Designing of 12F 100kERPM Sensored/Sensorless controller

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VasiliSk
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Designing of 12F 100kERPM Sensored/Sensorless controller

Post by VasiliSk » Jan 12, 2016 3:01 pm

Since finally i've got some results, it's time to get feedback :)
I'm designing 12F high efficiency controller, capable of running 100kERPM in sensorless/sensored mode. Up to 200A 30sec and 120A continious phase current with proper cooling.
Main advantage - using high switching speed of mosfets, proper designed power plane - low inductance, direct phase current control (capable of current request response almost instant), overcurrent protection (but not overregen :twisted: ), temperature protection, dual sided cooling for mosfets. Fits in 9F infineon casing. Futher it will take up even less space
Image
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phase currents:
Image

It is 100V mosfet and capable to run up to ~90V. I've seen 7200W from this installed on my Adventure Bike, it kicks ass when you release brake with full throttle.
As for now im succeed running sensorless in less than 60 ERPM and up to 100kERPM stable, but got some problems from higher amps on my "cromotor", current recovery lasts for too long sometimes. Also i have no test bench, so i'm run all test on my ass :D
Also implemented as for now step-up converter mode (charge battery through motor or any other inductance). In plan using bluetooth or wifi for configuring and flashing new softwares.
Suggestions?

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Re: Designing of 12F 100kERPM Sensored/Sensorless controller

Post by neptronix » Jan 13, 2016 10:15 am

My suggestion is to sell it to the public. That controller sounds effin' awesome. :)
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

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Re: Designing of 12F 100kERPM Sensored/Sensorless controller

Post by parabellum » Jan 13, 2016 10:38 am

Awesome! :D
Is it trapezoidal?

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Re: Designing of 12F 100kERPM Sensored/Sensorless controller

Post by VasiliSk » Jan 13, 2016 12:25 pm

neptronix i should adopt it to mass production first. there is a small bunch of problems.. moving in this way:
Image

parabellum yep. maybe later there will be sine wave avaible (DTC-SVM, FOC or simple sine PWM) but not now.

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Re: Designing of 12F 100kERPM Sensored/Sensorless controller

Post by Punx0r » Jan 13, 2016 7:14 pm

Does it have voltage or current throttle?

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Re: Designing of 12F 100kERPM Sensored/Sensorless controller

Post by VasiliSk » Jan 14, 2016 12:49 am

it is capable of current + speed, or only current control. Working on tesla-style driving, where you need only throttle to start/stop

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Re: Designing of 12F 100kERPM Sensored/Sensorless controller

Post by neptronix » Jan 14, 2016 3:33 am

Prove that it can drive some nearly impossible motor to drive, like the colossus motors from the Croatian crew, or one of hobbyking's larger rotomaxes, then offer up a few samples for sale... and go from there.

These large RC motors with high RPM capabilities and high pole counts are currently just waiting for the right ebike-sized controller to be exploited.
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

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Re: Designing of 12F 100kERPM Sensored/Sensorless controller

Post by VasiliSk » Jan 14, 2016 4:09 am

the only high pole count motor i have to test ERPMs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RcsN_ZUSRE

Predator 30-8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKp6QjuzmMM

these was made on old pcb

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Re: Designing of 12F 100kERPM Sensored/Sensorless controller

Post by parabellum » Jan 14, 2016 8:43 am

VasiliSk wrote:the only high pole count motor i have to test ERPMs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RcsN_ZUSRE

Predator 30-8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKp6QjuzmMM

these was made on old pcb
Was 124000erpm controller or voltage limited? What is the practical erpm limit for your controller?

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Re: Designing of 12F 100kERPM Sensored/Sensorless controller

Post by circuit » Jan 14, 2016 9:28 am

neptronix wrote:These large RC motors with high RPM capabilities and high pole counts are currently just waiting for the right ebike-sized controller to be exploited.
Rotomax, at least 150cc, is actually quite nice and no too hard to drive. Inductance is 17uH, which is still manageable by most cheapo controllers.
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Re: Designing of 12F 100kERPM Sensored/Sensorless controller

Post by VasiliSk » Jan 14, 2016 9:50 am

parabellum controller. goal 100k

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Re: Designing of 12F 100kERPM Sensored/Sensorless controller

Post by neptronix » Jan 14, 2016 9:58 am

VasiliSk wrote:the only high pole count motor i have to test ERPMs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RcsN_ZUSRE

Predator 30-8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKp6QjuzmMM

these was made on old pcb

super impressive, bro! now, let's see it with a load on it.. :twisted:
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

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Re: Designing of 12F 100kERPM Sensored/Sensorless controller

Post by neptronix » Jan 14, 2016 10:02 am

circuit wrote:
neptronix wrote:These large RC motors with high RPM capabilities and high pole counts are currently just waiting for the right ebike-sized controller to be exploited.
Rotomax, at least 150cc, is actually quite nice and no too hard to drive. Inductance is 17uH, which is still manageable by most cheapo controllers.
I remember checking ES for a year or so to see if anyone was actually using them... and didn't find anything.

So anyway; easy to drive, you say? who's running one at full tilt on this forum?
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

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Re: Designing of 12F 100kERPM Sensored/Sensorless controller

Post by SjwNz » Jan 27, 2016 4:42 am

neptronix wrote:
circuit wrote:
neptronix wrote:These large RC motors with high RPM capabilities and high pole counts are currently just waiting for the right ebike-sized controller to be exploited.
Rotomax, at least 150cc, is actually quite nice and no too hard to drive. Inductance is 17uH, which is still manageable by most cheapo controllers.
I remember checking ES for a year or so to see if anyone was actually using them... and didn't find anything.

So anyway; easy to drive, you say? who's running one at full tilt on this forum?
I am only running the Rotomax 50cc motor at 3kw with my DIY controller but would like to play with the 150cc some time in the future.

Good work on your Controller, I want to try Sensor-less sometime.

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Re: Designing of 12F 100kERPM Sensored/Sensorless controller

Post by VasiliSk » Feb 15, 2016 9:59 am

some progress on dyno. soon i will get real data from rv160s
Image

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Re: Designing of 12F 100kERPM Sensored/Sensorless controller

Post by peters » Feb 15, 2016 1:58 pm

On your video I saw STM Studio for a second. Which uC are you using if it's not a secret?
I just started to experiment with STM32F3DISCOVERY board and hope its 72MHz will be enough for sensorless FOC in C.

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Re: Designing of 12F 100kERPM Sensored/Sensorless controller

Post by macribs » Feb 15, 2016 5:53 pm

The future of e-biking looks bright, amazing work.

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Re: Designing of 12F 100kERPM Sensored/Sensorless controller

Post by VasiliSk » Feb 16, 2016 2:08 am

peters wrote:On your video I saw STM Studio for a second. Which uC are you using if it's not a secret?
I just started to experiment with STM32F3DISCOVERY board and hope its 72MHz will be enough for sensorless FOC in C.
it is cheap stm32f103. i not planning to run FOC on this board, it is much more expensive in hardware

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Re: Designing of 12F 100kERPM Sensored/Sensorless controller

Post by kiwifiat » Feb 20, 2016 4:27 pm

peters wrote:On your video I saw STM Studio for a second. Which uC are you using if it's not a secret?
I just started to experiment with STM32F3DISCOVERY board and hope its 72MHz will be enough for sensorless FOC in C.
The STM32F103 has more than enough power to run FOC in sensorless mode. Download the free IAR EWARM and ST's Motor Control Workbench http://www.st.com/web/catalog/tools/FM1 ... m32100-pr1# and you can compile the FOC code that includes field weakening in under the 32K limit for the code size restricted EWARM. A cheap fleebay STLink usb dongle and a cheap USD4.46 Maple Mini clone (STM32F103CBT6) and you are on your way. I am playing about with ST's patented single shunt FOC topology now which if successful should make for a very low cost FOC controller.
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Re: Designing of 12F 100kERPM Sensored/Sensorless controller

Post by VasiliSk » Mar 05, 2016 10:40 am

Test bench ready to use! Yay!
Image
Image

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHjNpKjf1SA

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Re: Designing of 12F 100kERPM Sensored/Sensorless controller

Post by VasiliSk » Mar 09, 2016 4:14 pm

LCD is coming... it is gonna be multilanguage and custom font supported :)
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Re: Designing of 12F 100kERPM Sensored/Sensorless controller

Post by VasiliSk » Mar 22, 2016 3:07 am

Got this data from RV160 short using trapetzoidal control
7 pole pair
25 wire turn on tooth, 6 wires in parallel D0.8mm
Delta commutation, virtual wire cross-section 5,2 mm2
80mOhm
300uH
33.36kV (RPM/V)
0.22kA (Nm/A)
this gives me 39.6Nm on shaft of motor with 180 phase amps

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Re: Designing of 12F 100kERPM Sensored/Sensorless controller

Post by VasiliSk » Apr 21, 2016 8:59 am

I've run some tests on rv160s motor. On this graph horisontal - rpm, vertical - power consumption...
Image
as you can see when motor runs 4k+ RPM, power rises above 1kW!! I have find out that main problem of such losses is a big bearing, it is heats up instantly when motor spinning 4k.
Here is explanation vid: https://youtu.be/qTRJ4jqASRA it is in russian, but easy to understand where is problems
So i replaced this original NSK 6814 bearing to NTN 6814, cover now spins much longer!!

And finally some photo of RV160s
Image
Image
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magnet width 25mm... winding NOT 6 parallel wire, but 5. im quite dissapointed with this motor

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Re: Designing of 12F 100kERPM Sensored/Sensorless controller

Post by straby187 » Apr 21, 2016 8:25 pm

Can you verify the lamination thickness?

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Re: Designing of 12F 100kERPM Sensored/Sensorless controller

Post by VasiliSk » Apr 22, 2016 1:30 am

64 laminations with overall thickness 22.8mm, this gives about 0.35 per lam

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