New Crystalyte 5403 Review by Doc

[zombiess]

Ya know, didn't zombiess just post that they were replacing the axles on the latest batch of CroMotor from a similar failure? Wonder if the axles were sourced from the same place...

Nope, totally different axle issue. Manufacturer didn't follow the design given to them (huge surprise) and then installed the axles wire outlet in a way that causes some setups to pinch the wires against the drop out causing them to short/cut. They were also supposed to be 16mm from the manufacturer in the first place just like the first batch sold months ago.

Gotta love Chinese manufacturing and their QC.

Looks like everyone got burned by axle issues I hope these incidents are isolated for everyone who put down their hard earned money.

[Hyena]

This is very concerning after all the hard work that we put into making this order happen. I'd like to play wishful thinking and hope it was a few isolated cases but given this was a custom order it's almost certainly going to apply to the whole batch Looks like we have axles made from CCSA - chinese cheese-steel alloy!

[oatnet]

Looks like we have axles made from CCSA - chinese cheese-steel alloy!

Would you say it is more of a Gouda or a Brie? I think it is important that we use nuts of the same cheese technology, and I have chinese source for Gouda-steel, but my Brie-steel guy got executed for shoddy product.

So Kenny's revenge for pushing for the 54xx instead? Too bad, you never know what you are gonna get when you buy from China, but it's always an opportunity to learn how to fix something new. Group buy on replacement axles?

-JD

[dnmun]

i know doc doesn't want me on the thread, but why not see if you can find a coupling that has the 12mmx1.25 threads and use that from the start. the nuts are oversized too i bet so the more threads you can put into the collar, the less the stress on each thread and less chance of stripping it. actually do it from the first, once the nut has damaged the threads on the axle, then the collar would be cross threaded. sorry doc.

[auraslip]

I don't know why you guys think axles need to be made from hard steel. These are motorcycle and scooter powered hubs. It's stupid to think that simply torquing a nut down is going to be good enough. It's a fail method for securing a motor. With the proper clamping setup like what proper vehicles use, even soft steel axles are totally fine.

edit: i just realized this is sort of a slight towards doc torque arms because they're made from super hard steel. I have ordered them for my next build, but I plan to drill them out and make them clamping like this:



DOC. ARE YOU LISTENING? YOU COULD MAKE THESE FROM CHEAP STEEL FOR LESS AND THEY'D STILL WORK GREAT! JUST DO WHAT KENYE HAS DONE HERE!

ANY BEST OF ALL NO ONE WOULD EVER HAVE TO DEAL WITH AXLE NUTS AGAIN.

[Doctorbass]

I don't know why you guys think axles need to be made from hard steel. These are motorcycle and scooter powered hubs. It's stupid to think that simply torquing a nut down is going to be good enough. It's a fail method for securing a motor. With the proper clamping setup like what proper vehicles use, even soft steel axles are totally fine.

edit: i just realized this is sort of a slight towards doc torque arms because they're made from super hard steel. I have ordered them for my next build, but I plan to drill them out and make them clamping like this:



DOC. ARE YOU LISTENING? YOU COULD MAKE THESE FROM CHEAP STEEL FOR LESS AND THEY'D STILL WORK GREAT! JUST DO WHAT KENYE HAS DONE HERE!

ANY BEST OF ALL NO ONE WOULD EVER HAVE TO DEAL WITH AXLE NUTS AGAIN.

Simply because it is WORKING fine already

What i think you dont understand is that the hard steel IS CHOOSED for an IMPORTANT reason!.. the axel edge that is at 6mm from the center of the axel is applying couples of TONS pressure on the Torque arm flat area!... and soft steel would just deform just like aluminum do over the time.

The MPa of that steel is nothing to have with any other steel !.. it just dont have any deformations.

I see the picture is showing a really similar installation than mine on the DH comp.

The desing you suggest would just cost more due to the more complex drawing and the need to make threads and holes for the screw wol;d make more labor and $$$ would raise as well.

The option i'm offering is simple, work well and as well, cheaper than any other torque arm option because you get TWO torque arm made of the hardest steel for that price!

I also never had complaint about the hundreds i sold from now

Doc

[auraslip]

A 1/4" of clamped steel on both sides won't deform. The axle will first.

What I am worried about is the non-clamped steel in your torque arm eventually deform from repeated acceleration and regen cycles. Probably nothing to worry about though because you use such high quality steel.

Stripped threads though - that's a problem you won't have with a clamping drop out. Worrying about spacing - that's another problem you don't have to worry about. Having to remove connectors to swap out axle hardware - another problem you don't have to worry about. It solves a lot of problems!

With soft steel, how much extra work would it really take to drill it out and tap it? Your time is probably worth more than cost savings from using cheaper steel would net though.

I also never had complaint about the hundreds i sold from now

"If I gave the public what they wanted, I would be making a better horse drawn carriage"

- henry ford

[wojtek]

how about you start offering those with clamped mild steel? and kick Doc out of the market
if they really prove themselves to work better and cost less...

[wojtek]

I removed the plastic piece. The black spacers provided must be used. The dropouts on your bike will squeeze the hub without them and it will not spin.

very good point!!!!

[Doctorbass]

how about you start offering those with clamped mild steel? and kick Doc out of the market
if they really prove themselves to work better and cost less...

I have absolutly no problem with that wojtek .. i'm offering this great torque arm solution to help people more than to make money. All T-A set i'm selling take around half an hour of work if i count everything until they are shipped.

I wanted to just make oen simple batch when i decided to make them because my goal was to get the torque arm i want and that i judge they are as strong as my stuff require and to offer the balance to absorbe the cosst for the minimum qty required for the purchase of order.

Than i received demand for those and once the batch was soldout, i still receive demand for those
i'm at the 7th batch from now and still get demand for those

I got many customs desing demand for different axel size etc.. but my goal is not to become the Torquearmman... it is to help people first and finding solution at the lowest cost and work required as possible.


Doc

[Doctorbass]

I dont want to go too far from teh original thread with these axel discussions here but i must talk about this:

Often people that have problem with the axel nuts becoming loose dont understand that When torquing the nut, if they put the torque arm on the outside of the dropout, that mean the axel will apply pressure against the aluminum or cromoly dropout or on the other side wich is softer than the troque arm itself and over the time it will stress and make the nut to loosen.

That’s why I recommend to have the 135 or 150mm clearance of the axel to be directly against the troque arm and not on the bike frame first. So by that way when you thighten the nut, the axel stop will be sitting directly against the torque arm hard metal and not the soft actual bicycle dropout!. Often the axel stop is not really offering a large enough surface and is only couples of square mm, plus, sometime it also have an edge that is 45 degree angled, reducing the contact surface against the dropout.

The axel nut is offering a larger surface and must sit on the softer part of the dropout.

Just remind that you must think about pressure wich is a force applied on a surface. The less surface the more hard the dropout must be and with the torque arm I’m offering, there is no more problem with that if you place them INSIDE the actual dropout… but it will require bending a little the frame wich is never a problem for the low angle it represent.

Doc

[deVries]

This is very concerning after all the hard work that we put into making this order happen. I'd like to play wishful thinking and hope it was a few isolated cases but given this was a custom order it's almost certainly going to apply to the whole batch Looks like we have axles made from CCSA - chinese cheese-steel alloy!

Guys, really sad to read this news... Maybe try to enlist someone such as Farfle?

Click Link Below...

FARFLE Made X5 Axles for ES Members

[wojtek]

well i got 2 motors, one seems totally fine. so hopefully it does not concern all of them. lets wait and see and not worry in advance!

[Hyena]

I can get custom axles made too if the need arises.
I was going to do one for my own purposes just so I can run bigger again phase wires + temp sensors etc and pump rediculous power but if they're going to start failing I can get others made. This is probably more of interest to Aussie members but if OS guys want to pay postage I'm happy to send them. No idea of costs yet - lets wait and see if it's actually necessary!

BTW, Doc or anyone else - have you guys laced these to other rims yet ? What flange spacing and and hub flange diameter are you using for the spoke calc ?

[Doctorbass]

I can get custom axles made too if the need arises.
I was going to do one for my own purposes just so I can run bigger again phase wires + temp sensors etc and pump rediculous power but if they're going to start failing I can get others made. This is probably more of interest to Aussie members but if OS guys want to pay postage I'm happy to send them. No idea of costs yet - lets wait and see if it's actually necessary!

BTW, Doc or anyone else - have you guys laced these to other rims yet ? What flange spacing and and hub flange diameter are you using for the spoke calc ?

Not laced yet.. my notor is still dissassembled for future machining for extreme mod

With the picture i posted at the begining of the thread you will be able to get nearly all dimensions you need

Doc

[Farfle]

Guys, really sad to read this news... Maybe try to enlist someone such as Farfle?

Click Link Below...

FARFLE Made X5 Axles for ES Members

I don't think I can handle that many axles guys, not while still delivering a quality product, i'm only one man with a lathe, and for one axle, even if I do them assembly line style, still takes still 3 hours per. And with 12 credits and a 20 hour a week job, there's not enough time to do it.

[Andje]

5403 rim.PNG (14.46 KiB) Viewed 864 times

Here are my calculations using the sheldon brown program and a mavic EX721 with an ERD of 535. 158mm spokes for a single cross.

[scriewy]

huh, interesting.

i came for a question and got this surprise

anywho, maybe while instaling you guys from the overwhelming crazy STUPID POWER of the motor become frantic & overly excited thus OVERWHELMINGLY start drooling & tightening the nuts and strip the threads ?

i came to conclusion to tighten at about 40-50N, and the rest is upto the torque arm/s, because if you remember from justins tests the nut was loosened newton for newton of tightening the nut by hand, you tighten 30N, it was loosened by amps equating to 30N, tighten 60N - was loosened by amps equating to 60N, and if i recall threads stripped at 100N.

so no point tightening over 60N if you run above 40A, leave it to the toque arm/s.
for lovers of a quicky job if you'l use 15cm long wrench, applying a dead weight (or with your hand) 20kg pressure at the end will give 30N
30kg = 45N
40kg = 60N
if i didn't mistook anything 2 years ago.

doc or any 1 ells ! the question, what is minimum gear puller needed to open 540x, is 6' enough (150mm arms), or need 8' ?

and what about all the users who got original stealth bikes, no axle issues alike ?

i think nikobie offered machining HS axles not long ago.

farfle there's no time limit, 1 axle per day is cool, and no schedule which other day to devote for an axle.

[Evoforce]

Hi all! A thread has been started in the ebike general discussion titled 5404/5403 The good The bad The ugly. That is a thread designed for everyone to comment, brag, point out issues, show work arounds, point out places for supplies to go with these motors, show what you are doing etc... In this way we do not have to clog up docs review thread with related but a different scope. See ya there... Good job on the review Doc, keep it coming!

[oatnet]

Hi all! A thread has been started in the ebike general discussion titled 5404/5403 The good The bad The ugly. That is a thread designed for everyone to comment, brag, point out issues, show work arounds, point out places for supplies to go with these motors, show what you are doing etc... In this way we do not have to clog up docs review thread with related but a different scope. See ya there... Good job on the review Doc, keep it coming!

This thread was already serving that purpose, and it has all the details since we got the motors about a month ago. When you start directing people to your new thread, people lose that history, miss out on the warnings about the axle threads and plastic cover etc. It kinda confuses things, because now there are two threads to keep track of.

I don't think anyone is worried about scope, conversations happen where they happen, and IMO the best ones cover a lot of territory. Also, a thread about a motor is more appropriate to Motor Technology than ebike-general-discussion. Personally, I'll keep posting my 54xx info on this thread, but maybe the Mods will decide to merge the two threads into a new one.

-JD

[Doctorbass]

UPDATE 8 may 2012


5403 weight watcher cure!

- Make my 5403 10mm narrower: check

- Adding cooling holes: check

- machining the axel and side cover to have both dual 6005 bearing: check

- machining the axel to hjave the freewheel side with a groove to have spacing for 2 great 1/4" O.D. copper pipe for watercooling: check !

- machining the axel to have the freewheel side with a groove to have spacing for 3x 10 gauge silicone wire and 5 hall wires: check !


That 5403 WILL accept a 7 speed freewheel! , WILL have liquidcooling and WILL have aircooling... and will have lost 2 pounds


Doc

[neptronix]

Very nice..

Pictures please!!

[Doctorbass]

Very nice..

Pictures please!!

All right!

[neptronix]

WOW. ~20mm removed from the sides. That is insane!

[sn0wchyld]

UPDATE 8 may 2012


5403 weight watcher cure!

- Make my 5403 10mm narrower: check

- Adding cooling holes: check

- machining the axel and side cover to have both dual 6005 bearing: check

- machining the axel to hjave the freewheel side with a groove to have spacing for 2 great 1/4" O.D. copper pipe for watercooling: check !

- machining the axel to have the freewheel side with a groove to have spacing for 3x 10 gauge silicone wire and 5 hall wires: check !


That 5403 WILL accept a 7 speed freewheel! , WILL have liquidcooling and WILL have aircooling... and will have lost 2 pounds


Doc

why the dual cooling??? wouldn't liquid be more than enough? ie just get a bigger radiator, that's the equivilant to having side cover holes?
knocking off 20mm is nutts. Hopefully you havent made the tollarances too small!!