Motor comparison spreadsheet

Electric Motors and Controllers
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Miles
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Re: Motor comparison spreadsheet

Post by Miles » Nov 09, 2017 4:43 pm

justin_le wrote:Just an idea here but since we've now added the ability to input a custom motor on the ebike simulator page ( see https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p1324922 ), you could in principle add a column to this spreadsheet that uses the string and math functions to produce a direct URL for viewing this as a custom motor in the online simulator. The only thing missing in your columns right now is the one for the inductance, but everything else is there.
Wow! What a great idea!

I've been pretty busy with work related stuff recently and hadn't even noticed that you'd opened up your simulator for custom input. Thank you Justin!

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Re: Motor comparison spreadsheet

Post by justin_le » Nov 09, 2017 6:27 pm

Miles wrote: I've been pretty busy with work related stuff recently and hadn't even noticed that you'd opened up your simulator for custom input. Thank you Justin!
Hey Miles, well I am most keen to see your own motor design simulated with this tool so get to work and fill in the missing pole and inductance details!

Also, I should be able to contribute a number of additional motor model details to your spreadsheet list, as I'm in the process right now of trying to go through and consolidating the info from all my many scattered motor dyno tests and dissections over the years.
Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with prototype 26" Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 11Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: Motor comparison spreadsheet, add simulator link?

Post by toolman2 » Nov 09, 2017 10:54 pm

justin_le wrote:Just an idea here but since we've now added the ability to input a custom motor on the ebike simulator page ( see https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p1324922 ), you could in principle add a column to this spreadsheet that uses the string and math functions to produce a direct URL for viewing this as a custom motor in the online simulator. The only thing missing in your columns right now is the one for the inductance, but everything else is there.

For instance, if we look at the Joby JM1S motor, we have

11 pole pairs
94 rpm/V
.015 ohms
0.107 Nm hyst trq
0.00007 Nm/rpm eddy trq, which is .0000073 Nm/Rad/sec

If I assume that the winding inductance is .05 mH, then this can be expressed in the custom URL string as motor=cust_94_0.015_0.05_11_0.107_0.000007_0
The order is just KV_Ohms_mH_PolePairs_Hyst_Eddie_TransmissionLoss Append it to the URL like this:
http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.ht ... 0.000007_0

Of course the default shows it directly coupled to a 26" wheel diameter, while a motor like this would be geared down, so it might make sense to have the string default an initial effective wheel size based on the KV. Here's a more realistic set of parameters for this motor on an ebike:
http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.ht ... A&cont=C35
Yep, sounds like a good plan Justin.
I should have the measured inductance of the JM1S motor somewhere, and have plenty of data from the longer JM1 shown. It would be very interesting to see if we can replicate (on your simulator) the goings on at the track with this motor when approaching both its torque and rpm limits at around 21kw in and geared tall, there's some on board video from a road circuit practice day with these settings that shows a glimpse of the CA to get a good feel for how this can play out in the real world.

There are also some other potential contenders (weighing 2 or 3 times more) that ive dabbled with lately, they are yet to match the joby for output but the d7500 motor (also pictured) is a cheap option and is pretty easy to control and mount. I have accurate data from most of these types of motors and have dynoed/torque tested them to find saturation etc, often using a similar method to your locked rotor hub motor tests.

So yes, it would be really interesting to see how some of these motors come up on the sim, and be able to mess with gearing etc and see it all graphed out. and
happy to provide the data.
motors.jpg
suitable motors?

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Re: Motor comparison spreadsheet, add simulator link?

Post by crossbreak » Nov 10, 2017 7:58 am

nice feature, thx justin!

Hubmonster by John in CR http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.ht ... A&cont=C35
10 pole pairs
18.3 rpm/V
.016 ohms
0.756 Nm hyst trq
0.00052 Nm/rpm eddy trq, which is .000054 Nm/Rad/sec
inductance is assumed to be .05 mH

CroMotor V3 /QS205 V3 measured by me http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.ht ... A&cont=C35
16 pole pairs
11.1 rpm/V
.0386 ohms
1.606 Nm hyst trq
0.00092 Nm/rpm eddy trq, which is .000096 Nm/Rad/sec
inductance is assumed to be .05 mH
justin_le wrote:you could in principle add a column to this spreadsheet that uses the string and math functions to produce a direct URL for viewing this as a custom motor in the online simulator
tried that in row L for the Hubmonster. works so far 8)
Attachments
Motor Data V4.34.xls
(216 KiB) Downloaded 28 times

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Re: Motor comparison spreadsheet

Post by Ddt » Nov 13, 2017 10:43 am

Hello
Toolman2 do you have data about the 7500w btw motor?
How we can have a joby motor?

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Re: Motor comparison spreadsheet

Post by toolman2 » Nov 15, 2017 9:00 am

Ddt wrote:Hello
Toolman2 do you have data about the 7500w btw motor?
How we can have a joby motor?
Yes no probs, the d7500w:
Its 4 pole pairs
66.8KV (with a brushless rc controller)
0.0205 ohms
And used only 98W to do 2627rpm from 39.3v

inductance is pretty high at 87uH, and pole count is low so any controller could run it.
Theres an excess of iron in the flux path, so it's unlikely to saturate even at 400A but i from what i have measured i would expect about 6.5kw of total (and mostly ir) losses for this 60 ish NM output.
-so maby half that current torque level and 5 or 6000 rpm is something it could do reasonably well.

btw the outrunner in that photo can produce 60NM at around a quarter of that power consumption..

And the joby's are no longer available to the public im afraid, Joe Ben told me they were selling the old motors below cost and they are now real busy producing a batch of new updated motors (that are apparently better all round than the JM1 :!: ) in a joint venture with NASA.

Let me know if you or other folks need further info.

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Re: Motor comparison spreadsheet

Post by speedmd » Nov 15, 2017 10:33 am

Hi Toolman2

Good to see your posts. Love your videos also. The d7500 looks very much like my gng 450w kit motor. What is the gap diameter?

Been reluctant to jump into the JM1 mainly due to the mount setup. New motors the same? I believe you added a outer (sprocket side) support bearing on yours. Is that a must do?

The outrunner in the photo looks nice also. Can you share some more details on it.

thanks

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Re: Motor comparison spreadsheet

Post by ltu » Nov 15, 2017 11:51 am

the outrunner in the picture look like the frc 20080,he can custom made hallback array magnet.
do you have more information about new update joby motor?
the new generation of high efficency electric motor,used mostly in formula e,are the ac syncronous reluctance motor...

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Re: Motor comparison spreadsheet

Post by toolman2 » Nov 16, 2017 9:33 am

Thanks speedmd, the d7500 is the same sort of design as those gng or bht type motors but its a fair bit bigger.
The airgap is 90mm and a 60mm long stator and those outer bolt holes you can see in the case are 160mm apart, also the case is pretty long because there is a separate and adjustable hall and magnet ring at the back end a little like i made for the Joby -the halls are under the pink epoxy mounted on a thin fiberglass sheet in that pic.

The separate magnets to trigger the halls is often needed as you approach saturation to avoid stray fields from the energized coils giving false signals. likewise adjustable halls are a good setup because ive never seen the halls accurately placed by a factory when checking them with a cro..

And yea you wouldn't really want to rely on the relatively distant rear case of the Joby to take chain loads from the nose, but its a pretty simple thing to have bearings inside the sprocket and mount that internal shaft to the frame.
The new design of the JM1 has the same case, so will bolt straight in to the race bike but its a different pole count and a new stator, the internet knows nothing of the new motor from what ive seen other than some media reports of the joint venture/VTOL project, so i prolly should keep it that way.

The big (154mm) outrunner is an interesting motor, it produces torque very efficiently and has 0.2mm lams. its not happened yet but i believe this motor (at nearly double the weight though :wink: ) is capable of making more power than the JM1.
Ill post up info on a rewound version of it shortly.

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Re: Motor comparison spreadsheet

Post by speedmd » Nov 18, 2017 2:15 pm

The big (154mm) outrunner is an interesting motor, it produces torque very efficiently and has 0.2mm lams. its not happened yet but i believe this motor (at nearly double the weight though :wink: ) is capable of making more power than the JM1.
Ill post up info on a rewound version of it shortly.
:)
Thanks, look forward to the data. Double the weight is still reasonably light if it has the extra torque at low power consumption I would think. Looks very promising for a single reduction-speed mid drive.
Last edited by speedmd on Nov 29, 2017 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Motor comparison spreadsheet

Post by speedmd » Nov 19, 2017 3:19 pm

ltu wrote:
Nov 15, 2017 11:51 am
the outrunner in the picture look like the frc 20080,he can custom made hallback array magnet.
Looks like possibly the 150 Image

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Re: Motor comparison spreadsheet

Post by madin88 » Nov 20, 2017 3:29 pm

toolman2 wrote:
Nov 15, 2017 9:00 am
btw the outrunner in that photo can produce 60NM at around a quarter of that power consumption..
a high pole design leads to less resistance making it very efficient in producing torque.
but it is a challange to find a good EV controller which can spin such motor to sufficient high RPM (ERPM limitation).
And the joby's are no longer available to the public im afraid, Joe Ben told me they were selling the old motors below cost and they are now real busy producing a batch of new updated motors (that are apparently better all round than the JM1 :!: ) in a joint venture with NASA.

Let me know if you or other folks need further info.
the Joby JM1 and JM1s can be choosen in eCalc
https://www.ecalc.ch/torquecalc.php
just type in torque, RPM + enough voltage range and check the result^^

I found the NeuMotors L8057 (same as Leomotion L8057) to be a good competitor in the 10kW range.
It has only 16poles and a large 14mm axle making it easy to add a drive train.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 30&t=91144

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Re: Motor comparison spreadsheet

Post by toolman2 » Nov 24, 2017 7:02 pm

Yep that's the same kind of motor speedmd, the one ive been working on is a 50mm stator version and has the skirt bearing -the one you have pictured is the 35mm i think. and you can get any of them on alibaba also.

Yes, thats well put madin. and out of all of these types of motors, its the high pole count, low resistance and inductance ones that are well ahead for efficient (to the wheel) output per kg, and for their size. -Its clearly the future direction for higher power density motors and the joby is a good example of this, but is not very available and needs a two stage reduction.

There has been plenty of fear of these types of motors in these parts since about 2010 cemented by the all the big players, Luke was going to use a joby on the early death bike but said no controller could do it so used big brushed perm or Agni, it seemed to be going against the grain so eventually i kinda gave up saying much and pressed on and it just stayed that way. Not sure with point now proven, new blood and the passing of years if these things are now better and can be rationally discussed?
-even back then a Kelly keb that was a little tweaked could get the joby to 8000rpm, now they can get it to 10 700rpm reliably ie 7 years and not one blown controller.
But they are not sine wave, and the newer sine kls kellys and others have better control and other advantages but so far can only get the joby to a bit over 5000rpm, we prefer the kls for tighter tracks where you only need 85kph maximum.

This still gives us 6000rpm achievable for the big 154mm outrunner (and we really only want single stage reduction by choice) and about 3000rpm with a sine, foc controller and hopefully many better controllers are soon available, so it seems like a motor worth checking out.

The NeuMotors L8057 specs look impressive, anyone want to get one to me for sorting out with halls and testing? -just of curiosity, ill then post the results up and send it back..

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Re: Motor comparison spreadsheet

Post by ltu » Nov 26, 2017 10:40 am

what do you think about the 120100 outrunner motor?(on the website he claim 90% efficency same as the 154)

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Re: Motor comparison spreadsheet

Post by ltu » Nov 28, 2017 12:49 pm

it can be used for a single reduction(1:8 or 1:7)without overheat ferquently for 150a 80v for a total weight 150kg?

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Re: Motor comparison spreadsheet

Post by speedmd » Nov 28, 2017 2:51 pm

I like the larger diameter smaller stack package also. Much Potential in a wide speed range using a single reduction stage with reasonable pack and controller sizes. Allows a normal- narrow pedaling Q width also. Wish someone would come up with pancake inrunner style made like the new Zero internal magnet rotor with a 30 -40mm stack. Even if pedaling this power class is somewhat a show, it still allows access to the most of the vast outdoors with little hassles unless you are determined to draw attention to your riding.

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Re: Motor comparison spreadsheet

Post by crossbreak » Nov 29, 2017 8:26 am

Interesting. One vendor even has specs for the 150mm motor.

https://wholesaler.alibaba.com/product- ... 8512fWdaXl
The spec as following:
MOTOR: MP15470
KV: 27
MAX POWER: 35KW
WIRE WINDS:
MAX AMP: 400A
ESC:350A/400A
MAX VOLT: 120V
NO LOAD CURRENT(20v testing voltage): 0.9A
RESISTANCE (mOhm): .94
SIZE: 154 x 69.5( without shaft )
Stator: 135*35mm
WEIGHT (kg):3.5
SHAFT: 15mm Accessory pack: Yes
Attachments
Motor Data V4.35.xls
(217.5 KiB) Downloaded 14 times

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Re: Motor comparison spreadsheet

Post by madin88 » Nov 29, 2017 1:13 pm

toolman2 wrote:
Nov 24, 2017 7:02 pm
The NeuMotors L8057 specs look impressive, anyone want to get one to me for sorting out with halls and testing? -just of curiosity, ill then post the results up and send it back..
Will send you a PM.
I really consider of going with this motor for a project as the size and mouting option would be optimal.
As for the halls i thought about using such board:
http://alienpowersystem.com/shop/brushl ... 20-degree/

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Re: Motor comparison spreadsheet

Post by speedmd » Nov 30, 2017 8:58 am

The size of the 150 look to be very nice for ebikes. Having it available with installed halls is great also.

Toolman2, the copper fill looks like it is much lower than it could be going by the web photos. Is this accurate and why the rewind was done prior to serious performance testing? What KV did you settle on? How much weight did filling it end up adding? Effect cooling much? Both the rotor drive face and stator core lends them self to some improvements in that regard.

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Re: Motor comparison spreadsheet

Post by toolman2 » Nov 30, 2017 9:36 am

The 120-100 or CA series motor (also with a bit more quality and watercooling as the colossus) is a pretty good motor, the Chinese style specs mean nothing im afraid -and this motor would be about 2 or 3% less efficient than the 154 motor but i don't think can be beaten for torque in the 120mm diameter category.
Good for 38.5 Nm output (at the 1500w of total loss that i consider acceptable for these kinds of motors and very is close to a literal continuous rating with fan cooling)
Yes they have pretty high no load current, but that's what you get for a given rpm with a high pole count motor, its doing a lot of electrical rpm and is designed (as it turns out suits our desire for single stage reduction) for high torque at low loss. -ei the "bht 1000w" motor uses around double the power for equal torque output and is way bigger and weighs 1.7 times more. Let me know if you want vids of a carefully measured 0 to 50kph in 2 seconds acceleration test and dabbling with smokers etc, but bear in mind this was all with a half length (30mm stator) 120-70..

Yep, id go along with that speedmd. a 35mm stack 154mm motor would be a real good thing, just checked and it was 57Nm output for the 50mm stator so you should see right on 40Nm and easier to drive than the 50mm one and the 0.2mm lams give surprisingly low no load losses for a 40 magnet motor, these motors have a lot of room for copper and i ended up with about 5mohlms with my 64kv rewind and that (along with its inductance) is about half of the joby. Id maby go 30-45kv for ease of use and a comfortable 8-10KW.

Madin i got your pm and happy to answer it here if you are, in short yes, get an 80mm sensor board and lets check this motor out properly.
Im in Aus and will post it back to you.
-will get back to the rest shortly.

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Re: Motor comparison spreadsheet

Post by toolman2 » Dec 03, 2017 8:23 am

Just to fill in the gaps:

Joby JM1 0.01 ohms phase to phase.
inductance 21.7uH.
uses around 590w to do 8500rpm.

JM1s 0.015 ohms
inductance about 28uH
used about 580w to do 8000rpm -it was an early one before they went to thinner 0.12mm lams.
and the rest of the specs in the spreadsheet are correct.

The 154mm outrunner as it came ordered as 35kv before rewind. (40 magnets, 36 teeth) and 4.9kg
0.0263 ohms.
33.6kv
and it did 1205 rpm on 35ish volts and used 44w.
-thats as far as i got before the std windings shorted.
there is a lot of room for copper in these motors, 643g was std and about 900g went in to the rewind.

measurements from the core:
slot depth 21.73mm
tooth width 3.48mm
stator id 84.77mm
slot opening width 2.27mm
slot opening depth 1.17mm
and stator od 139.14mm

And the can:
magnets 4 by 8.5 by 50mm
can od 153.8mm
can (or magnet) id 140.3mm

Let me know if there's any other info needed.

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Re: Motor comparison spreadsheet

Post by madin88 » Dec 03, 2017 8:33 am

toolman2 wrote:
Dec 03, 2017 8:23 am
Just to fill in the gaps:

Joby JM1 0.01 ohms phase to phase.
inductance 21.7uH.
uses around 590w to do 8500rpm.
what was the kV?

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Re: Motor comparison spreadsheet

Post by toolman2 » Dec 03, 2017 8:36 am

About 98kv

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Re: Motor comparison spreadsheet

Post by ltu » Dec 06, 2017 1:47 pm

hello

its will be interesting about your test with the 12070 motor on your bike an with the 154120 motor.
you use the kelly controller(model) for each?

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