ES Motor Project?

[Miles]

Ref: The influence of cutting technique on the magnetic properties of electrical steels
M. Emuraa, F.J.G. Landgrafb,*, W. Rossc, J.R. Barretac

[Thud]

Most likely yes,
Depending on the state of materials prior to stamping....& I am sure the thickness of materials come into play also on how much stress is induced in the stamping opperation. Industry adds anealing as a standard & would be the right thing to do.

what i don't recall is how the anealing affects any pre-coated materials.
I do know laser cut or photo-etch side steps the anealing requirment.

[TylerDurden]

I found nothing as cost effective as photo-chemical etching for prototyping, (unless you already own a cnc laser)

Would this do it?
Epilog 50W

http://www.maker-works.com/content/walk ... ery-undone

[Arlo1]

The operation is a simple one...the tooling is the issue.

A proper single hit stamp die is going to be a bit pricey, prolly more than the custom broach for for the freewheel project. After my research, I found nothing as cost effective as photo-chemical etching for prototyping, (unless you already own a cnc laser)

I can make screens for printing, amazinly cheap..with a standard printer & some transparancys for design changes. Items this thin cut quickly....the dangerous chemicals are a nuciance....but affordable. Then there is the burdon of time for the actual handling/printing (2-sides for max speed in the etch tank) & stator assembly.....I can print over 100 pc an hour (maybe double that with an optomised screen on a final design) but I havn't run a production senario in the etch tank for real world #s.

I do have a board for building a Pulsed EDM machine. This will put large die making in my grasp...i just need to turn off the computer & get into the work shop

Methods wife is a laser physicist. Maybe she can help?

[TylerDurden]

Methods wife is a laser physicist. Maybe she can help?

She makes stuff that blows holes in armor.

[Thud]

TD,
their documantation says no....
http://www.epiloglaser.com/laser-cuttin ... utting.htm
(i actualy have one of the aztec calanders you see on the website I picked up at a wood machinery show where they were demonstraighting these units)

but at the thickness's we are looking at I don't know. (my favorite pastime is surpassing equipment specifications) I wish that shop wasn't 2-1/2 hoaus away form me.

[Thud]

Arlo

Methods wife is a laser physicist. Maybe she can help?

would be cool it some stuff was avaialable......but i aint holding my breath

[TylerDurden]

I can ask the makerworks folks their opinion about thin metals. They are quite amenable to people pushing the envelope for DIY projects.

If the material can be cut, I'm willing to receive/send the materials.

What I am also not sure of is how much machine-time would be required for a motor's worth of lams. A prospective sheet layout of a few lams might help estimate.

Makerworks usually allows 2hrs per user at a machine at a time. They do make special arrangements, so people have a fair shot at access for bigger projects.

[Miles]

Here's the Alibre model file, Tyler. There's also Thud's DXF, above.

[TylerDurden]

Thanks, Miles.

What size does the lamination stock come in?

I presume we are considering a nested design (2 sizes of stator, concentric) to maximize material use. (?)

[Miles]

What size does the lamination stock come in?

A roll of whatever width we want, I think.

[Farfle]

We do have a 75 watt epilog laser in our school, it may cut lam stock if its thin enough.

[Miles]

If someone wants to just do their own, fine. The trouble is that, even for a few motors, we are talking about thousands of laminations.....

I'll get some quotes for professionally cut/assembled stacks, once the core is finalised.

[Farfle]

If someone wants to just do their own, fine. The trouble is that, even for a few motors, we are talking about thousands of laminations.....

I'll get some quotes for professionally cut/assembled stacks, once the core is finalised.

Wow, didnt think there would be that many

[Miles]

Wow, didnt think there would be that many

Approx. 5 laminations per mm of stack..... So, 500 laminations for a 100mm stack...

[TylerDurden]

Approx. 5 laminations per mm of stack..... So, 500 laminations for a 100mm stack...

Still, if 500 could be done in a few hours, it beats the cost of a die; until the design is finalized.

[liveforphysics]

I've been looking for a reason to mount a cutting laser head on my CNC.

I have the laser power supply to run up to a 5kw solid state laser, and it has blanking control that is sub 1ms.

Its just a 13" x 42" table though, so only maybe 30-40 lams per sheet loaded. It is a fast machine though, I would imagine with a powerful enough laser it could do a sheet in 5-10mins.

[liveforphysics]

It doesn't say it on the list of materials it can cut, but 150w should zip through 0.2mm like its air.

Seems like its cheaper to just buy a laser cutter all together than assemble your own for the power levels we would need.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CO2-LASER-ENGRA ... 371wt_1058

[liveforphysics]

I'm not saying an $8500 machine is cheap, and shipped and setup likely $10k.

However, I bet a stamping die is 10k, and then it can only do a single type of lam, and requires somebody else to run it.

If we all chipped in 10K and landed a machine like that at Thud's house, we could have huge flexability in our prototype development.

10k into a run of say 100 motors is only $100 overhead per motor, and then you still have the machine.

[TylerDurden]

How about the other bits? Cans, shafts, etc?

Sourcing hundreds of them could get interesting.

[thepronghorn]

http://www.mfg.com/
Is one place to find a company that will make the shafts/bells/etc.

Etotheipiplusone.net has used mfg.com for this exact purpose and found them reasonable

mfg.com could also be the place to source companies who can do the stamping or lasering or whatever for stators

[Thud]

Shaflts are simple, flux cans are based on standard DOM tubing sizes & easy to cut to any length. A bearing carrier & motor mounting are also easy & afordable parts....only real decision is whether a skirt bearing is enough benifit to justify the additional parts required on a 50mm motor. (prolly would be required for a 100mm length stack)

I have contacts in several small cnc houses in the area...manufacturing is not the problem. Its getting a reasonable amount of the correct materials in hand....& then finding the capital to finace a run of motors.

Its the reason I am such a DIY guy....I allways have more time than funding for projects. It is far better for me to photo etch a batch of stators for myself & maybe a couple motors...but that is nothing like running a batch of 10 motors.

For compairison & to get back to motor design parameters here is some additional info
The C80/100 is only a 52mm stack in length & the magnets are only 50mm in the can.
the 80/85 has a 34mm stack & magnets

the closest motor for direct compairison will be the CA120.
A CA120 has only a 30mm stack & magnets.
The 18t 16p Miles proposed (I like it too) is bigger, with fewer poles. it ought to be the Nutz for a starting platform. With a 50mm stator stack its going to be monster. I have nothing to judge it against If we stack it to 100mm in length.....but I would sure like to try it

& if its anywhere near controllable, I have an "oil mist" active cooling system all designed ready to impliment for some serious BTU disapation if we decide to load it into "semi efficancy"
here are some teasers of the gear pump parts:

[TylerDurden]

Nice pump!

I also would much rather see the bits get made by various members, than jobbed out on complicated group buys.

The laminations seem to be a taller hurdle for individuals, but if member could break even or make a buck doing lams with a laser...

[Thud]

Miles said:

I'll get some quotes for professionally cut/assembled stacks, once the core is finalised.

Are we looking for a FEMM model to zero in on some of the stator variables? (tooth width, head area, maybe model some copper senario's?)

I downloaded FEMM software but may as well have downloaded a chineese book on philosophy for all i understand of setting parameters in my 10 minute looky look

[mdd0127]

I know it doesn't seem like it but 100 motors is probably about 90 more motors than there are people that would be interested in them. I know it can seem like there's a big demand for this stuff but from my experience with higher end unique bits like this, there just isn't enough demand to resort to group buy and outside parts sourcing action. Most of the people that would want a motor like this and have the skills to implement its use would easily be able to machine a bearing tube, mount, and can. Speaking of the can, due to the issues that the mini colossus motors had, I'd highly recommend running it through a lathe just to true it up and make sure it's round. Still not a difficult task but it would be good, just for good measure.

On this size motor, regardless of stack length, I really think that it will be a good idea to have bearing support on both sides. I don't like the large diameter skirt bearing idea though and think a modular design with a smaller diameter bearing would be better. Also, it would be a good idea to implement cooling fins in the can endcap design. I could simplify and scale up the mini colossus model and repost it if anyone is interested.

If it looks like this is going to become a reality, I'd happily sell my 3220 and use the funds to buy a stack of stator lams, some wire, magnets, and some stock. I wish I had a bunch of money and could really help finance the project though!