HT3525+Lyen124115+30S want more power... safely

[hjns]

block time setting is the time before the current limitation of the controller sets in. E.g., if you have programmed your infineon based controller to a maximum of 50A battery current and a block time of 1.0 second, then in the very first second the controller will not limit the current. The current limitation will only start after 1.0 second.

This setting seems to be introduced for lower power setups, to allow temporary higher currents to the motor to make starting from complete standstill a bit easier, and still remain within legal requirements.

Read more here.
To get an idea how to play with it, see here.

[zombiess]

I always run my block time at 0.1S on all my controllers. I hex edited the software to allow this + mod several other settings. Old school hex editing skills come in handy

[hjns]

I always run my block time at 0.1S on all my controllers. I hex edited the software to allow this + mod several other settings. Old school hex editing skills come in handy

Hi zombiess,

Yes, you did describe that several times. However, do you think this is also necessary for the more mainstream "intermediate power" setups, like between 1.5kW and 5.0kW? Seems to me that 0.1s block time may be overkill, and >2.0s may be too long. However, this is only my gut feeling talking. I don't have the popped MOSFETs to prove it... yet.
Also, what else did you modifiy? Regen? Cruise control? Must be nice to cruise at 10kW....

I just ordered a bunch of high temp wires, including 0.25mm2 (23AWG) for hall/temp wires (180oC CHF 0.70/m), and 6.0mm2 (10AWG) for phase (180oC CHF 3.55/m), and just for the looks I also ordered dual 6.0mm2 for battery (85oC CHF 10.95/m). For the EU colleagues who are curious where I sourced it: I went to Conrad.ch.

[hjns]

Even better block time thread here.

[zombiess]

I always run my block time at 0.1S on all my controllers. I hex edited the software to allow this + mod several other settings. Old school hex editing skills come in handy

Hi zombiess,

Yes, you did describe that several times. However, do you think this is also necessary for the more mainstream "intermediate power" setups, like between 1.5kW and 5.0kW? Seems to me that 0.1s block time may be overkill, and >2.0s may be too long. However, this is only my gut feeling talking. I don't have the popped MOSFETs to prove it... yet.
Also, what else did you modifiy? Regen? Cruise control? Must be nice to cruise at 10kW....

I can modify any of the settings I want and even figured out how to expand some of the tables to add more choices. Works great so far. I choose 0.1S block time to make sure I don't over shoot the FET control algorithm for too long so I don't have to worry so much about an over current condition which could hurt the FETs. At my power level block time just isn't needed. I've tired programming it for 0.0S but it doesn't seem to make any difference vs setting it for 0.1S. I've also programmed my lower powered bike to 0.1S block time and it too works fine, I figure why risk the FETs more than I have to. I barely notice any difference in the settings unless I really lower the power down. Ebikes + nerd skills are such a great match. This is by far my favorite hobby and soon to be business. I'm in this for the long haul and trying to learn everything I can.

BTW, 10-12KW is just absolutely nutty fun to ride around on when you learn to control the power, just make sure you carry a large battery pack and a good controller (and spare fuses). I'm hoping I can get my throttle interface refined some more tomorrow so more people can enjoy this kind of fun with cheap Xie Chang controllers, they work great for most hub motors but their problem has been crappy throttle control which I'm working hard to fix.

[hjns]

OK, it took a while, but now I have the following components in:

• 9C 2810 front motor (from my 2WD adventure) to start playing around.
• Lyen 124115 controller (purpose of this thread) also to start playing with.
• HT3525 rear motor on my commuter - only if the above mods work will I start modding this one. This morning I pushed it up some 15% hills, and it was so hot that I almost burned my fingers.
• Lyen 124115 controller (also on my commuter).
• CA v3 beta - It will be very interesting to see how the CA can limit the amps when the temperature comes higher than a certain temp oC.
• CAnalogger - to log the results of up to 3 thermistors. I ordered the CAnalog without GPS, but was freely upgraded to one with GPS. THANKS Adam and Justin from Grin - ebike.ca !!! It will take some time to visualize the logged data, but using Excel would already facilitate some nice graphs.
• 10 pieces of 10k thermistors ntc to connect to CA and CAnalogger and read temp within the two motors and the two controllers. Including a thermistor inside any new motor / controller will become standard for me.
• 3 digital 12V DS18B20-based thermo probe thermometers up to 125oC with a big screen for nice big visualizations next to the cA. These were really cheap and I bought them before the CA v3 beta came out. Might as well use them.
• 180oC rated wires
• 0W40 Mobil 1 oil

Let's see what I can do tonight. First priority will be to add the thermistor to the 9C, change the wires, seal the motor, and add a hole for the oil.

[Tommy L]

I am watching this thread!

[hjns]

OK, I opened the 9C motor, and I did not find enough room inside the axle to add two or even one conventional wire. In order to add a thermistor, I can choose either to add two wires, and have them connected directly to the CA (or CAnalogger), or have the ground of the thermistor "piggybag" with the ground of the hall wires. The last one would in effect have only one wire added through the axle, but should also ensure that the ground of the hall wires is similar to the ground of the CA (or CAnalogger). This opens up the possibility for ground loops, but I was willing to take that risk if it meant just adding one wire.

Well, as mentioned, it did not work. No way to add another wire. I removed the phase wires and the hall wires from the axle. Then I observed that the heatshrink around both was really fixated to the inner side of the hole in the axle. Rather than trying to remove it, I went another direction.

From my small RC heli life, I still had some enamel magnet wire 28AWG left. I took 7 wires of approximately 20cm, and used a guide wire to pull them through the axle hole. Then I pushed the phase wires back in and through the axle. I now had 7 small enamel wires and the three phase wires through the axle hole, and it was a tight fit, but it worked.

I then transposed the original hall wires one by one to the ends of the enamel wires, and soldered the enamel wires to the hall pcb. I also connected two enamel wires to the 10k ntc thermistor, which is bright green in the right bottom of the picture.

With tiewraps, I fixated all wires against the main body of the stator, and then applied high temp sealing silicon to the entrance of the wires into the axle hole and onto the thermistor to keep it in place. I decided to use the silicon instead of DP420 or JBWeld for fixating the thermistor because it is easier to troubleshoot if necessary. Hopefully I wont't need to open it up again.




link to enamel magnet wire

[hjns]

From another active thread here on ES, I learned what the most important issues are in oil-cooling a motor. First thing was to determine which side the vent-/filling hole should be. This 9C2810 motor is a front hub, and I decided to use the non-disc-brake side, because I obviously do not have to worry about the derailleur. So, looking from the inside of the right cover, the wheel would usually turn anti-clockwise. Therefore, I planned to use an 8Gauge needle for a medical syringe, with the point pointing clockwise.

Similarly, from the outside of the right cover, the wheel will rotate clockwise. Also the nice sticker Methods created is visible for when I try to have it approved by the Swiss cops.

I inserted the needle and fixated it with DP420. After curing tomorrow I will test it with some oil. If good, then test the motor. If it moves, I will seal the motor and the real testing can start....









finished editing.

[auraslip]

I need to compliment you on your ability to dive right in and figure this stuff out! It took me along time to get to the level you're at!

Anyways, I just got my H series motor going after replacing a bank of fets on my 18 fet that blew from a phase short.

I installed a temp sensor in both the motor and the controller.

I'm actually really disappointed by the h series ability to handle heat while stock. My ventilated 9c handled power power better!

Another thing that concerns me is how hot the FETS get. Just a few stops and starts for the fets on the 18 fet up to 60c. This is like a mile of riding at 4-6kw. Not good. I'm thinking the end game here is keeping the controller in a sealed mineral oil bath. From the flying radiators videos and post's it seems very, very simple.

[hjns]

Thanks! I am always happy to dive in, especially if I do not really know what I am talking about. Keeping an open mind, learning as much as you can, and accepting it when you made a mistake keeps it manageable.

Yes, I also plan to immerse the controller in an ATF bath. Need to implant a thermistor there as well and record the differences with the CAnalogger. All in due time....

[ZOMGVTEK]

Nice mods. The oil bath will surely help cool the motor and controller, however it won't reasonably increase the limits. The motor and controller won't be able to really put out more power, it just will make them capable of running near the limits longer.

I'm not sure how much oil cooling a stock Infineon controller will do. If you want to beat on the controller, just getting a larger controller would be a better bet since it would be much farther from its limits. However, it will definitely help stabilize the internal temps, and likely get the heat out of the FET's and legs more rapidly.

Personally, I'm more interested in peak power rather than continuous, but I definitely look forward to your results.

[hjns]

Thanks. And for me it is more a question of definition of the "limits". But you are right, I am looking for more continuous power, to deal with some longer hills. So for me the limit is at 60A, because the limits now are determined by the overheating of the motor at 126V 80A, with the motor getting too hot to touch within minutes. After that I need to slow down, let the motor cool, whatever. I should definitely not going above 60A. Which is to be expected, and consistent with all other Clyte H series / IRFB4115 12FET controllers reported here.

If, as you say, I can drive my motor and controller for a longer period of time at that power level, I will be more than happy! For me, the limit is now 60A, and I am still working to get that to 80A. And I believe you immediately, if you say an 18 FET controller can handle that without getting warm.

Now the controller bath idea will be a lot of fun to play around. I will keep you all posted.

[ZOMGVTEK]

The biggest reason why that motor gets extremely hot at 126V/80A, is the efficiency starts to drop off dramatically. People say 60A is a better limit, since beyond that, much of your input is going towards heating the motor. The motor can only dissipate a few hundred watts stock, start tossing in multiples of its design power, and you can get a thousand or more watts of pure heat. This means the motor gets EXTREMELY hot, EXTREMELY quickly, and is exceedingly inefficient at doing so. You can put 100kW into the motor, and something like 90kW is going to be heat.

I would say that better cooling of hub motors is a great idea for long term reliability. However, it won't help you much once you go into the knee on the motors efficiency curve.

The same applies for the controller. A 12 FET 4110 will take about 150 phase amps 'safely'. Going beyond this, for any real prolonged period of time, is simply not possible due to the die bond wires being the inherent limitation. You can supercool the case of the FET's, and it will help them survive at higher power levels, but keeping them closer to ambient isn't going to do much once you push the internals of the FET beyond design limits.

That said, going ahead and doing the stuff is way better than just sitting around and talking about it, so definitely proceed and let's see how it does.

[hjns]

small update from my original build thread:

OK, so I destroyed my HT3525 when moving up a 15% hill at 50km/h (126V 55A). I knew it would break eventually, but it broke after 10 minutes going uphill, instead of after 2 minutes as indicated by the simulator (ebikes.ca). Now, I actually did NOT want to break the motor, but I could not help myself enjoying going uphill at that speed. It is just too much fun.

I will open the motor and try to diagnose what is wrong. Either halls are dead (most likely, because the motor reacted initially by behaving like when one of the hall wires is not connected well), or there is another short. We will see.

I tried to attach my 9C 2810 in front to get at least some motorized bike ready to go to work. I got it to work electronically, but when I inserted the motor into my other Fox front fork and tightened one of the bolts, I broke the dropouts. Again!! So, now I have proven that the Fox front forks (TALAS 32 and F100) have dropouts made of butter. Even with torque arms, they are NOT good for front motors.

I will try and learn how to weld. Then I will attach Docs super torque arms onto the fox front forks and we will see if that is better.

In the meantime I went to work pedalling. It is a commute of 16km, and it took me an hour. Not that bad, considering all the hills in between. Maybe I should do that more often... muscle-power rules now!!

I have not had the time yet to open up my HT. In the meantime, I drive around on my front 9C 2810 at 126V 45A max (controller programmed). I do baby this hubbie, because I definitely do NOT want to destroy my last remaining motor. So average power going into it is around 1.3kW (10A). This still gives me a cruise speed of 50kmh (32mph). Topspeed at WOT is 60kmh (37mph). With the hills on my commute, I temporarily allow myself 20A (2.5kW), but according to the sim anything above 2.5kW will be converted right into heat. CA programmed to 25A max.

Last night I reprogrammed the Lyen controller and have now strong regen as soon as I brake left (rear brake). With my right brake (no e-brake) I activate the front brake. Front regen is awful, especially in the rain. I am constantly in fear of sliding under, and will remove the regen once I get home again.

With front wheel drive, if I give too much throttle, the wheel will slip. So I need to be gentle and can not accelerate as hard as I would like. You definitely need rear wheel drive for that. But for the moment it is not that bad.

Anyway, I need to find out what is wrong with my HT. And as soon as my money transfer has reached PayPal, I will order a Hubzilla from Vlad. 2WD with a Hubzilla (at 60%) on the rear and 9C in front should really take care of any heat issues when climbing mountains....

I guess you guys will now advice me to get a 24 or 36 FET controller, right?
What about a Kelly?

[Lebowski]

I guess you guys will now advice me to get a 24 or 36 FET controller, right?
What about a Kelly?

not me