New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

[Deutch420]

Do you have any idea why your axle stripped? Was the nut the correct size / thread pitch / cross thread? Did you over tighten it? I recently had a over tightening scare myself on one of my hub motors and thought for sure I killed the axle threads but I got lucky and only stripped the nut leaving the threads safe. I was crossing my fingers as I removed it that the threads on the axle were OK. I hope your machinist friend can get you back up and running fast. I think you are the first to get one of these up and running. 58mph is really hauling. Even if your machinist friend can't fix your axle for you, he should be able to design a clamping dropout for you that does not require a nut so not all hope is lost. It looks like you have quite a bit of axle sticking out to work with.

I have no idea why it stripped. I can only wish it was the nut, but i tried the nut on my other hub and it works great. In regards to "overtightening", i have tightened my other hubs MUCH more than this without issues. But i guess its possible. Either way, why on gods green earth is my axle material softer than my hardware?
My machinest is making new dropouts for me. He told me to come by with what i have. I went over to his shop on my bike. He looked at the bike for about 15 minutes and said "i have ideas". then he told me to come back tomorrow with the bike again for measurments b/c he was too busy to do it today. He has built many 6-7 second cars from the ground up. I trust him with my life. i normally have torque arms on both sides but for some reason they wouldnt fit on this axel.

If you want to up the voltage with that 26" wheel you are probably going to want a 36 FET IRFB4115 controller, I don't think a 24 FET will handle the amp demand that motor is going to require unless it's tweaked really well like I've been doing to my controller builds. Having the FETs matched for the same turn on voltage is critical for them to load share evenly, otherwise they can turn into FET popcorn. The more FETs your parallel the more critical the matching becomes. Even with the mods I do to my controllers I don't think I'll push my 36 FET controller much past 200A battery/250A pase and would stop at 150Abattery/200A phase on a 24 FET IRFB4115 setup, probably even less due to the extra load of it being a 26" tire vs the 20" tires I like to run. Your best bet might be to step up to one of the newer Kelley controllers or a even a Sevcon, but the Sevcons cost $1k and only go to something like 116V max (I just looked at one myself but can't justify the cost). Throttle control is amazing on it though.

Im not going to act like i know much about controllers. Ive opened one up before, but immediatly closed it back up due to mass confusion. Lyen has been VERY helpful and he is very confident that the 24fet 4115 will last if kept under 100amps. Ive given him all the details, 26" rim, speed winging etc.. He still says, 100amps and under, im fine. "200amps". LOL! I really have no desire to go above 100amps. I wonder how long a 135v 20ah pack would last at 200amps WOT. 5 minutes? But like i said earlier, i really dont know much about controllers. 200amps sounds really excessive to me. Im 100% fine with a reliable 135v 100amps.

[zombiess]

Please wear a helmet when you do stupid things like run 8kW on aluminum dropouts with no torque plates/arms.

You can survive a broken back, but a broken skull when you fall backwards is another story.

Yeah, helmet when falling backwards has saved my skull once. So glad I was wearing it on one of my high current test rides with my 9C when it decided to loop me hard.

[Deutch420]

I wear the Fox V3 Motocross helmet with gopro mount. It weighs a tad more than the mountain bike V3, but costs 250 instead of 400. less than 1 pound additional weight doesnt effect me on an ebike. The tasteful lightning bolt decals are fitting to the ebike too, i thought.

V3.jpg (39.14 KiB) Viewed 426 times

[Spicerack]

If your axle is screwed, why not consider a custom one like farfle's? Larger diameter, hollow so all the wires can pass inside it and then clamp it motorbike style with the new welded on clamping dropouts with a pin/bolt screwed through straight through the axle to stop it spinning?

Bit of financial pain but a much better solution in the long run.

[zombiess]

Im not going to act like i know much about controllers. Ive opened one up before, but immediatly closed it back up due to mass confusion. Lyen has been VERY helpful and he is very confident that the 24fet 4115 will last if kept under 100amps. Ive given him all the details, 26" rim, speed winging etc.. He still says, 100amps and under, im fine. "200amps". LOL! I really have no desire to go above 100amps. I wonder how long a 135v 20ah pack would last at 200amps WOT. 5 minutes? But like i said earlier, i really dont know much about controllers. 200amps sounds really excessive to me. Im 100% fine with a reliable 135v 100amps.

They are just the burst numbers held for a few seconds until the BEMF zone is reached and the amps start tapering off, but 26" wheels and fast wind motors can take quite a bit of amps to get going. It's really the phase amp settings you need to worry about since that's what the controller feels. If Lyen says under 100A is OK then you should be fine, he has lots of experience, just double check with him what the phase amps should be and don't exceed them, block time should probably be brought down to 0.1S from 1.0S. I just tend to push my controllers a bit since I know roughly where the safe zones are on them from monitoring them, but they are heavily modded

Another thing to check is to see if 100A at 135V in a 26" tire will get you into BEMF area where your current will drop. I don't think it will be, but I could be wrong. A smaller diameter tire really helps cut back on the amount of amps needed to keep the motor up to speed and gives a major boost in acceleration, just something to think about.

[Andje]

Andje wrote:
well that is interesting; on a 26 inch rim and 100v80amps I also get about 58mph exactly out of my 5304.
I'm 52mph on flat ground with no wind on my 5304 @ 100v 80amps. About 700 miles on that setup. I have no idea how your seeing 58mph out of a 5304 100v flat ground. Are you sure you didn't mean 5303? Or maybe I have a bumm 5304? My numbers seem to match others..? Looks like I'm going to be forced to downgrade back to my 5304..

I'll check my CA speedo calibration to be sure, but I can for sure say I get more then 53mph out of my 5304; i was recently speed trapped and they got me at 73km/h, I think my speedo said more like 76km/h but you cant know when they got the measurement. Not a lot, we are after all quibbling about 5mph total. I have one of the old non-disk 5304's, 26 inch rim with Kenda Flames 3.0 tires; the small difference could be overall circumference giving higher top speed. Your top speed will also in practice be limited by voltage sag under load, and yes that was hit going down a hill where the minimum current draw was required to go faster, resulting in the highest voltage possible for the run, around 98 volts. But I can certainly hit 90+ km/h on flat, I've done it on video. No idea why either; I'm not trying to argue with the simulator, just posting my real world results. I don't have a proper comparison between a calibrated stationary source and my CA, so I leave room in my analysis for error.
My original point was merely the coincidental comparable numbers. The wider stator and same wind should naturally make the 5403 a little slower then the 5303, right? So it would be interesting if that slower speed fit right into the groove of the current 5304, just due to coincidence.

[John in CR]

Also, I wish everyone the best luck with their axle threads. Mine peeled off like onion rings. Weird part is the threads on the bottom of the axle are fine. The threads on the top of the axel are for the most part all gone. Hub is un-usable now as i cannot tighten the axel bolts. Hope I got a bad axle and this isn't the case for everyone. If i was careless and accidently cross threaded the axle, than the top and bottom would be ruined which is not the case. Machinest is going to have to remove some material, add weld, then re- thread it. If that doesn't work I'll need a new axle. Woot. I hope this isn't the case for everyone..

The fix is quite easy. Use nice thick clamping dropouts and axle nuts are just decoration.

[Doctorbass]

I have an idea about cooling this beast.

maybe... liquidcooled

Now the question remain: Where to install the inlet and outlet tubing on the axel?

Since it is nearly impossible to install these tubes on teh same side of the phase wires, i think it would be possible on the other side of the axel ... on the side of the freewheel !

The bearing on this side is smaller but the side cover can allow larger diameter bearing as well !

Ii would use the same bearing size on both side!.. (the bearing of the disk brake side cover)

There is a large enough portion of the axel on the 5400 serie that can support both bearing due to the higer diameter that cover suffisent lengh to reach both bearing with 25mm inner diameter!

The plan would be to reduce the width of the magnet ring ( rotor) by 10mm total ( 5 on each side) allowing 2mm clearance between the stator winding and each side cover interior.

That leave 10 more mm of axel forable to support the bearing!.. so i would just offset the axel so that the freewheel side cover with the larger bearing will be suported by the right diameter of axel.

I know i'm not so well in english to explain complex 3D idea but i guess you know what i mean!

So using this larger bering and making the groove in the axel for two 1/4 OD pipe could be the solution!

Than, covering the interior of the motor stator with copper pipe would sink that heat out of the motor thru the outlet pipe!. I guess that wioth the suffisent flow rate, this would make possible to evacuate 2000W of power thru a 3/16" diameter liquid flow? I ned to make soe calculations based on my previous tests for liquid cooled 36 fets controller.

Doc

[nicobie]

Have you checked stock? out of the box?

[wojtek]

Also, I wish everyone the best luck with their axle threads. Mine peeled off like onion rings. Weird part is the threads on the bottom of the axle are fine. The threads on the top of the axel are for the most part all gone. Hub is un-usable now as i cannot tighten the axel bolts. Hope I got a bad axle and this isn't the case for everyone. If i was careless and accidently cross threaded the axle, than the top and bottom would be ruined which is not the case. Machinest is going to have to remove some material, add weld, then re- thread it. If that doesn't work I'll need a new axle. Woot. I hope this isn't the case for everyone..

unfortunately it is for me too

only on one side upper thread - indeed goes like onion!

[dnmun]

@ deutch and wojtek, rather than build up the axle again where the threads were torn off, why not just file it down round enuff to cut new threads of a smaller diameter. maybe go to SAE threads if they are just a little smaller. then instead of using the big nut that comes with the axle, buy a threaded coupling sleeve with as many threads as possible on the end of the axle engaged. and use a big flat washer where it torques up against the frame. you can tighten the coupling with a pipe wrench if there are no flats on it, but that will reduce the load on the individual threads and allow you to torque it down tight too. BOL.

[cassschr1]

They make coupler nuts. There quite long. Couple inches. There used to extend threaded rod past 10' lengths.I would think they are avaliable in metric all so, but don't know if in the required thread pitch. Good idea Dnmum.

[superz1983]

I have an idea about cooling this beast.

Why not with oil inside?
and maybe some cooling fins outside...

[Deutch420]

Quick update. Both sides of my axels are stripped on ONLY the top axel threads. The bottom threads are fine. Reused the hardware on my 5304 and it works fine. This means my axle material is softer than my axel nuts.
I seriously hope this isn't the case for everyone. I will never, ever buy anything from Crystalyte again.
Looks like I'm back to my good ol' 5304 until I can get pinching dropouts or a new axel. Whopping 4 miles and 2 installs on the hub, already needs new axel. Lmao

[flathill]

Also, I wish everyone the best luck with their axle threads. Mine peeled off like onion rings. Weird part is the threads on the bottom of the axle are fine. The threads on the top of the axel are for the most part all gone. Hub is un-usable now as i cannot tighten the axel bolts. Hope I got a bad axle and this isn't the case for everyone. If i was careless and accidently cross threaded the axle, than the top and bottom would be ruined which is not the case. Machinest is going to have to remove some material, add weld, then re- thread it. If that doesn't work I'll need a new axle. Woot. I hope this isn't the case for everyone..

That sucks but I'm not surprised. I've seen a video of a hub motor factory in china and they were casting the side covers themselves using scrap metal. It's actually pretty admirable what the are able to accomplish with so little in some instances! But sometimes you wonder if it is just a case of extreme cheapness not necessity. I would make a new axle out of a bridge bolt like lowracer. He noted the stock axle wasnt up to his standards. I've heard two opposed versions of hub motor export story from china, either they keep the best for themselves or the domestric motors are actually even lower quality.

[ryan]

Just busted a hall sensor on my new 5404. Recording it here for reference and catharsis.

[Deutch420]

unfortunately it is for me too

only on one side upper thread - indeed goes like onion!

Oh no! Not good. Top threads only too?... wow.

I plan to add weld and re-thread.

I hope everyone that got these hubs finds a way to secure them. Axle bolts losening up = potential epic fail.

Go Crystalyte!

[flathill]

unfortunately it is for me too

only on one side upper thread - indeed goes like onion!

Oh no! Not good. Top threads only too?... wow.

I plan to add weld and re-thread.

I hope everyone that got these hubs finds a way to secure them. Axle bolts losening up = potential epic fail.

Go Crystalyte!

Epic fail is right. At least the cromotor has the 16mm axles back. I was going to pick up a x54 locally here in SF but the order was delayed another two months to ebikesf....maybe we know the reason
I wouldnt want to sell this motor to the public

now it looks like its going to be a cromotor even if the x54 turns out to be more powerful

[Doctorbass]

Dont forget that the axel nut MUST only be used to support the wheel .. not the torque!

The torque MUST be supported ONLY by the flat side of the axel

So thightening the nut must be done in a way it dont allow the wheel to come off the dropout nothing else!

Please let keep this thread related to the 5400 motor serie and review only.

Doc

[oatnet]

Ya know, didn't zombiess just post that they were replacing the axles on the latest batch of CroMotor from a similar failure? Wonder if the axles were sourced from the same place...

[zombiess]

Ya know, didn't zombiess just post that they were replacing the axles on the latest batch of CroMotor from a similar failure? Wonder if the axles were sourced from the same place...

Nope, totally different axle issue. Manufacturer didn't follow the design given to them (huge surprise) and then installed the axles wire outlet in a way that causes some setups to pinch the wires against the drop out causing them to short/cut. They were also supposed to be 16mm from the manufacturer in the first place just like the first batch sold months ago.

Gotta love Chinese manufacturing and their QC.

Looks like everyone got burned by axle issues I hope these incidents are isolated for everyone who put down their hard earned money.

[Hyena]

This is very concerning after all the hard work that we put into making this order happen. I'd like to play wishful thinking and hope it was a few isolated cases but given this was a custom order it's almost certainly going to apply to the whole batch Looks like we have axles made from CCSA - chinese cheese-steel alloy!

[oatnet]

Looks like we have axles made from CCSA - chinese cheese-steel alloy!

Would you say it is more of a Gouda or a Brie? I think it is important that we use nuts of the same cheese technology, and I have chinese source for Gouda-steel, but my Brie-steel guy got executed for shoddy product.

So Kenny's revenge for pushing for the 54xx instead? Too bad, you never know what you are gonna get when you buy from China, but it's always an opportunity to learn how to fix something new. Group buy on replacement axles?

-JD

[dnmun]

i know doc doesn't want me on the thread, but why not see if you can find a coupling that has the 12mmx1.25 threads and use that from the start. the nuts are oversized too i bet so the more threads you can put into the collar, the less the stress on each thread and less chance of stripping it. actually do it from the first, once the nut has damaged the threads on the axle, then the collar would be cross threaded. sorry doc.

[auraslip]

I don't know why you guys think axles need to be made from hard steel. These are motorcycle and scooter powered hubs. It's stupid to think that simply torquing a nut down is going to be good enough. It's a fail method for securing a motor. With the proper clamping setup like what proper vehicles use, even soft steel axles are totally fine.

edit: i just realized this is sort of a slight towards doc torque arms because they're made from super hard steel. I have ordered them for my next build, but I plan to drill them out and make them clamping like this:



DOC. ARE YOU LISTENING? YOU COULD MAKE THESE FROM CHEAP STEEL FOR LESS AND THEY'D STILL WORK GREAT! JUST DO WHAT KENYE HAS DONE HERE!

ANY BEST OF ALL NO ONE WOULD EVER HAVE TO DEAL WITH AXLE NUTS AGAIN.