Controller in a water bottle cage? Could it happen?

[HAROX]

Scroll through if you wish. I'm summarizing as it unfolds.
So, "they"ve put the batteries in a water bottle, so to speak. I'm a newb. I have a question.
Does anybody put their controllers in a can?
I'm intrigued, making the controller a can, mounted on the seat tube for instance, or elsewhere in the triangle, having fins. Being a radial design, may be difficult to envision, or service. A cylindrical controller, shedding heat, with rounded edges could be useful.
As for the can "sizing", a water bottle cage is ~ 2 1/4" diameter, and ~ 4" long. The foot of the "can" could be ~4" long, and would stick in the water bottle cage, for instance.
Above the "foot of the can", could be the top of the controller, and, maybe it could vaguely resemble a cylinder head of an engine, with fins.
Bigger controllers… could be a huge technical challenge, however a board of the same size as an "el bueno cheap-o" may very well fit, FETS and all, today.
And if nobody does it, what would be gained by having a cylindrical controller "box"? I think, lots could be gained, as a round thing seems to work better than a square thing on a bike. Please let me know if this is a POS idea, and maybe why would be comforting to know as well. As always thanks for the positive energy. My apologies if this is a PITA type question.

[tedcs]

I have a wealth of ignorance.
Although I've never seen a "controller in a can," I ain't seen much.
Certainly, it could be done.
As you mentioned, some of the controllers available are small enough to stuff in a can.
Yes, heat dissipation would require some thought.
I can't think of any technical reason that a cylindrical "box" would be superior, but hiding it in plain sight would be cool.
For the sake of appearance, or just for the heck of it, is a good enough reason here.

Uh Oh, warning, by braincell derailed.
Putting a controller in the seat tube is a thought that amuses me.

[heathyoung]

Well, controllers in this form factor (circular) are used in the headline (cyclone) <500W motors, so yep, technically possible.

But why? The attraction lies in being able to remove it from the bike - there is no great need for this for a controller.

[HAROX]

.

[The fingers]

With a mid mount motor between two tube batteriest or tube battery with tube controller you could have a cool V-Twin look drive train on a chopper frame.

[HAROX]

LOOKS
hiding it in plain sight would be cool
you could have a cool V-Twin look
COMPACTNESS
Certainly, it could be done
some are small enough already
SAFETY
no sharp edges
water tight
able to dissipate heat…

[Chalo]

So, "they"ve put the batteries in a water bottle, so to speak. I'm a newb. I have a question.
Does anybody put their controllers in a can?

I did something much easier with my Crystalyte 35A controller. I made an aluminum plate that screws to the downtube water bottle bosses. Then I screwed the controller to it. Why I'd want to mess around with a less convenient form factor, or make a controller that can get knocked off the bike, is not clear to me.

Chalo

[HAROX]

Why I'd want to mess around with a less convenient form factor, or make a controller that can get knocked off the bike, is not clear to me.

Chalo

Messing around, making one, is unclear. I got it Chalo. Thanks. The most valuable thing is feedback.
The form of the bicycle informs its predicted use. The bike became the motorbike.
What people want is something streamlined and powerful, dependable, safe.
"Boxiness" is the accepted mainstream, however it's not streamlined, and boxes are not as efficient as rounded, adapted enclosures.
Boxes are old world containers. It may sound like i have an aversion to boxes, which I do.
Hub motors, in fact, all motors, are streamlined. Many wheels have motors with controllers' parts within them. Some wheels contain the power source. I realize the 2 dimensional controller "paperwork" is adapted to be a radial application, in conformity with the wheel.
When was the last time you saw a Ferrari with a five gallon gas can hanging off the back? There's a reason why the Ferrari is streamlined.

[bigmoose]

Harox, I like where you are going with this. It would be neat if you were an industrial designer, marrying art and technology.

I agree with you. The eBike is evolving. It needs to move away from the box-i-ness to more flowing form. Right now we are still bolting on "line replaceable" units (controllers, batteries, meters, sensors) trying literally to define what a good, powerful, dependable eBike is.

Once that sort of settles into a baseline, then guys like you will package it. I think it will evolve into something like the Fighter/Bomber, but with smoother lines. I could easily heat sink a controller inside the base or side of a "boxed section". Putting the FETs in the motor is just adding to the heat problem. That is the reason I think they need to come out, and stay out of the motor. The copper is making enough of a heat problem in there. Batteries are evolving towards pouch cells. So the packaging problem for you is we have two significantly sized components that want to be rectilinear.

Now to clothe those components in beautiful, flowing structure. ... that is cheap, structurally efficient, and "flowing..." That is your challenge, Mr. Harox!

[Gregory]

Yes, I think we need new sexy frames.

And one smaller integrated / compatible electronics brain that includes controller, watt display, BMS, DC-DC.

[HAROX]

Now to clothe those components in beautiful, flowing structure. ... that is cheap, structurally efficient, and "flowing..." That is your challenge, Mr. Harox!

Thank you Big Moose.
It's up to everyone who wants the form AND function to ask for it to happen.

[Chalo]

The motorbike has evolved to become streamlined, from fuel tank to exhaust. All that stuff is designed within the limits of the form. An electric bike is evolving from boxy batteries to streamlined cases, and it's work to do so, just like motorbikes, and it must happen.

No, it doesn't have to. That stuff is all phony plastic covers. I remember my disappointment when I first started working on my first MC and discovered that everything remotely sleek on it was an unnecessary beauty cover made from plastic and screwed on in some inconvenient way. Underneath the phony covers? Mostly boxes and cylinders of one sort or another. After a time, I just started leaving the covers off, or I made flat ones that were easier to deal with.

On even the sleekest car or motorcycle, the fuse enclosure, voltage regulator, ignition unit-- every one of these things is a prism. It's about fitness for purpose; honest design incorporates it, redeems it. That's why a 1920s Brough Superior will always be a far more beautiful bike than some 21st century streamlined plastic blob from Japan. It's honestly what it is. There has been no attempt to cosmetically sheath or obscure any part of it.


versus


(EDIT: another point worth noting is that while I can't fit on a Hayabusa (I'm 6'8" tall), I can fit just fine on a Brough or almost any other minimalist unfaired motorcycle. When you leave things off of a designed machine, you don't have to make predictions or assumptions about the conditions under which those parts will have to function.)

A bicycle is by its nature the minimum machine possible to do its job. That is why fairings, cowlings and covers on a bicycle are inevitably such an aesthetic failure: they add to what is necessary and thus violate the most essential quality of the machine.

A controller is composed of one or more PCBs, which are flat. While they could in principle be made some other shape, there are reasons for them to be flat. The neatest, most compact way to house one or more flat PCBs is in a rectangular prism. Package it as a disc, and the housing is more difficult (expensive) to make and attach. Package it as a cylinder, and volumetric compactness becomes much harder to achieve. Electronics tend to package in slab-like forms for the same basic reason books do-- they are made of "pages" that tend towards a certain shape. You could make a cylindrical book that would fit into a water bottle holder, but why?



Chalo

[HAROX]

...hold on folks (approaching the speed of light) zzzzap! +1. keep going!

[tedcs]

The motorbike has evolved to become streamlined, from fuel tank to exhaust. All that stuff is designed within the limits of the form.
An electric bike is evolving from boxy batteries to streamlined cases, and it's work to do so, just like motorbikes, and it must happen.

No, it doesn't have to. That stuff is all phony plastic covers. ...
After a time, I just started leaving the covers off, or I made flat ones that were easier to deal with. ...
A bicycle is by its nature the minimum machine possible to do its job. ...

I agree with everything.
I think y'all just invented Yin and Yang, although I don't remember which is which.

I'm not unaffected by appearance but, I'm not effected by it either.

[HAROX]

.

[cbr shadow]

I can see this from both sides.. The hayabusa example above I'm not so sure about.. The Suzuki Hayabusa was designed for specific purposes.. comfort wasn't one of them. It's a speed machine and in that category it dominated for a very long time. If you want comfort there are motorcycles designed for that as well. One could easily make the opposite point to say that bikes HAVE developed well for comfort by comparing the opposite extremes like an old cafe racer bike to a Yamaha FJR.
To add to Harox's point - Yes, most cars including the Ferarri as mentioned above do have plastic panels to cover jagged edges of rectangular parts. These aren't there because someone decided to be cheap though, there was an incredible amount of thought that goes into materials, aerodynamics, etc.. What Harox is suggesting above is that even though the controller may be cheaper to put in a rectangular box, if made small enough why not have something that looks/feels better and functions at least the same.
I think the reason we dont see much of this already is that most of what's on this forum is home-built for now. I read an article about ebikes recently that said that ebikes int he US are at the "mad scientist" phase right now because not a lot of big companies have picked up on it yet. I'm sure once they do there will be a lot more design that is asthetically pleasing.

[Chalo]

The hayabusa example above I'm not so sure about.. The Suzuki Hayabusa was designed for specific purposes.. comfort wasn't one of them. It's a speed machine and in that category it dominated for a very long time. If you want comfort there are motorcycles designed for that as well.

The Brough Superior was the Vincent Black Lightning/Kawasaki Z900/Honda Hurricane/Suzuki Hayabusa of its day. A speed machine first and foremost.

For what it's worth, the fairing also makes it impossible for me to fit on a Gold Wing, an ST1100, or just about any other bike that has fairing lowers. Unintended consequences of an unnecessary part.

Chalo

[cbr shadow]

Try the GS series by BMW.. My brother is 6'7" and rides one. Also you mention the ST1100 - have you tried the ST1300 (it replaced the 1100)? Not sure on how the faring changed between the two, but my brother also rides the ST1300 and loves it. You guys might be shaped differently though. I think the main point is that bikes have progressed so much that there are now specialized classes. Today's race bikes would destroy the Brough Superior in every way (as they should).. Also I bet many would argue that the Brough is not more comfortable than most of the much faster bikes today.. Most of the race bikes are designed for people like Valentino Rossi who are small - not for 6'8" guys like yourself.

[tedcs]

Ted, Does that seem to imply, it don't matter if it's ugly, har, cuz I'm gonna have a good time regardless? ...

Yes, it does not matter if it's ugly, or fugly, 'cuz I'm gonna have a good time regardless.
It's not that the aesthetic is of no consequence, but that is not my forte.
It will be wonderful to have a controller of such exquisite beauty that it causes all who gaze on it to swoon as dopamine swirls about their braincells — and having such prodigious capability that Isaac Asimov and Richard Feynman could chortle with joy.
Hand me the duct tape, please.

[Kingfish]

The title of this post is about placing the controller in a circular geometry. Are we doing this for stealth, convenience, or something else? I’m not exactly sure from the wandering.

If I’m into off-road, I’d want a bike and body elements that are easily removable for servicing components beneath, as well as acting as rock guards to protect my investment. But the watch-phrase for this implementation is easy-access. Looks matter less as long as my performance is top-notch.

If I’m at the other end of the spectrum, and into cross-country or possibly racing, the argument for design will center on reducing drag in all forms. Everything is aero-dependent for optimum slipstreaming, from the lights and mirrors, to the fairings, to the wheels, hub covers and fenders. Components will be packaged differently, and I can foresee forced-cooling would allow the obvious to be tucked away for body leaner lines.

Returning to the circular geometry, the issues that could be raised are…

• Fabrication: Certainly possible to create a board that could fit, maybe place components on both sides, though it might take a custom extrusion to accommodate the FETs.
• Heat: If we placed on there, triangle battery bags might become a problem if they cover up the controller.
• DH Frames: Not sure how this would work in a scenario because of the wide range of possible geometries.

Overall, I think the idea has merit, perhaps better in a more compact squarish format than cylindrical. The present controller configurations are about ½ inch too wide for my tastes, but they are what they are. If I were manufacturing ebikes though, I’d make a system befitting the utility, and easily serviced.

Give the people what they want, KF

[HAROX]

"Certainly, it could be" worth
re-defining "what a good, powerful, dependable eBike is".
"Messing around, making one, is unclear."
"Bikes HAVE developed well."

Defining LOOKS could be:
(with the) "range of possible geometries",
varied, as "new sexy frames" are varied.
It is "structurally efficient, "flowing..."
"like the Fighter/Bomber with smoother lines."
Hmmm…could be! Could be…
"hiding in plain sight… cool…"
"a cool V-Twin look"
THO' …"it does not matter if it's ugly, or fugly,'
"(Hand me the duct tape, please.)"

As for SAFETY:
1)"no sharp edges"
2)"water tight"
3)"able to dissipate heat…"


The DESIGN/PURPOSE is explicit.
"The watch-phrase for this implementation is easy-access."
It must be "designed for specific purpose,"
and "fit for purpose";
and purpose driven too. May as well design
"a speed machine first and foremost",
(and satisfy everybody
who ever wanted feed their demons)
And it would appear so "aesthetically pleasing",
You could say Its "honest design
incorporates it, redeems it".


SO THE "JOB", is solving the following:
1)"Giving the people what THEY want" (to see or feel)
2)by "mounting to (the downtube water bottle) bosses"
(you) "center",
3) "reducing drag in all forms",
thereby, making "a system befitting the utility", and
+(finding it could be) "easily serviced".

How? BY:
"creating a board" (space) that could "fit"
(using) "smaller integrated / compatible electronics brain"(s)
knowing….(since) "some are small enough already".

Heeding this:
1)There are "reasons for (PCB's) to lay flat".
2)They are "made of 'pages' ",
Understanding also, "(two significantly sized) components want to be rectilinear".
The demand for (battery placement), and controller (venting) WILL compete with rider space, so count on that. PERIOD. Wouldn't it be obvious now, a small man rides a small bike about the same way as a large person rides a large bike, and the requirements for both are relative to their own proportions.
"Enough power" is also relatively the same for both large and small, excepting speed demons, who never get enough. Some things stay the same, no matter how much everything seems to change.

[HAROX]

The premise of this thread first, has been to discover other forms, other than a six-sided box, to ride between your legs, forms that will work mo betta! That's a simple statement.

[HAROX]

.

[HAROX]

The motorbike has evolved to become streamlined, from fuel tank to exhaust. All that stuff is designed within the limits of the form. An electric bike is evolving from boxy batteries to streamlined cases, and it's work to do so, just like motorbikes, and it must happen.

No, it doesn't have to. That stuff is all phony plastic covers. I remember my disappointment when I first started working on my first MC and discovered that everything remotely sleek on it was an unnecessary beauty cover made from plastic and screwed on in some inconvenient way. Underneath the phony covers? Mostly boxes and cylinders of one sort or another. After a time, I just started leaving the covers off, or I made flat ones that were easier to deal with.

On even the sleekest car or motorcycle, the fuse enclosure, voltage regulator, ignition unit-- every one of these things is a prism. It's about fitness for purpose; honest design incorporates it, redeems it. That's why a 1920s Brough Superior will always be a far more beautiful bike than some 21st century streamlined plastic blob from Japan. It's honestly what it is. There has been no attempt to cosmetically sheath or obscure any part of it.


versus

You see Chalo, I agree. The Brough Superior has those smooth lines I was talking about. Atop all the machinery is a sleek tank, and saddle and pipes, and the thing is streamed; that's what it is, streamed, stretched.
So, there's a long tradition of stretching the original concept, from wood, to steel or bamboo, or cardboard.
When creating some "thing", one throws out most every other "thing", only keeping the very essence, the form. Then following the form, all the elements will try to be assimilated.
The controller boards we maintain these days are the descendants of the transistorized and tubed amplifiers of last century... monsters we used to park in the living room, next to the blocky furniture.

[HAROX]

.