Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Mar 18, 2017 2:27 am

Cowardlyduck wrote:I have kind of done it here first...
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 0#p1111068
Image

Check the link above for all the details, but that is how I pump 2X the power through my Leaf.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Cowardlyduck » Mar 18, 2017 6:40 am

markz wrote:I guess what I wanted to know is what are you pushing out of the motor in terms of wattage in a 20" or 24" wheel then I can compare to everyone else rocking a 26" Leaf 1500W
Well, I use 3" tires on my 24" rim, so realistically it's about the same as a 26" wheel with a thinner tyre...so not sure how comparible it really is to a regular 24" setup.

That being said, I have been hitting 5-6KW peak regularly, and the highest I've hit was 7.8KW peak. As mentioned earlier, you could easily hit 10KW peak or more with this motor. It's not the peak power that limit's it, it's the continuous power.
I manage about 2-3KW continuous with my active cooling fans running depending on ambient temps. With a stock, sealed motor I would not push past 1-1.5KW continuous in any wheel size.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by goosenoose » Mar 18, 2017 3:54 pm

what size spokes do i need for this on a 700c front wheel?

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by markz » Mar 19, 2017 1:48 am

With the Leaf motors, do you get to choose what Turn Count you want?

And which of the two online stores would be recommended?

http://leafbike.com/
http://www.leafmotor.com/

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Cowardlyduck » Mar 19, 2017 5:47 am

I think I used Leafbike.com.

From memory, I did not specify my turn count and got the 5T which just so happens to have the best copper fill I think, so I'm happy with it. I think 5T is the default option, so if that's what you want you shouldn't need to specify.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Swe » Mar 19, 2017 7:34 am

4T is the default if I remember correct, and that is also what the first post here with all info says. But you can just write what T you want and they can probably fix that for you.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by markz » Mar 19, 2017 2:30 pm

I dont mind 4T, go with 3T to gear it *whats the correct wording? up/down?* Unless there are fixed parameters of course, like controller, desired speed, rim, battery.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by amberwolf » Mar 19, 2017 3:11 pm

AFAICR:
-- more turns = less speed = more torque
-- less turns = more speed = less torque
for otherwise the same controller and battery input to the motor

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Cowardlyduck » Mar 19, 2017 5:13 pm

Yeah, I wasn't sure on the default being 5T, so I guess it must actually be 4T and that is probably what I've got. :lol:

I'm not too fussed with turn count TBH as it still goes way faster than I need on 75V. :shock:

Cheers
High Power LiPo wiring harnesses - 4P - XT90, HXT4mm, 5.5mm. 200Amp+ capable. Global shipping.

Modified Stealth Fighter - Force air cooled Leaf motor @ 5KW, Heat-sinked Adaptto Mini-E. Battery = 20AH, 72V LiPo.
Cowardlyducks - Stealth Fighter Videos

BikeE recumbent commuter - Golden motor, 6Fet Infineon, 20AH 12S LiPo, with on-board solar charging.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by goosenoose » Mar 20, 2017 1:26 am

Newb here considering this motor for commuter build. Would this overpower a steel front fork even with grin torque arms installed? Donor bike is a steel SS bike.. (http://wabicycles.com/classic-tech-specs/

I am partial to a front hub setup because I want to isolate the complexity of the e hub from my drive train and have flexibility to exchange it with just a normal wheel for ride with just me and the dog.

I'm planning on having the battery, controller, and other componentry up front on a front pannier supported handlebar bag so I can keep things modular.

I'm not interested in wheelies and will be almost exclusively on pave.

Would a front hub setup be safe at 20-30 mph speeds? Should I look at a 6t winding if this motor for the torque?

I know I'm flying in the face of some enthusiast guidance with this implementation (higher powered front hub installation on rigid road bike geometry). Interested however on suitability/safety in particular use case. I read traction becomes an issue on hills because lack of weight... Would this be less of an issue if I keep the battery and controller loading up front? I expect to have approx 20lbs commuter bags weighting the rear when I have motor on.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by markz » Mar 20, 2017 5:46 am

Do you have a Cycle Analyst?
If so then you can limit the power.
If not, you can limit the power via the controller if it programmable, if its not the a physical change to the controller via the shunt modification.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by goosenoose » Mar 20, 2017 12:19 pm

markz wrote:Do you have a Cycle Analyst?
If so then you can limit the power.
If not, you can limit the power via the controller if it programmable, if its not the a physical change to the controller via the shunt modification.
Considering both options in analysis of alternatives, yes.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by cycborg » Mar 20, 2017 12:54 pm

goosenoose wrote:Newb here considering this motor for commuter build. Would this overpower a steel front fork even with grin torque arms installed? Donor bike is a steel SS bike.. (http://wabicycles.com/classic-tech-specs/
This seems like a beast of a motor for a bike like that. I mean, aesthetically, it would completely overwhelm the clean design. And functionally, you could tune the controller so the motor wouldn't overpower the bike, but you'd be leaving a lot of power on the table.

I'd look at a small gear hub like the Q100 or Q128, or the Bafang G01 from ebikes.ca. If you search the forum for those, you'll see that they're fairly popular with these lean frames, and they can provide adequate speed and power.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by goosenoose » Mar 20, 2017 2:00 pm

cycborg wrote:
goosenoose wrote:Newb here considering this motor for commuter build. Would this overpower a steel front fork even with grin torque arms installed? Donor bike is a steel SS bike.. (http://wabicycles.com/classic-tech-specs/
This seems like a beast of a motor for a bike like that. I mean, aesthetically, it would completely overwhelm the clean design. And functionally, you could tune the controller so the motor wouldn't overpower the bike, but you'd be leaving a lot of power on the table.

I'd look at a small gear hub like the Q100 or Q128, or the Bafang G01 from ebikes.ca. If you search the forum for those, you'll see that they're fairly popular with these lean frames, and they can provide adequate speed and power.
Is dd Regen worth the weight? That and the cost:power values are really why I've gravitated to a dd build over geared

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Chalo » Mar 20, 2017 2:11 pm

cycborg wrote:This seems like a beast of a motor for a bike like that. I mean, aesthetically, it would completely overwhelm the clean design. And functionally, you could tune the controller so the motor wouldn't overpower the bike, but you'd be leaving a lot of power on the table.
What he said. If you like that bike, you certainly won't like it once you add that much motor and battery to it. It'll be shaky, with poor handling and poor balance. The motor and controller plus enough battery to drive them will weigh a lot more than the bike itself.

I concur that you should seek out a small, lightweight motor to match that ride. Furthermore, I think you should use as small and lightweight a battery as your distance permits, and mount it in a top tube bag or a seat bag.

But if you want a classic looking bike that can haul weight and haul ass, look for MTBs from the first half of the '80s. They'll be sturdy enough, with relaxed enough geometry, to do the job you're talking about. They're not terribly easy to find, but often very cheap to buy. The closest thing you can get in a new bike is a Surly Long Haul Trucker with 26" wheels. That has more upright touring bike geometry, though.
goosenoose wrote:Is dd Regen worth the weight? That and the cost:power values are really why I've gravitated to a dd build over geared


Short answer? No. On a bike like that, ridden as a bicycle, you'll lose at least as much on DD motor drag as you win back on regen. Regen introduces a host of reliability issues that will get you sooner or later. And in the meantime you're dragging around a heap of extra weight that makes your bike suck.

If you want good range and efficiency: keep it light, keep pedaling, keep speeds moderate. Regen is for trains.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by cycborg » Mar 20, 2017 4:25 pm

goosenoose wrote:Is dd Regen worth the weight? That and the cost:power values are really why I've gravitated to a dd build over geared
I love regen, but it's not worth it for this bike. My bike was 40 lb before I started putting assist components on it. If regen is a priority then I'd use a heavier frame, and even then you could pair it with a narrower DD hub that would be lighter and still be powerful enough (though still not nearly as light as a geared hub).

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Chalo » Mar 21, 2017 1:06 am

eTrike wrote:DD hub regen is one of the key benefits, and can add 5-10% range
Only if you ride it like a motorcycle. If you ride it like a bicycle, pedaling whenever power is needed and coasting whenever it's feasible, DD costs range, even with regen. It taxes your pedaling and strips away the utility of coasting with its built-in drag.

I understand and observe firsthand that in fact, most e-bikers ride their bikes like feeble motorcycles, pedaling ineffectually or not at all. But I don't think that's the intention of someone who chooses the bike that the OP specified.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by markz » Mar 21, 2017 2:11 pm

Yeah Chalo is right yet again, he hit the nail on the head.
I can't think of a good analogy along the same lines for a beaver. But beaver on head kidding aside, Direct Drives are for more throttle then pedaling, or ultimate silence over geared. Less moving parts to break down on D.D.'s

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Wheazel » Mar 21, 2017 4:15 pm

Agree that regen on a bicycle is much less energy gain than other vehicles with a different weight to aerodynamics relationship.
To get any extended range from regen on a bike you need to stop and go alot. (waste energy)
The regen on my cargobike might give me ~3% back, the numbers are not very happy.

For normal circumstances most energy is wasted in moving air around, and that energy is hard to regain.
BUT I still think a dd hub with e brake is very convenient and a nice quality of life feature.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Cowardlyduck » Mar 21, 2017 6:23 pm

I typically see 5-10% energy recovery from Regen, which on the 50km round trip commute I often do is an extra 2.5-5km range....not insignificant IMO.

I also have issues with my rear brakes preventing them from being very strong. Combined with regen it's a non-issue as I can easily lock up the rear with both braking mechanisms combined.

Also consider, the cogging losses from a motor like the Leaf motor with 0.35mm laminations, are very minor compared to previous DD hubs and far less of a factor. If someone actually analysed it, I would not be surprised if the rolling resistance from a free-wheeling geared motor clutch was not that much less than a 0.35mm lamination DD hub.

Cheers
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Wheazel » Mar 22, 2017 8:38 am

It seems to be quite well established that the leaf 1500w is a capable motor.
But without looking through this long thread, have anyone rewound one of these motors?
Is there any potential gain in doing so? I am thinking with thicker wire as larsb is rewinding the revolt 120pro.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by cycborg » Mar 22, 2017 9:15 am

Wheazel wrote:It seems to be quite well established that the leaf 1500w is a capable motor.
But without looking through this long thread, have anyone rewound one of these motors?
Is there any potential gain in doing so? I am thinking with thicker wire as larsb is rewinding the revolt 120pro.
You don't have to look too far - from the photo of the stator on the first page, it looks like there's not nearly as much empty space, compared to larsb's stator photo. On the other hand, the slots are more square, so rectangular wire might pack better.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Allex » Apr 06, 2017 12:08 pm

Got my new 1500W 5T motor in 24" rim.
I asked them to install KTY84 Sensor so it will be plug and play with Adaptto. No extra cost, nice service!

With My 18S battery and 4T at 0 OVS I get 104km/h with no load
With this new 5T I get 94km/h This was quite a surprice as I expected a lower speed.

Edit:
Just did a quick run and wow, this motor is on another level compared to 3t. Huge diff in torque, it just pulls up so much easier now!
Hit 75km/h without OVS on 18S battery with ease. I was struggling to get the heat up to 100°C at 65A/175A phase where with 3T it was very easy....
I wonder if 5T is even better?

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Swe » Apr 09, 2017 12:22 pm

Nice they can fix other temp sensor! But what do you mean Allex. You had a 4T before, but you are saying the 5T has much better torque than 3T? What are you really comparing with?

And strange I thought from earlier discussions that they should be almost equal torque given same watt...

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by spinningmagnets » Apr 09, 2017 1:07 pm

All "watts" are not the same. If we assume an input of 4000W, then it can be 72V X 55A, or...44V X 91A

Which would be "better", which would be "worse"? Of course if we assume 52V/60V, then...the differences would be less dramatic.

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