VESC-controller

Electric Motors and Controllers
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marcos
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Re: VESC-controller

Post by marcos » Dec 13, 2017 6:32 am

Can you use the same schematic of my H-bridge?

You would only need to remove the igbts and dc link from the schematic as far as I recall. Only layout changes, its very quick, did that a couple of weeks ago.

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Re: VESC-controller

Post by marcos » Dec 13, 2017 10:13 am

I just cloned the repo, your infineon driver is an exact pin compatible part to my TI gate driver. You could use my exact same schematic and only replace that chip part#.
The only difference is TI has separate OUTH/OUTL and infineons only has a single out, I'd short those pins (well I'd use the TI part)

Remove the dynamic gate driver sheet (voltage_control.sch), you wont use it.

Also, add all the .bak files to the .gitignore files, you're uploading twice the amount of data to your repo, it will grow huge sooner or later.

Lemme know if you want further review. Cheers

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Re: VESC-controller

Post by ENNOID » Dec 13, 2017 11:55 am

I'll do for the .bak files. I'm new to github and all this stuff ...

I will give your gate driver a try also. I think it is worth comparing different designs. I will just chop the top (igbt & dc-link) & I'll put pins compatible with my brick IGBTs

For the dynamic gate driver sheet, I guess this option needs some code modification from the VESC project to make it functionnal...

For TI parts, that's true, I should get the free samples also to save on cost :P

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Re: VESC-controller

Post by marcos » Dec 13, 2017 5:31 pm

Also exclude the .kicad_pcb-bak
Thats the biggest file of a board project.

Glad to hear you'll put my schematic to use. Keep me in the loop.

About dynamic gate driver supply, its basic mode of operation requires a quick modification of the vesc firmware. It would be like tuning the turn OFF resistor by software instead of actually changing resistors.

A more elaborate operation mode that adjust -VEE according wich part of tha sine wave is being generated will require a more involved firmware intervention at ISR level (tesla patent)
This takes quite a bit of pcb space.

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Re: VESC-controller

Post by ENNOID » Dec 18, 2017 12:24 pm

Hi Marcos,

I worked a bit on the gate driver project. Not finished though. It has a ACM1301 based phase voltage sense circuit taken from the original Half-bridge design.

Is there a plan for DC bus monitoring on the half-bridge driver? Because the vesc controller needs this. Maybe I should add a DC-bus V-sense circuit on the board directly and only populate one out of the 3 boards?

- Infineon or TI's Desat chips can be used. (added the 0ohm resistor for TI chip)
- 2 layer board
- The original design taken from wolfspeed is a bit asymmetrical on the gate power output capacitors which is weird to me... (probably because the design is oriented for driving SIC mosfet instead of IGBT (lower gate capacitance and smaller currents are required) maybe I will change that, but in the future SIC might become a better option than IGBT anyway...)
- I really like the idea of a single IXD-609 or IXD-614 mosfet chip instead of the dual transistor for driving the gate. Is there any reason why you guys are all using dual PNP/NPN transistors?
- I read a bit on active clamping on the half-bridge post and I don't know if I should add this feature yet... I need some advice on this... there is still some place left on the board anyway

Here is a preview of the preliminary design.

Image




Design Files can be found here.
https://github.com/EnnoidMe/ENNOID-Dual-Gate-Driver

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Re: VESC-controller

Post by marcos » Dec 18, 2017 1:42 pm

Yes, you need to measure DC voltage. I used the same circuit for measuring phase voltage, and added it to the interface board. If you dont use an interface board you can make a little pcb and attach it to the bus bar, thats what I had planned to do. You can have that circuit in the gate driver as well, remember it takes quite a bit of space, you are dealing with large resistors.

About mosfet boost circuits, we have been told to stay away from mosfet drivers, something to do with noise and ringing I think.

What module are you using?

In the schematic a see a very strong low pass filter for the pwm, you sure you want that?

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Re: VESC-controller

Post by ENNOID » Dec 18, 2017 2:05 pm

Good to know for mosfet driver.

I have a bunch of cm300du-24nfh modules that i got for a dime (removed from wind turbine converter assemblies)

Values in the PWM circuit are wrong 47k resistor instead of 1k beside the cap should be written

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Re: VESC-controller

Post by marcos » Dec 19, 2017 9:50 am

About your series gate resistors. I see you used a melf package, you need a non-inductive resistor and those are often wound which effectively makes them a coil, unless you order a more expensive non-inductive flavor that has half of the turns in one direction and the other half in the other direction, or something like that. You need non-inductive there.
If you use an smd part you won't have the inductance because of the 2D nature of its construction, but chances are you will have a temperature/space issue, they are difficult to heatsink.

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Re: VESC-controller

Post by marcos » Dec 23, 2017 10:38 am

ENNOID, watch out, the wolfspeed schematic you took as a reference is intended for SiC drives, with very fast rise times. Take a very close look at your blanking capacitor, if you DNP it you could have the desat triggered because your IGBT is much slower than a SiC switch. 100pF is a reasonable value to start playing.

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Re: VESC-controller

Post by ENNOID » Dec 24, 2017 1:54 pm

Thank you Marco,

I recently read the document tiduc70a.pdf which explain this scenario about the blanking capacitor. The blanking cap value needs to be adjusted accordingly to the IGBT turn on time specs.

I also learned about the "adjustable Soft Turnoff" feature. The design from Wolfspeed with the IXD-609 instead of the BJT make this feature not really possible because of the nature of mosfet :( , this doc also answered my previous question I had last week about it...

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Re: VESC-controller

Post by ScottyWarpNine » Dec 26, 2017 12:34 pm

I've been watching this project for a while and just made an account here. Is there anything I can do to help? I've got mostly hardware and PCB manufacturing experience, but also a little coding. I have some big IGBT's here so I could build up a prototype and do some testing if needed. I've played around with a VESC on an electric scooter that I converted, I'd like the next step to be a motorcycle 8)

Regardless, this project looks amazing and I can't wait to see the outcome. I've seen a number of EV inverter projects rise and fall without reaching it's full potential and I hope that doesn't happen here. I think it's great that it is built off of an established platform.

Cheers from Akron, Ohio

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Re: VESC-controller

Post by marcos » Dec 26, 2017 8:57 pm

Welcome along!
I think this motordrive would get the most benefit from testing. So far it has been under test in our lab, with a propeller load and in a very cool EV.

There are some firmware and GUI tasks to do but I'm afraid if it takes you a week and benjamin commits it at the same time spending 10min.

I have 4 people interested in a control board so I could order 10 but I'm waiting until the car gets a 100% reliable operation, it needs more beating up.

Which IGBTs do you have? Maybe you can make an interface board for your gate drivers and let me know if there is enough information to acomplish that, such that others can do the same.

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Re: VESC-controller

Post by ScottyWarpNine » Dec 26, 2017 9:58 pm

marcos wrote:
Dec 26, 2017 8:57 pm
Welcome along!
I think this motordrive would get the most benefit from testing. So far it has been under test in our lab, with a propeller load and in a very cool EV.

There are some firmware and GUI tasks to do but I'm afraid if it takes you a week and benjamin commits it at the same time spending 10min.

I have 4 people interested in a control board so I could order 10 but I'm waiting until the car gets a 100% reliable operation, it needs more beating up.

Which IGBTs do you have? Maybe you can make an interface board for your gate drivers and let me know if there is enough information to acomplish that, such that others can do the same.
I have a set of IOR GA200TS60U IGBT's I found for a good price a while back. 600V max, 200A max

I can try designing an interface board. If you need another tester I could throw it into a motorcycle frame and put it through it's paces :lol:

Other than bike hub motors, has anybody found a source for relatively cheap high power BLDC motors? It would be cool if we could use induction motors, they're real cheap from any industrial surplus place. I don't think FOC control of BLDC and asynchronous AC would be very different, but I could be wrong.

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Re: VESC-controller

Post by marcos » Dec 26, 2017 10:40 pm

ScottyWarpNine wrote:
Dec 26, 2017 9:58 pm
I can try designing an interface board. If you need another tester I could throw it into a motorcycle frame and put it through it's paces :lol:
I can try to help. If its quality work I can add it to the repo
ScottyWarpNine wrote:
Dec 26, 2017 9:58 pm
It would be cool if we could use induction motors, they're real cheap from any industrial surplus place. I don't think FOC control of BLDC and asynchronous AC would be very different, but I could be wrong.
VESC doesn't support induction motors yet, but its a planned feature with already some internal commands and debugging tools

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Re: VESC-controller

Post by ScottyWarpNine » Dec 26, 2017 11:41 pm

Is kiCAD the preferred format? I've only ever used Eagle, but if need be I can figure out a kiCAD, especially as it is open source.

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Re: VESC-controller

Post by marcos » Dec 27, 2017 4:35 am

Yes, to this git repo I will only accept boards made with kicad

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Re: VESC-controller

Post by ENNOID » Dec 27, 2017 11:39 am

Hi ScottyWarpNine,

I think we are looking more or less for the same thing here. :D using marcos's board with different hardware. I don't have the vesc board yet, but I started two weeks ago in my spare time to work on a V0.1 DIY dual gate driver for this board.

Just to let you know, I'm using a daily build of kicad on ubuntu 17.10. Previous versions of kicad might not be able to open the files.

I will also create a V0.2 dual gate driver approach based on the schematics from tiduc70a.pdf. I discovered some limitations of my v0.1 approach. I will test V0.1 when it will be ready anyway.

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Re: VESC-controller

Post by ENNOID » Jan 03, 2018 11:16 am

Hi all,

I made a lot of changes compared to the original design of my dual gate driver that should be compatible with the VESC board.

I need some feedbacks before sending the file to Fab if someone is interested to do so.

https://github.com/EnnoidMe/ENNOID-Dual-Gate-Driver

@Marcos: On your H-bridge design on github, I see that the signal input for PWM are both connected to the Bottom & Top side of the driver (IN+ & IN- are the same for Bottom and Top driver) which is not ok...signals are different for low & high side normally...

Thanks

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Re: VESC-controller

Post by marcos » Jan 03, 2018 5:41 pm

I'd like to see a clear line in the top level showing where the isolation is. Like with a couple of clear blue lines showing the isolation.
other than that I don't see any particular issue with the gate driver.

About my half bridge (btw not the same as an H bridge) that PWM connection was very on purpose, take a closer look. When pwm top is '1' it forces bottom gate driver to be turned off. Its an extra measure to further block a shoot through scenario due to EMI or wiring issues.

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Re: VESC-controller

Post by ENNOID » Jan 04, 2018 11:43 am

Thanks Marco.

Well I'll do for the schematics. I know, they are still not polished at all, I will improve that soon.

For the PWM connection, I see now... very good idea by the way.

I just ordered 10 PCBs on "elecrow" for 17 bucks US and some free samples from TI. Will test those PCBs soon I hope. :)

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Re: VESC-controller

Post by ScottyWarpNine » Jan 17, 2018 8:38 pm

I'm thinking of getting some controller boards made through Seeed or Elecrow. Or should I hold off for a newer revision?

KiCAD is a bit different from what I'm used to, but I'm slowly learning the ropes. I'm practicing with a few of my other projects, but soon I'd like to design a gate driver for my IGBTs.

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Re: VESC-controller

Post by marcos » Jan 17, 2018 9:30 pm

Hold on a bit of you can. This project is getting very very awesome and I'm spending a lot of time on it. A LOT. Just not posting news here until I have the new hardware working, its all about the wow factor.

So far next version will have same mounting points and same schematic, but I need some changes for upping the game here that will be useful for all builds.

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Re: VESC-controller

Post by ScottyWarpNine » Jan 17, 2018 9:40 pm

Man, don't get my hopes too high up :lol:

The suspense is killing me!

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Re: VESC-controller

Post by marcos » Jan 17, 2018 10:58 pm

This week I need to define some mechanical assembly stuff so next week I can get my hands on the control board and unblock that thread, many people are waiting for it. We also have a chinese new year coming which will delay the pcb assembly.

The coolest builds come from customers because its a capital intensive development and apparently everyone has more money than me :p. But $ comes with NDAs so we cant share right away.

Just hold your horses for a while.

For those who are in a hurry PM me, I won't block or avoid supporting a new build, waiting for v0.3 is just a friendly suggestion.

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Re: VESC-controller

Post by marcos » Jan 23, 2018 10:42 pm

After thinking about controller packaging I came to realize that the first 2 versions couldn't be used without those green phoenix terminal blocks. You were able to piggyback the control board into a powerstage but you end stuck using those green screw terminals, no freedom to choose your signal connectors.

Image

So the main change for v0.3 is an extra header for user control and a header for motor position/temp input, they are on the right. Now it is possible to use this control board in a system that has its own set of connectors (a tesla drive or another controller for example) by just making an interface board, and this time the interface board can include all the required connectors.

Btw, usb is not exposed on those headers, because I don't want to encourage the use of usb (CAN is much better and supports the same features) and because it would break the controlled impedance signal path that usb requires (in practice it works, but still).

Also mounting points are now M4 and I'm keeping the top left free for future magic.

The image looks pretty but the actual cad file has a long list of drc errors that I'm working on. And as always silkscreens are messed up on the slightest change and will need some tidy up.
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