2017 1:48 pm

Lebowski wrote:As mentioned above, the delay in the system is important. I don't think it comes from the gate drivers, I would have a look at the RC filters in both the hall and current sensor lines...
Oups - I don't have any RC filters in the hall lines...

The current sensor line filters is this 1K / 10n?
Cur-sen-rc-filter.png
Cur-sen-rc-filter.png (12.41 KiB) Viewed 901 times

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Re: Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic & setup, new v

Post by Lebowski » May 03, 2017 12:18 am

izeman wrote:
kywalda wrote:Why will voltage rise? Isn't it constant (battery voltage)? So when climbing a hill with full throttle in dr3 the phase current will rise to max.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=35278
That's an older version... :)

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Re: Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic & setup, new v

Post by Lebowski » May 03, 2017 12:23 am

kywalda wrote:
Lebowski wrote:As mentioned above, the delay in the system is important. I don't think it comes from the gate drivers, I would have a look at the RC filters in both the hall and current sensor lines...
Oups - I don't have any RC filters in the hall lines...

The current sensor line filters is this 1K / 10n?
Cur-sen-rc-filter.png
yep those are the RC filters

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Re: Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic & setup, new v

Post by Lebowski » May 03, 2017 12:26 am

kywalda wrote:
Lebowski wrote: looking at the hex, your pwm freq is very low at 8kHz, what output stage do you run ? deadtime is extremely low at 300 nsec (for an 8kHz output stage). Typically you see 6kHz adn 2000 nsec deadtime for big IGBT's, or 20kHz and 500 nsec for FETs...

there is no fieldweakening current in the hex...
As output stage I found a reference design from TI http://www.ti.com/tool/TIDA-00364. It is rated at 8KHz to have an efficiency > 95% at this frequency. The Output is a very very clean quare with no spikes even on this short deadtime.

The fieldweaking was switched on later and results in a great increase of speed :D
Don't take my word for it but that looks like it could be switched faster. I would also set a longer deadtime, 5 or 600 nsec.

Remember, if you do change the pwm frequency and autocomplete the pwm menu you will get a different f_sample (option g)
This is a significant change propagating all throughout the IC, you will need to do re-do ALL menu's even if some numbers (like L and R) look unchanged...

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Re: Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic & setup, new v

Post by Volttan » May 04, 2017 5:17 pm

I have a problem with the start of the motor in the sensorless mode
The bike needs some help.
It needs your help in configuration.
The engine comes from the RXH peugeot.
Battery 176V 80Ah
Probably it is a bosch SMG

http://www.em-motive.com/index.php?id=198

I could not find anything interesting about it on the web.
Maybe this information seems interesting, but I do not know German very well


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V2.91
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0x2E8B  0x2762  0x2222  0x1E1E  0x1AF2  0x1861  0x1642  0x147A                  
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0x08AD  0x0864  0x0820  * 
[youtube] https://www.youtube.com/embed/sZMwGbZde7g [/youtube]
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Re: Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic & setup, new v

Post by Lebowski » May 05, 2017 6:48 am

Hi Volttan, haven't looked at the hex yet but, what is your application ? The controller can do sensorless start when the load on the motor is low (for instance with a propellor in a boat or plane) but when the load is high you need hall sensors.

For sensorless start, in the misc menu ( from the main menu option 'n') are two parameters, 'wiggle rate' and 'wiggle amplitude'. It needs some experimenting with these parameters to get the best sensorless start (reasonable values for wiggle range: from 5 to 45, for wiggle rate: 5 to 20).

If you need full torque start then you need to add hall sensors or something equivalent (ask Arlo1, he uses a magnet on the end of the motor shaft and a resolver IC)

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Re: Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic & setup, new v

Post by Arlo1 » May 05, 2017 9:29 am

I also found once you have the current senors calibrated perfectly the senseless starts are WAY better!
My Leaf motor controller build. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer

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Re: Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic & setup, new v

Post by izeman » May 05, 2017 10:06 am

Arlo1 wrote:I also found once you have the current senors calibrated perfectly the senseless starts are WAY better!
i haven't found any difference. and everytime i do the current calibration i get slightly different values. it's only some mV, but as the total offset is 30mV max, i don't know how accurate it is.
and lebowski says in the manual to leave it at default. maybe he wants to comment on that?!

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Re: Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic & setup, new v

Post by Arlo1 » May 05, 2017 10:15 am

It's not easy to get them perfect. In my case calibration works best at 1/8th the current settings I usually run
My Leaf motor controller build. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer

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Re: Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic & setup, new v

Post by Volttan » May 05, 2017 12:19 pm

How to correctly set Kerpm?
Do I have to know what is the U / F = const for this electric motor? As in the case of a classic induction motor.
In my bike I have 176 Vmax batteries,

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Re: Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic & setup, new v

Post by izeman » May 05, 2017 12:36 pm

Volttan wrote:How to correctly set Kerpm?
Do I have to know what is the U / F = const for this electric motor? As in the case of a classic induction motor.
In my bike I have 176 Vmax batteries,
no. you can set that to whatever you like to LIMIT the rpm. if you don't want to limit, set it to some extremely high value.

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Re: Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic & setup, new v

Post by Lebowski » May 05, 2017 12:43 pm

Volttan wrote:How to correctly set Kerpm?
Do I have to know what is the U / F = const for this electric motor? As in the case of a classic induction motor.
In my bike I have 176 Vmax batteries,
OK, so looking at the hex:

-pwm freq is rather low at 5 kHz but should be no problem, depends on output stage
-currents are low for the sensors used, but should work
-throttle looks good
-in the erpm menu all look good except

Code: Select all

e) erpm boundary between dr2 & dr23: 96 erpm
f) erpm boundary between dr23 & dr3: 288 erpm
I would change to 1000 erpm for e and 1500 for f. If everything runs you can try to lower these but for a first test, 1000 and 1500.

in the FOC menu

Code: Select all

 measured inductance: 1151.2 uH
 measured resistance: 113.6 mOhm
these look really wrong (especially the inductance) but you are using a very low (20A) measurement current for what are (I guess) around 900A current sensors...

in the misc menu I would go back to the autocomplete values, wiggle rate and range are a bit too high..

Also, I would upgrade your 2.91 to 2.93...

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Re: Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic & setup, new v

Post by Lebowski » May 05, 2017 12:46 pm

izeman wrote:
Arlo1 wrote:I also found once you have the current senors calibrated perfectly the senseless starts are WAY better!
i haven't found any difference. and everytime i do the current calibration i get slightly different values. it's only some mV, but as the total offset is 30mV max, i don't know how accurate it is.
and lebowski says in the manual to leave it at default. maybe he wants to comment on that?!
leave at default :-) unless it really runs bad and current sensor calibration improves it. Current sensors, due to their magnetic material, have a constantly changing offset and are therefore calibration is not 100% reliable. If you look at the datasheet of an ACS758 for instance, they give an offset of only a few mV. This makes me say, ok, forget about the unreliable calibration and just leave it at default.

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Re: Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic & setup, new v

Post by Arlo1 » May 05, 2017 2:20 pm

My car shakes if I leave them at 0
My Leaf motor controller build. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer

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Re: Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic & setup, new v

Post by Volttan » May 05, 2017 2:31 pm

Lebowski wrote: Also, I would upgrade your 2.91 to 2.93...
I just made updates to 2.93.
I will test tomorrow


Arlo1:

Do you have any idea how to make an encoder for my motor?
The motor has a built-in resolver, maybe there is a converter resolver to the hall?

IMG_6313.JPG
Resolver
IMG_6313.JPG (114.98 KiB) Viewed 821 times

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Re: Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic & setup, new v

Post by bobc » May 07, 2017 3:59 pm

Just guesses Voltan
That position sensor looks like it may be possible to replace the circular PCB with a much simpler one with 3 honeywell hall sensors on it, to plug straight into Mr lebowski's system. One of the nice things about lebowski's code is that the hall signals don't have to be accurately at any particular angle (it is nicer if the switchings are spaced out somewhat though....)

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Re: Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic & setup, new v

Post by Volttan » May 09, 2017 5:12 am

bobc wrote:Just guesses Voltan
That position sensor looks like it may be possible to replace the circular PCB with a much simpler one with 3 honeywell hall sensors on it, to plug straight into Mr lebowski's system. One of the nice things about lebowski's code is that the hall signals don't have to be accurately at any particular angle (it is nicer if the switchings are spaced out somewhat though....)
What sensors do you think?
The rotor is made of steel without magnets.

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Re: Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic & setup, new v

Post by bobc » May 09, 2017 5:50 am

[quote="The rotor is made of steel without magnets.[/quote]
OK - it looked like there might be a magnet or 3 in there...... :(

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Re: Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic & setup, new v

Post by Lebowski » May 10, 2017 1:58 am

Volttan wrote:
Lebowski wrote: Also, I would upgrade your 2.91 to 2.93...
I just made updates to 2.93.
I will test tomorrow


Arlo1:

Do you have any idea how to make an encoder for my motor?
The motor has a built-in resolver, maybe there is a converter resolver to the hall?

IMG_6313.JPG
TI makes a resolver-to-digital chip:
http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/sensing-produ ... 58=Encoder

with something like the chip above you can feed the top 3 bits of the output signal into the hall inputs of the controller IC.

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Re: Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic & setup, new v

Post by Altair » May 10, 2017 8:01 am

With just the standard three Hall-effect sensors, how can a sinewave drive manage to control the three phases when the motor is at very low speed? Basically, the Hall sensors just tell the controller when to change the polarity of the phase, but until the next signal arrives, the controller doesn't know where exactly the rotor is located. So it cannot know how much current to send to the phase at any particular point, to create a sinusoidal current shape.

I assume that at higher speeds, the controller is able internally to generate a sinusoidal frequency that is synchronized with the pulses from the Halls, and from there can generate the current curve.

But the low-speed part (from start) stumps me. Does the controller drives the motor with a squarewave?
If so, at what ERPM does it changes to sine? Or is it a gradual change from one to the other?

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Re: Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic & setup, new v

Post by Lebowski » May 10, 2017 8:18 am

The controller IC basically runs a PLL, which in practise does what you say:"able internally to generate a sinusoidal frequency that is synchronized with the pulses from the Halls".

The PLL is basically a filter for the hall info. It smoothes out the hall steps. Looking at the in and output signals it performs this interpolation you mention.

If you look at the phase info, at extremely low speed you will see a staircase with 6 steps (as the motor slowly rotates and triggers new hall combos). As the speed goes
up the steps will more and more become a smooth ramp.

The controller IC does not (ever) drive the motor with a squarewave. Lets say the hall steps are at 20, 80, etc (each time plus 60) degrees.
When the hall combo says 20 degrees, phase A is driven with Amplitude*sin(20), phase B with Amplitude*sin(140), phase C with Amplitude*sin(260). So a 120 degree
shift for each phase. Since in this example sin(20) is 0.34, phase A is driven with 34% of Amplitude. At extremely slow speed the output signals will go in 6 steps through a
sine wave. And it always drives all 3 phases, not like a China controller where only 2 out of 3 are driven.

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Re: Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic & setup, new v

Post by Altair » May 10, 2017 11:15 am

Thanks for that excellent explanation, Bas.
I didn't choose the right word when I mentionned "squarewave", but I was thinking about the 6-step drive that is standard with non-sinusoidal drives.
When you are in the 6-step mode at extremely slow speed, the "staircase" you mention is not multiple steps of AMPLITUDE on a phase signal, right? It just refers to the 6-step sequence of 3 phases for a single mechanical step of the motor?

On another point, if I want to know the commutation frequency of the controller, is it the number of magnet poles x the RPM of the motor, divided by 60 to get the result in Hz ?

Thanks again for taking the time to improve our personal culture :wink:

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Re: Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic & setup, new v

Post by kywalda » May 10, 2017 11:54 am

Volttan wrote:
Lebowski wrote: Do you have any idea how to make an encoder for my motor?
The motor has a built-in resolver, maybe there is a converter resolver to the hall?
IMG_6313.JPG
I would try to use the built-in resolver. There seems to be 16 sensors. The output has 6 pins. One for Vcc, one for GND, 4 for the signals (parallel 4 sensors) - maybe...

Try to find Vcc (maybe RED mostly 5V) and GND (black?) and put an oscyloscope to the others. With some luck you'll have nice square-signals, when you turn the wheel.

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