New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

[Andje]

Andje wrote:
well that is interesting; on a 26 inch rim and 100v80amps I also get about 58mph exactly out of my 5304.
I'm 52mph on flat ground with no wind on my 5304 @ 100v 80amps. About 700 miles on that setup. I have no idea how your seeing 58mph out of a 5304 100v flat ground. Are you sure you didn't mean 5303? Or maybe I have a bumm 5304? My numbers seem to match others..? Looks like I'm going to be forced to downgrade back to my 5304..

I'll check my CA speedo calibration to be sure, but I can for sure say I get more then 53mph out of my 5304; i was recently speed trapped and they got me at 73km/h, I think my speedo said more like 76km/h but you cant know when they got the measurement. Not a lot, we are after all quibbling about 5mph total. I have one of the old non-disk 5304's, 26 inch rim with Kenda Flames 3.0 tires; the small difference could be overall circumference giving higher top speed. Your top speed will also in practice be limited by voltage sag under load, and yes that was hit going down a hill where the minimum current draw was required to go faster, resulting in the highest voltage possible for the run, around 98 volts. But I can certainly hit 90+ km/h on flat, I've done it on video. No idea why either; I'm not trying to argue with the simulator, just posting my real world results. I don't have a proper comparison between a calibrated stationary source and my CA, so I leave room in my analysis for error.
My original point was merely the coincidental comparable numbers. The wider stator and same wind should naturally make the 5403 a little slower then the 5303, right? So it would be interesting if that slower speed fit right into the groove of the current 5304, just due to coincidence.

[John in CR]

Also, I wish everyone the best luck with their axle threads. Mine peeled off like onion rings. Weird part is the threads on the bottom of the axle are fine. The threads on the top of the axel are for the most part all gone. Hub is un-usable now as i cannot tighten the axel bolts. Hope I got a bad axle and this isn't the case for everyone. If i was careless and accidently cross threaded the axle, than the top and bottom would be ruined which is not the case. Machinest is going to have to remove some material, add weld, then re- thread it. If that doesn't work I'll need a new axle. Woot. I hope this isn't the case for everyone..

The fix is quite easy. Use nice thick clamping dropouts and axle nuts are just decoration.

[Doctorbass]

I have an idea about cooling this beast.

maybe... liquidcooled

Now the question remain: Where to install the inlet and outlet tubing on the axel?

Since it is nearly impossible to install these tubes on teh same side of the phase wires, i think it would be possible on the other side of the axel ... on the side of the freewheel !

The bearing on this side is smaller but the side cover can allow larger diameter bearing as well !

Ii would use the same bearing size on both side!.. (the bearing of the disk brake side cover)

There is a large enough portion of the axel on the 5400 serie that can support both bearing due to the higer diameter that cover suffisent lengh to reach both bearing with 25mm inner diameter!

The plan would be to reduce the width of the magnet ring ( rotor) by 10mm total ( 5 on each side) allowing 2mm clearance between the stator winding and each side cover interior.

That leave 10 more mm of axel forable to support the bearing!.. so i would just offset the axel so that the freewheel side cover with the larger bearing will be suported by the right diameter of axel.

I know i'm not so well in english to explain complex 3D idea but i guess you know what i mean!

So using this larger bering and making the groove in the axel for two 1/4 OD pipe could be the solution!

Than, covering the interior of the motor stator with copper pipe would sink that heat out of the motor thru the outlet pipe!. I guess that wioth the suffisent flow rate, this would make possible to evacuate 2000W of power thru a 3/16" diameter liquid flow? I ned to make soe calculations based on my previous tests for liquid cooled 36 fets controller.

Doc

[nicobie]

Have you checked stock? out of the box?

[wojtek]

Also, I wish everyone the best luck with their axle threads. Mine peeled off like onion rings. Weird part is the threads on the bottom of the axle are fine. The threads on the top of the axel are for the most part all gone. Hub is un-usable now as i cannot tighten the axel bolts. Hope I got a bad axle and this isn't the case for everyone. If i was careless and accidently cross threaded the axle, than the top and bottom would be ruined which is not the case. Machinest is going to have to remove some material, add weld, then re- thread it. If that doesn't work I'll need a new axle. Woot. I hope this isn't the case for everyone..

unfortunately it is for me too

only on one side upper thread - indeed goes like onion!

[dnmun]

@ deutch and wojtek, rather than build up the axle again where the threads were torn off, why not just file it down round enuff to cut new threads of a smaller diameter. maybe go to SAE threads if they are just a little smaller. then instead of using the big nut that comes with the axle, buy a threaded coupling sleeve with as many threads as possible on the end of the axle engaged. and use a big flat washer where it torques up against the frame. you can tighten the coupling with a pipe wrench if there are no flats on it, but that will reduce the load on the individual threads and allow you to torque it down tight too. BOL.

[cassschr1]

They make coupler nuts. There quite long. Couple inches. There used to extend threaded rod past 10' lengths.I would think they are avaliable in metric all so, but don't know if in the required thread pitch. Good idea Dnmum.

[superz1983]

I have an idea about cooling this beast.

Why not with oil inside?
and maybe some cooling fins outside...

[Deutch420]

Quick update. Both sides of my axels are stripped on ONLY the top axel threads. The bottom threads are fine. Reused the hardware on my 5304 and it works fine. This means my axle material is softer than my axel nuts.
I seriously hope this isn't the case for everyone. I will never, ever buy anything from Crystalyte again.
Looks like I'm back to my good ol' 5304 until I can get pinching dropouts or a new axel. Whopping 4 miles and 2 installs on the hub, already needs new axel. Lmao

[flathill]

Also, I wish everyone the best luck with their axle threads. Mine peeled off like onion rings. Weird part is the threads on the bottom of the axle are fine. The threads on the top of the axel are for the most part all gone. Hub is un-usable now as i cannot tighten the axel bolts. Hope I got a bad axle and this isn't the case for everyone. If i was careless and accidently cross threaded the axle, than the top and bottom would be ruined which is not the case. Machinest is going to have to remove some material, add weld, then re- thread it. If that doesn't work I'll need a new axle. Woot. I hope this isn't the case for everyone..

That sucks but I'm not surprised. I've seen a video of a hub motor factory in china and they were casting the side covers themselves using scrap metal. It's actually pretty admirable what the are able to accomplish with so little in some instances! But sometimes you wonder if it is just a case of extreme cheapness not necessity. I would make a new axle out of a bridge bolt like lowracer. He noted the stock axle wasnt up to his standards. I've heard two opposed versions of hub motor export story from china, either they keep the best for themselves or the domestric motors are actually even lower quality.

[ryan]

Just busted a hall sensor on my new 5404. Recording it here for reference and catharsis.

[Deutch420]

unfortunately it is for me too

only on one side upper thread - indeed goes like onion!

Oh no! Not good. Top threads only too?... wow.

I plan to add weld and re-thread.

I hope everyone that got these hubs finds a way to secure them. Axle bolts losening up = potential epic fail.

Go Crystalyte!

[flathill]

unfortunately it is for me too

only on one side upper thread - indeed goes like onion!

Oh no! Not good. Top threads only too?... wow.

I plan to add weld and re-thread.

I hope everyone that got these hubs finds a way to secure them. Axle bolts losening up = potential epic fail.

Go Crystalyte!

Epic fail is right. At least the cromotor has the 16mm axles back. I was going to pick up a x54 locally here in SF but the order was delayed another two months to ebikesf....maybe we know the reason
I wouldnt want to sell this motor to the public

now it looks like its going to be a cromotor even if the x54 turns out to be more powerful

[Doctorbass]

Dont forget that the axel nut MUST only be used to support the wheel .. not the torque!

The torque MUST be supported ONLY by the flat side of the axel

So thightening the nut must be done in a way it dont allow the wheel to come off the dropout nothing else!

Please let keep this thread related to the 5400 motor serie and review only.

Doc

[oatnet]

Ya know, didn't zombiess just post that they were replacing the axles on the latest batch of CroMotor from a similar failure? Wonder if the axles were sourced from the same place...

[zombiess]

Ya know, didn't zombiess just post that they were replacing the axles on the latest batch of CroMotor from a similar failure? Wonder if the axles were sourced from the same place...

Nope, totally different axle issue. Manufacturer didn't follow the design given to them (huge surprise) and then installed the axles wire outlet in a way that causes some setups to pinch the wires against the drop out causing them to short/cut. They were also supposed to be 16mm from the manufacturer in the first place just like the first batch sold months ago.

Gotta love Chinese manufacturing and their QC.

Looks like everyone got burned by axle issues I hope these incidents are isolated for everyone who put down their hard earned money.

[Hyena]

This is very concerning after all the hard work that we put into making this order happen. I'd like to play wishful thinking and hope it was a few isolated cases but given this was a custom order it's almost certainly going to apply to the whole batch Looks like we have axles made from CCSA - chinese cheese-steel alloy!

[oatnet]

Looks like we have axles made from CCSA - chinese cheese-steel alloy!

Would you say it is more of a Gouda or a Brie? I think it is important that we use nuts of the same cheese technology, and I have chinese source for Gouda-steel, but my Brie-steel guy got executed for shoddy product.

So Kenny's revenge for pushing for the 54xx instead? Too bad, you never know what you are gonna get when you buy from China, but it's always an opportunity to learn how to fix something new. Group buy on replacement axles?

-JD

[dnmun]

i know doc doesn't want me on the thread, but why not see if you can find a coupling that has the 12mmx1.25 threads and use that from the start. the nuts are oversized too i bet so the more threads you can put into the collar, the less the stress on each thread and less chance of stripping it. actually do it from the first, once the nut has damaged the threads on the axle, then the collar would be cross threaded. sorry doc.

[auraslip]

I don't know why you guys think axles need to be made from hard steel. These are motorcycle and scooter powered hubs. It's stupid to think that simply torquing a nut down is going to be good enough. It's a fail method for securing a motor. With the proper clamping setup like what proper vehicles use, even soft steel axles are totally fine.

edit: i just realized this is sort of a slight towards doc torque arms because they're made from super hard steel. I have ordered them for my next build, but I plan to drill them out and make them clamping like this:



DOC. ARE YOU LISTENING? YOU COULD MAKE THESE FROM CHEAP STEEL FOR LESS AND THEY'D STILL WORK GREAT! JUST DO WHAT KENYE HAS DONE HERE!

ANY BEST OF ALL NO ONE WOULD EVER HAVE TO DEAL WITH AXLE NUTS AGAIN.

[Doctorbass]

I don't know why you guys think axles need to be made from hard steel. These are motorcycle and scooter powered hubs. It's stupid to think that simply torquing a nut down is going to be good enough. It's a fail method for securing a motor. With the proper clamping setup like what proper vehicles use, even soft steel axles are totally fine.

edit: i just realized this is sort of a slight towards doc torque arms because they're made from super hard steel. I have ordered them for my next build, but I plan to drill them out and make them clamping like this:



DOC. ARE YOU LISTENING? YOU COULD MAKE THESE FROM CHEAP STEEL FOR LESS AND THEY'D STILL WORK GREAT! JUST DO WHAT KENYE HAS DONE HERE!

ANY BEST OF ALL NO ONE WOULD EVER HAVE TO DEAL WITH AXLE NUTS AGAIN.

Simply because it is WORKING fine already

What i think you dont understand is that the hard steel IS CHOOSED for an IMPORTANT reason!.. the axel edge that is at 6mm from the center of the axel is applying couples of TONS pressure on the Torque arm flat area!... and soft steel would just deform just like aluminum do over the time.

The MPa of that steel is nothing to have with any other steel !.. it just dont have any deformations.

I see the picture is showing a really similar installation than mine on the DH comp.

The desing you suggest would just cost more due to the more complex drawing and the need to make threads and holes for the screw wol;d make more labor and $$$ would raise as well.

The option i'm offering is simple, work well and as well, cheaper than any other torque arm option because you get TWO torque arm made of the hardest steel for that price!

I also never had complaint about the hundreds i sold from now

Doc

[auraslip]

A 1/4" of clamped steel on both sides won't deform. The axle will first.

What I am worried about is the non-clamped steel in your torque arm eventually deform from repeated acceleration and regen cycles. Probably nothing to worry about though because you use such high quality steel.

Stripped threads though - that's a problem you won't have with a clamping drop out. Worrying about spacing - that's another problem you don't have to worry about. Having to remove connectors to swap out axle hardware - another problem you don't have to worry about. It solves a lot of problems!

With soft steel, how much extra work would it really take to drill it out and tap it? Your time is probably worth more than cost savings from using cheaper steel would net though.

I also never had complaint about the hundreds i sold from now

"If I gave the public what they wanted, I would be making a better horse drawn carriage"

- henry ford

[wojtek]

how about you start offering those with clamped mild steel? and kick Doc out of the market
if they really prove themselves to work better and cost less...

[wojtek]

I removed the plastic piece. The black spacers provided must be used. The dropouts on your bike will squeeze the hub without them and it will not spin.

very good point!!!!

[Doctorbass]

how about you start offering those with clamped mild steel? and kick Doc out of the market
if they really prove themselves to work better and cost less...

I have absolutly no problem with that wojtek .. i'm offering this great torque arm solution to help people more than to make money. All T-A set i'm selling take around half an hour of work if i count everything until they are shipped.

I wanted to just make oen simple batch when i decided to make them because my goal was to get the torque arm i want and that i judge they are as strong as my stuff require and to offer the balance to absorbe the cosst for the minimum qty required for the purchase of order.

Than i received demand for those and once the batch was soldout, i still receive demand for those
i'm at the 7th batch from now and still get demand for those

I got many customs desing demand for different axel size etc.. but my goal is not to become the Torquearmman... it is to help people first and finding solution at the lowest cost and work required as possible.


Doc