New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

Electric Motors and Controllers

New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

Postby Doctorbass » Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:55 pm

I just received my 5403 motor from Maxwell65 and as i never keep any ebike parts as is i wanted to open it and take a look of what it look like and wanted to share that with you :wink:

Hmmm!! I smell that great fresh new varnish in my lab... it seem that i have a 5400 motor opened :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I will also measure all parameters that will help to include it in the ebike simulator and also the SWbluto simulator.

I took more than 40 different dimensions for your informations.

Please be advised that this motor construction have nothing to do with the known HS, HX, 9C, bafag etc.. THIS IS A TRUE BEAST.. this is the V8 454 of the ebike motor !

Heavy strong, wide so if you are lycra and hope to get a lightweight motor for your carbon fiber frame of 10 pounds.. This toy is not for you!

If you want to put 5kW+ in this motor without to bother with heat this is what you need

This is the 5403, Everything that the old great known X5 is but more powerfull and still tough as the X5 is.

My guess is that you can put more kW into this motor due to the wider stator armature and renforced wider magnets steel ring.

Old X5300 was 32.5mm wide and now the 5400 is 43.5mm wich is 33% wider and better copper fill and more steel for the winding.

WINDING NOT COMPRESSED ( larger motor width)
-Also they did not compressed the winding width to reduce the width. ( just like if they would put the winded motor into a press to redice the width of the winding width...)
The first X5 gen( with the rounded side cover) had a little bit the winding compressed.
The last gen of X5 ( with narrower motor width had the winding FULLY compressed was actyally really flat! on each side)

This lastest X5 gen ( X5400) is NOT compressed! I guess this reduce the stress on the winding skin and leave it in natural state.

The room between the wider area of winding and the side cover inner side is 3mm space




ELECTRICAL PARAMETERS:


Phase to Phase DC resistance ( direct at the junction of the winding terminal and the phase wire so no phase wire resistance included)
Current: 10.0A, Voltage across phase to phase 1.042V Resistance = 104.2 miliohm

Inductance Phase to Phase : ( measured across the phase wire wich change nothing to the inductance of the winding)
= 0.341mH

It's interesting to compare with the previous gen 5303 crystalyte motor parameters:

-inductance between two phase wire:

5303: 0.169mH
5403: 0.341mH

-DC resistance between two phase wires

5303: 0.097ohm
5403: 0.104ohm

( see also my comparison between all X5 crystalyte motor here:http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=19301&p=281141#p281141


MECHANICAL PARAMETERS:
Here is 56 pictures for your answer 8)
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Last edited by Doctorbass on Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:09 pm, edited 7 times in total.
________________
-Fastest speed record from now: 113 km/h measured on GPS
-Fastest ebike 106km/h on flat and managed to enter in the 19.875 sec on the 1/4 mile drag racing !
-0-70km/h in 5sec X5 5303 on 24"
TORQUE SETUP:
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
-Team Konion Member
113kmh Giant___http://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoose____http://www.evalbum.com/1947
E-trike_______ http://www.evalbum.com/3776
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english
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Re: New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

Postby ohzee » Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:55 pm

OMG
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Re: New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

Postby Doctorbass » Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:59 pm

Next:
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________________
-Fastest speed record from now: 113 km/h measured on GPS
-Fastest ebike 106km/h on flat and managed to enter in the 19.875 sec on the 1/4 mile drag racing !
-0-70km/h in 5sec X5 5303 on 24"
TORQUE SETUP:
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
-Team Konion Member
113kmh Giant___http://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoose____http://www.evalbum.com/1947
E-trike_______ http://www.evalbum.com/3776
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english
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Re: New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

Postby Doctorbass » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:03 pm

NExt:
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________________
-Fastest speed record from now: 113 km/h measured on GPS
-Fastest ebike 106km/h on flat and managed to enter in the 19.875 sec on the 1/4 mile drag racing !
-0-70km/h in 5sec X5 5303 on 24"
TORQUE SETUP:
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
-Team Konion Member
113kmh Giant___http://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoose____http://www.evalbum.com/1947
E-trike_______ http://www.evalbum.com/3776
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english
User avatar
Doctorbass
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Re: New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

Postby neptronix » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:03 pm

Looks like 16 gauge wires... perfect.. :lol:

Thing is a monster.. keep it coming!
ES facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/125035107565566

The all-arounder: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Bafang BBS02 on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB
The Bus: ??? on a 'da bomb' cargo bike frame

Pro-tips for noobs: Charge RC Lipos to 4.15v, stop discharging at 3.5-3.6v | Use torque plates/arms! | Rear mounted hubs are always best
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Re: New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

Postby dubsat » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:09 pm

Your new toy Doc... Great!
First build coming soon.
I speak french too.
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Re: New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

Postby The Mighty Volt » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:30 pm

Savage! Looks really good, but probably too wide for a BMX build.
Thanks for taking the time to take the photos and upload them.
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Re: New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

Postby coldfusion594 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:51 pm

Thats a one fat motor!
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Re: New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

Postby Doctorbass » Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:26 pm

neptronix wrote:Looks like 16 gauge wires... perfect.. :lol:

Thing is a monster.. keep it coming!


It's actually 12 gauge. I compared with the turnigy 12 gauge and they look pretty similar diameter of conductor diameter

See pics

Doc
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________________
-Fastest speed record from now: 113 km/h measured on GPS
-Fastest ebike 106km/h on flat and managed to enter in the 19.875 sec on the 1/4 mile drag racing !
-0-70km/h in 5sec X5 5303 on 24"
TORQUE SETUP:
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
-Team Konion Member
113kmh Giant___http://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoose____http://www.evalbum.com/1947
E-trike_______ http://www.evalbum.com/3776
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english
User avatar
Doctorbass
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Re: New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

Postby neptronix » Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:35 pm

Whoops! They looked so small compared to the anderson connectors. My mistake :)
ES facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/125035107565566

The all-arounder: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Bafang BBS02 on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB
The Bus: ??? on a 'da bomb' cargo bike frame

Pro-tips for noobs: Charge RC Lipos to 4.15v, stop discharging at 3.5-3.6v | Use torque plates/arms! | Rear mounted hubs are always best
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Re: New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

Postby Doctorbass » Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:37 pm

neptronix wrote:Whoops! They looked so small compared to the anderson connectors. My mistake :)



Yeah .. these are the PP75 amp comnnector not the PP30 :wink:
________________
-Fastest speed record from now: 113 km/h measured on GPS
-Fastest ebike 106km/h on flat and managed to enter in the 19.875 sec on the 1/4 mile drag racing !
-0-70km/h in 5sec X5 5303 on 24"
TORQUE SETUP:
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
-Team Konion Member
113kmh Giant___http://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoose____http://www.evalbum.com/1947
E-trike_______ http://www.evalbum.com/3776
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english
User avatar
Doctorbass
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Re: New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

Postby ZOMGVTEK » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:00 pm

That's a big hub.

I wonder how much of a difference in efficiency this will be over my 1kW Golden, when its being fed 8kW. My little 12 FET is only good for about 9kW before it explodes, so I'm probably going to have to keep it at 80A until I get a gigantic controller.

Mine will probably show up Monday. Now, I just need to wait for my snazzy swingarm to show up, and my commuter can start doing rolling burnouts past lycra.

What kind of speeds should I expect in a 26" on 24S LiPo, 120% throttle? I'd take 52-55.
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Re: New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

Postby Andje » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:08 pm

you will easily get that. With the 5304 and those settings I see between 55 and 60 mph.
Thanks for the picks Doc; i was foaming at the mouth to see it... Not dissapointed :)
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lyens 18 fet, 100v 100 amps, R12 Regen
x5304- 95km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24594
Norco A-Line Park 2009
144v Kelly 300amp
5403/ future HS60
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=35652
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Re: New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

Postby auraslip » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:23 pm

I'm kicking myself for not ordering on of those when I had the chance :(
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Re: New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

Postby Deutch420 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:24 pm

ZOMGVTEK wrote:What kind of speeds should I expect in a 26" on 24S LiPo, 120% throttle? I'd take 52-55.


I hope its a lot more than that.... My 5304 does exactly 52-55mph @ 100v 80amps. I would hope the 5403 will do mid 60's @ 100v 100amps.
GM Rear, Drill mod. 12FET Lyen @ 45A, 24s2p 100v 10ah LiPo. 1999 Mongoose = 49MPH.
Crystalyte 5304 rear 18FET lyen @ 80amps, 24s4p 100v 20ah LiPo. Kona Dawg = 52mph
Crystalyte 5403 rear 18FET Lyen @ 80amps, 24s4p 100v 20ah LiPo. Phasor frame = 58mph 100%, 62mph 120%
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Re: New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

Postby auraslip » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:37 pm

He gave you everything you need to simulate the motor in swblutos simulator. It's a great program!
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Re: New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

Postby Doctorbass » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:52 pm

ZOMGVTEK wrote:That's a big hub.

I wonder how much of a difference in efficiency this will be over my 1kW Golden, when its being fed 8kW. My little 12 FET is only good for about 9kW before it explodes, so I'm probably going to have to keep it at 80A until I get a gigantic controller.

Mine will probably show up Monday. Now, I just need to wait for my snazzy swingarm to show up, and my commuter can start doing rolling burnouts past lycra.

What kind of speeds should I expect in a 26" on 24S LiPo, 120% throttle? I'd take 52-55.


My 5303 and 25.5 inchs wheel ( maxxis 24 x 3.0) and 30s lipo and 11kW is exactly 113kmh ( 70mph)

With the added torque this motor give i expect to get the 80mph with 15kW continuous.

This motor will compete seriously with the cromotor i think. Yes it weight alot more.. but the new motor armature that contain more copper and more steel will be a great benefit !

Doc
________________
-Fastest speed record from now: 113 km/h measured on GPS
-Fastest ebike 106km/h on flat and managed to enter in the 19.875 sec on the 1/4 mile drag racing !
-0-70km/h in 5sec X5 5303 on 24"
TORQUE SETUP:
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
-Team Konion Member
113kmh Giant___http://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoose____http://www.evalbum.com/1947
E-trike_______ http://www.evalbum.com/3776
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english
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Re: New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

Postby ryan » Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:11 pm

As someone who just rewired the phase and halls for an x5304, how is it that these don't pinch and break more often?
Marin DH Electric Mountain Climber. Crystalyte 5304. 72v20Ah (Dual 36v20Ah 12S2P LiFePO4 Headways). 18 FET Low RDS MOSFET Overclocker Ready LYEN Controller. (See Build Thread)
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Re: New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

Postby Doctorbass » Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:52 pm

ryan wrote:As someone who just rewired the phase and halls for an x5304, how is it that these don't pinch and break more often?


I only had onw problem with the hall wires on a X5. these seem to be good and the room in the axel is enough to carry 3 x 10 gauge wires + 5 hall little wires.

If you take care to not pinch the wires, they will last as long as you keep the motor.

Doc
________________
-Fastest speed record from now: 113 km/h measured on GPS
-Fastest ebike 106km/h on flat and managed to enter in the 19.875 sec on the 1/4 mile drag racing !
-0-70km/h in 5sec X5 5303 on 24"
TORQUE SETUP:
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
-Team Konion Member
113kmh Giant___http://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoose____http://www.evalbum.com/1947
E-trike_______ http://www.evalbum.com/3776
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english
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Re: New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

Postby Doctorbass » Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:55 pm

I have tested the original 12 gauge teflon and the PP75 connector for fun.

I connected two of the phase wires using the stock PP75 connector and connected my 0-100A psu set to 50A.

After 5 minutes of continuous 50A current, the two 12gauge teflon wire of the hub motor came to 60 celsius wich is not bad !

Teflon melt at 260 celsius... :twisted:

Doc
________________
-Fastest speed record from now: 113 km/h measured on GPS
-Fastest ebike 106km/h on flat and managed to enter in the 19.875 sec on the 1/4 mile drag racing !
-0-70km/h in 5sec X5 5303 on 24"
TORQUE SETUP:
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
-Team Konion Member
113kmh Giant___http://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoose____http://www.evalbum.com/1947
E-trike_______ http://www.evalbum.com/3776
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english
User avatar
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Re: New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

Postby Accountant » Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:21 am

Tell us about the exact weight please.
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Re: New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

Postby ambroseliao » Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:05 am

Hey Doc, great information. Can you do a video of the motor running so that we can hear it at speed?

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Remember LiFEPo4 HVC is 3.65V and LVC is 2.7V
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Re: New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

Postby Doctorbass » Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:27 am

Accountant wrote:Tell us about the exact weight please.


The total weight is exactly 15kg ( 33pounds including the washers, nuts and axel spacers that's) that's 7.5 more pounds than the previous X5300 serie

Everythging look to be made STRONG on that motor!.. more copper, more steel etc. It will certainly take more time to overheat.... wich is perfect for drag race :twisted: :twisted:

I will run it once i will have upgarded the phase wires for 10 gauge one and also.

I have two plans with this one: running at 30s lipo on my kelly ( max 293A burst)

or running 20s lipo or 24s LiFePO4 A123 with my 36 fets EXTREME 4110 version ( expect 450A burst)

Doc
________________
-Fastest speed record from now: 113 km/h measured on GPS
-Fastest ebike 106km/h on flat and managed to enter in the 19.875 sec on the 1/4 mile drag racing !
-0-70km/h in 5sec X5 5303 on 24"
TORQUE SETUP:
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
-Team Konion Member
113kmh Giant___http://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoose____http://www.evalbum.com/1947
E-trike_______ http://www.evalbum.com/3776
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Re: New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

Postby Doctorbass » Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:42 am

Tehre is something that i dont understand:

I have looked at the previous pictures that LOWRACER posted about his 5404 motor and it look like his stator sides was compressed, making it narower and the motor magnet ring look like narrower too :|

Here is the one of Lowracer:` ( the 5404)
Image

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24805&hilit=5400




On mine the stator sides is not compressed and the rotor magnet ring is wider :|

Image


The overal motor i got is wider and the side covers are a trade off between the last gen X5 and the first gen X5 . It have the Hex screw really apparent adding width to the motor

Image


But his motor is really narrow with the screw and side cover narrower... and also it look like the overall width seem like 1.5cm narrower on the Lowracer motor :?

Image


Well.. this extra width can be considered as pros or cons... It can be used as extra room for installing better inside cooling... or it can be considered as difficult to fit in a bicycle swing arm...

I will contact Max about this important difference..

So that mean it exist TWO version of this 5400 serie motor....

Doc
________________
-Fastest speed record from now: 113 km/h measured on GPS
-Fastest ebike 106km/h on flat and managed to enter in the 19.875 sec on the 1/4 mile drag racing !
-0-70km/h in 5sec X5 5303 on 24"
TORQUE SETUP:
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
-Team Konion Member
113kmh Giant___http://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoose____http://www.evalbum.com/1947
E-trike_______ http://www.evalbum.com/3776
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english
User avatar
Doctorbass
100 GW
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Posts: 7137
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:24 am
Location: Quebec, Canada East

Re: New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

Postby Doctorbass » Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:52 am

According to this picture the winding is adding 6.5mm extra on both side of the stator ( 13mm for both side)

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=52793

Wich is 55mm total width for his stator...
You can see here how it was flattened after the compression:
Image


Here you can see the 6.5mm width of unwounded copper on each side
Image



On mine i measured: 64mm wich is 9mm wider!!! so on the Lowracer stator the winding is compressed by 4.5mm on each side! ( just like the last gen X5 was....


But on mine it's exactly like the previous gen X%.. uncompressed...

Image

Lowracer got a botor that weight 12kg INCLUDING THE RIM AND SPOKES
Image



Mine is 15kg MOtor ONLY.... WTF !! :shock:
________________
-Fastest speed record from now: 113 km/h measured on GPS
-Fastest ebike 106km/h on flat and managed to enter in the 19.875 sec on the 1/4 mile drag racing !
-0-70km/h in 5sec X5 5303 on 24"
TORQUE SETUP:
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
-Team Konion Member
113kmh Giant___http://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoose____http://www.evalbum.com/1947
E-trike_______ http://www.evalbum.com/3776
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english
User avatar
Doctorbass
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 7137
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:24 am
Location: Quebec, Canada East

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