Mid drive vs Hub Motor for 10000 watt project

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flippy
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Re: Mid drive vs Hub Motor for 10000 watt project

Post by flippy » Jan 13, 2018 6:23 am

Just as a sidenote: how do you balance a hub motor? You cant screw it onto a regular tire balancing machine.

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Re: Mid drive vs Hub Motor for 10000 watt project

Post by e-beach » Jan 13, 2018 11:41 am

I am thinking you may have to build your own bubble balancer due to the axle shaft in the motor.
Finding a way to hang it from a rope to the ceiling might be an easier way to make one.

:D
Favorite Quote: "This is L.A., sugar. There is no 'over the top." --- Chris Erskine

Current build: Liahona w/ cheap front suspension and suspension seat post. Yescomusa 36v 800w generic front hub motor. 15ah Headway triangle mounted pack. Tronsung 30 amp,

Previous Build:1992 Trek Antelope 800 - Bone Crusher (no suspension) - Yescomusa 800 watt 36 volt front wheel kit. Don't do it! Get suspension!!!

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Re: Mid drive vs Hub Motor for 10000 watt project

Post by e-beach » Jan 13, 2018 11:59 am

Or it might be possible to do something like this with the motor in the bike and the tire propped up off the ground.

Favorite Quote: "This is L.A., sugar. There is no 'over the top." --- Chris Erskine

Current build: Liahona w/ cheap front suspension and suspension seat post. Yescomusa 36v 800w generic front hub motor. 15ah Headway triangle mounted pack. Tronsung 30 amp,

Previous Build:1992 Trek Antelope 800 - Bone Crusher (no suspension) - Yescomusa 800 watt 36 volt front wheel kit. Don't do it! Get suspension!!!

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Re: Mid drive vs Hub Motor for 10000 watt project

Post by johnnyz » Jan 13, 2018 4:23 pm

Interesting for sure...however, with a hub motor the magnets pulling on the stator would make this type of balancing impossible no?...Front wheel for sure...for me most of the problem are the really crappy tires these hubs have...When i get the new hub motor, Im getting a professional install of some good rubber and balancing.

BTW....16inch 6000W In-Wheel Hub Motor(45H) V3 for Electric Motorcycle: USD523

Shipping cost by Fedex: USD194

Total: USD717

Delivery time in 10days

Payment can be via Bank wire transfer or Paypal.

This beast can take 10500 watts and keep going and they will make it so that it will do 100 KPH and with an Aluminum core to absorb the heat its a great hub motor...
Last edited by johnnyz on Jan 14, 2018 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mid drive vs Hub Motor for 10000 watt project

Post by flippy » Jan 14, 2018 4:38 am

How much power do you actually need to sustain 100kph?

And yes, magnets makes regular gravity balancing impossible.

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Re: Mid drive vs Hub Motor for 10000 watt project

Post by johnnyz » Jan 14, 2018 10:46 am

flippy wrote:
Jan 14, 2018 4:38 am
How much power do you actually need to sustain 100kph?

And yes, magnets makes regular gravity balancing impossible.
My EMMO ZONE requires between 1450 and 2200 watts to maintain 55 kph. The law of Aerodynamics states that when you double the speed you need 4 times the power to MAINTAIN that speed. 1450 watts would be no wind, flat ..no incline, and 2200 would either be wind or slight incline. So taking the lower number of 1450 watts x 4= 5800 watts in ideal conditions or 8800 watts in less than ideal conditions.

The Zone weighs 240 lbs and 400 lbs with me on it.

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Re: Mid drive vs Hub Motor for 10000 watt project

Post by John in CR » Jan 15, 2018 1:24 am

I balance my hubbies quite simply using trial and error. I've used thick solder wrapped around spokes, extra long bolts using washers as the weights for bolt-on rims, as well as stick-on lead weights for car wheel balancing. It just depends on the wheel and how much out of balance it is for which method I use. They all boil down to spinning the wheel up with a significant added weight. If the wobble gets worse I mover the weight 180° and fine tune from there. With the washers on bolts method I put the wheel up horizontal so I can quickly just add washers to bolt(s) and centrifugal force and the threads stop them from flying off (undoing nuts would make the process too time consuming). With the car weight method I use doubled up tape to hold them in place until I get the balance right, and then use weights' sticky side only after getting perfect balance.

All of the methods are surprisingly quick and easy to achieve perfect balance (zero vibration at full no-load rpm. Before starting the balancing process, I make sure there's not an out of round condition causing out of balance due to a tire not being properly seated on the rim.

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Re: Mid drive vs Hub Motor for 10000 watt project

Post by flippy » Jan 16, 2018 12:46 am

that trick does not work with hub motors with the tire directly on it.

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Re: Mid drive vs Hub Motor for 10000 watt project

Post by johnnyz » Jan 16, 2018 10:05 pm

icherouveim wrote:
Jan 01, 2018 3:17 pm
Hello,

There is something else you should consider. My first battery pack I had 3 years ago it was made by 18650B panasonic cells. They were very weak, the battery pack was sagging alot. Just to give you an example when the battery pack was fully charged each cell was sagging at 3.3V!! while I was drawing only 4amps per cell and you draw almost 9! This battery pack is going to die very soon.

So firstly you need a new stronger battery pack and if you still have the same low top speed then you can change controller and or modify-replace your motor.
Thought I should reply to this...ifwhat you say is true about the sag at only 4amps per cell, then without a doubt you have WAY too HIGH RESISTANCE somewhere..and probably in the pack itself if it was assembled using crappy nickle strip especially on the series connections...that is causing the cells to sag...if not the pack then somewhere you got a bottleneck.....

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Re: Mid drive vs Hub Motor for 10000 watt project

Post by John in CR » Jan 18, 2018 10:47 pm

flippy wrote:
Jan 16, 2018 12:46 am
that trick does not work with hub motors with the tire directly on it.
Of course one or more of my methods work on motors with integrated rims. I've done it lots of times. I'd recommend the sticky weights method though, as adding weight at the disc brake bolts is more time consuming. I've pretty much adopted the sticky weight method for all my builds...simple and quick.

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Re: Mid drive vs Hub Motor for 10000 watt project

Post by flippy » Jan 19, 2018 2:28 am

John in CR wrote:
Jan 18, 2018 10:47 pm
flippy wrote:
Jan 16, 2018 12:46 am
that trick does not work with hub motors with the tire directly on it.
Of course one or more of my methods work on motors with integrated rims. I've done it lots of times. I'd recommend the sticky weights method though, as adding weight at the disc brake bolts is more time consuming. I've pretty much adopted the sticky weight method for all my builds...simple and quick.
how do you stick on lead on the edge were there is no flat space for it and how you you overcome the cogging force of the magnets during a balancing? do you rip all the magnets out?

not trying to be dumb but i just dont see anyone doing anything proper exept making a bunch of guesses and keep slapping on random weights at random locations until it shakes less.

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Re: Mid drive vs Hub Motor for 10000 watt project

Post by John in CR » Jan 19, 2018 6:41 am

flippy wrote:
Jan 19, 2018 2:28 am
how do you stick on lead on the edge were there is no flat space for it
There's always a place for them to stick except maybe some of those tiny hubbies with solid wheels molded onto the outside of the motor shell, but those don't spin fast enough to require balancing. Sorry that I couldn't quickly lay my hands on a pic of one with sticky magnet balancing. This one was balanced with extra washers and nuts.
HubmonsterHE with tire right side small.JPG
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flippy wrote:
Jan 19, 2018 2:28 am
and how you you overcome the cogging force of the magnets during a balancing? do you rip all the magnets out?
Since you need to balance it all the way up to max no load speed, you use electricity and a controller to overcome the cogging force. Here's a clip of one of mine spinning up to 193kph. I obviously wouldn't do that inside like that without perfect balance, and once you put a tire on they're always significantly out of balance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM6DAnoa8pE

flippy wrote:
Jan 19, 2018 2:28 am
not trying to be dumb but i just dont see anyone doing anything proper exept making a bunch of guesses and keep slapping on random weights at random locations until it shakes less.
Only the first weight placement position is random. Since there are 2 variables (position and amount of weight) I add a little intuition to a binary search. It's a lot quicker and easier than it would seem.

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Re: Mid drive vs Hub Motor for 10000 watt project

Post by icherouveim » Jan 21, 2018 1:33 am

johnnyz wrote:
Jan 16, 2018 10:05 pm
icherouveim wrote:
Jan 01, 2018 3:17 pm
Hello,

There is something else you should consider. My first battery pack I had 3 years ago it was made by 18650B panasonic cells. They were very weak, the battery pack was sagging alot. Just to give you an example when the battery pack was fully charged each cell was sagging at 3.3V!! while I was drawing only 4amps per cell and you draw almost 9! This battery pack is going to die very soon.

So firstly you need a new stronger battery pack and if you still have the same low top speed then you can change controller and or modify-replace your motor.
Thought I should reply to this...ifwhat you say is true about the sag at only 4amps per cell, then without a doubt you have WAY too HIGH RESISTANCE somewhere..and probably in the pack itself if it was assembled using crappy nickle strip especially on the series connections...that is causing the cells to sag...if not the pack then somewhere you got a bottleneck.....
Hello,

The pack was well made and it was working fine for the first year, after that it started to sag like crazy. When I wrote about this at the forum they told me (Alex and some other guys) that 18650B cells are made for low power devices laptops etc and should not be used for ebike use because they die very quickly. You know I was really disappointed with Panasonic because I didn't abuse the cells my controller was 25A and this is was a 6P pack, this is about 4.2A per cell while the max current for these cells according the specs is 6.7A. On the other hand Panasonic PF cells as they say are very good value for ebike batteries. I haven't tried them yet.

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Re: Mid drive vs Hub Motor for 10000 watt project

Post by johnnyz » Jan 21, 2018 8:52 am

icherouveim wrote:
Jan 21, 2018 1:33 am
johnnyz wrote:
Jan 16, 2018 10:05 pm
icherouveim wrote:
Jan 01, 2018 3:17 pm
Hello,

There is something else you should consider. My first battery pack I had 3 years ago it was made by 18650B panasonic cells. They were very weak, the battery pack was sagging alot. Just to give you an example when the battery pack was fully charged each cell was sagging at 3.3V!! while I was drawing only 4amps per cell and you draw almost 9! This battery pack is going to die very soon.

So firstly you need a new stronger battery pack and if you still have the same low top speed then you can change controller and or modify-replace your motor.
Thought I should reply to this...ifwhat you say is true about the sag at only 4amps per cell, then without a doubt you have WAY too HIGH RESISTANCE somewhere..and probably in the pack itself if it was assembled using crappy nickle strip especially on the series connections...that is causing the cells to sag...if not the pack then somewhere you got a bottleneck.....
Hello,

The pack was well made and it was working fine for the first year, after that it started to sag like crazy. When I wrote about this at the forum they told me (Alex and some other guys) that 18650B cells are made for low power devices laptops etc and should not be used for ebike use because they die very quickly. You know I was really disappointed with Panasonic because I didn't abuse the cells my controller was 25A and this is was a 6P pack, this is about 4.2A per cell while the max current for these cells according the specs is 6.7A. On the other hand Panasonic PF cells as they say are very good value for ebike batteries. I haven't tried them yet.
Hi there

I am still using this pack (24s8p) and still could continue to use it, and after 320 cycles, I removed 2 batteries and tested them using my Imax charger. One had 95% capacity left and the other 93%. The pack does not sag any more than it did when I made it. Consider this; I am constantly pulling 65 amps max (from a start) and so have been ABUSING this pack for 2 years. I also made the pack initially spotwelding thin nickle strips and found I had HUGE resistance and in fact they turned blue at all the series connections (I have a post showing this,as I didnt really know what I was doing)..and so these cells suffered this situation before I ripped it all off and soldered 10 gauge solid copper wire with a Tesla style connections and reduced my resistance from .540 mohm to .150 mohm using the CA. I think the result is nothing short of amazing. I have since made packs from Panasonic PF cells and they show slightly less resistance and with a 24s10p configuration will be well under a 65-70 amp maximum draw.Mostly however, I did not discharge the pack fully and would usually charge around 3.5-3.6 volts..I did charge to about 4.15 volts. Unlike getting knowledge from second and third hand accounts, I actually try to experience it first hand. With this project I am making a Tesla style 24s14p pack and will document this and this project with the new QSmotors V3 6000 watt hub motor. I will be using the Samsung INR18650-25R 2500mAh cells as they are actually less money and are true 20 amp cell. Clearly, pulling 100 amps for this pack would equate to only .35 C, which is nothing...in fact it would happily supply 280 amps continuous..that is IF you have NO resistance bottlenecks along the way!...The wire leading to and from the breaker (which now has to be upgraded to a 100 amp at least) for example..its 10 g now but will double this up effectively making it 5 gauge.

John

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Re: Mid drive vs Hub Motor for 10000 watt project

Post by Buk___ » Jan 21, 2018 10:03 am

johnnyz wrote:
Jan 21, 2018 8:52 am
... soldered 10 gauge solid copper wire with a Tesla style connections ...
What gauge/type of wire did you use for your fusible links?

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Re: Mid drive vs Hub Motor for 10000 watt project

Post by johnnyz » Jan 21, 2018 11:24 am

Buk___ wrote:
Jan 21, 2018 10:03 am
johnnyz wrote:
Jan 21, 2018 8:52 am
... soldered 10 gauge solid copper wire with a Tesla style connections ...
What gauge/type of wire did you use for your fusible links?
I took 14 G copper stranded wire and separated it in 3 parts and used that for each Parallel connection so probably 28-30 gauge each..tested this on an 80 amp draw using a 20s 10p battery and all good..no real current draw on the parallel connections...just the series connections..and FAR FAR superior to ANY nickle strip welded pack obviously. Also proved the regurgitated notion that soldering on the ends of these cells will somehow hurt them...soldering with a proper soldering gun only takes a second, and my old pack was soldered many times trying to fix it..and like I said after over 300 cycles only aprox 5-8 % degradation of capacity.
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Re: Mid drive vs Hub Motor for 10000 watt project

Post by johnnyz » Jan 22, 2018 4:40 pm

So I paid for this motor for this EMMO ZONE project...

QS 6000W 45H V3 16*3.0inch 273 E- Scooter Hub Motor
1 $479.00 $479.00
Volt & Speed: 72V 55*3T, 72V960RPM
Temp Sensor:KTY83/122
Drop-outs:200mm
Axle Flats:10mm
Phase Wire: 16mm² Brake: Disc brake, PCD3*80mm-M8, CB 58mm
Shaft: Double Shaft
Hall: Two Hall, waterproof, IP54
Efficiency: About 89%
Color: Black
Customzied: No
Logo: With“QSMOTOR”logo Package size: 58*58*40cm
Application: e-motorcycle
HTB14PRYSVXXXXXLXXXXq6xXFXXXJ.jpg
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Question...its a 55x4T motor...I need a min of 75 KPH at max of 80 amps @about 88-90 volts . The bike weighs 240 lbs and about 400 lbs with me on it. The controller was supplied to me for this project by the guys at Junior's Ebikes in St.Thomas Ontario. Its a Yuyang King Controller 24 Fet, bluetooth. No specs but I think its limited to 80 amps..
2018-01-23_4-41-41.jpg
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Will I get this out of this combo?

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Re: Mid drive vs Hub Motor for 10000 watt project

Post by x.l.r.8 » Jan 23, 2018 6:23 am

That controller looks suspiciously like the daymak em1. i would go for a recognized controller rather than one of these. That just my personal opinion though
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Re: Mid drive vs Hub Motor for 10000 watt project

Post by Buk___ » Jan 23, 2018 7:51 am

x.l.r.8 wrote:
Jan 23, 2018 6:23 am
That controller looks suspiciously like the daymak em1. i would go for a recognized controller rather than one of these. That just my personal opinion though
What is the betting that Daymak buy their controllers from YuYang King?

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Re: Mid drive vs Hub Motor for 10000 watt project

Post by johnnyz » Jan 23, 2018 9:45 am

Buk___ wrote:
Jan 23, 2018 7:51 am
x.l.r.8 wrote:
Jan 23, 2018 6:23 am
That controller looks suspiciously like the daymak em1. i would go for a recognized controller rather than one of these. That just my personal opinion though
What is the betting that Daymak buy their controllers from YuYang King?
Oh boy....I got a bad feeling about this controller..I have asked Damon about it..might have to go with this....

http://www.cnqsmotor.com/en/article_rea ... r/332.html
HTB1OEJBJXXXXXanaXXXq6xXFXXXM.jpg
I would have tested this Yuyang King controller but I am in Ontario Canada, and there is snowwww....

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Re: Mid drive vs Hub Motor for 10000 watt project

Post by johnnyz » Jan 24, 2018 4:39 pm

After talking to Damon at Qsmotors, he is recommending Qsmotor's version of this Kelly Controller....
KLSH.jpg
KLSH.jpg (48.61 KiB) Viewed 257 times
Problem is that,while the specs are good ,it needs a pre-charge resistor...Since im running with a 100 volt pack, any suggestions?

John

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Re: Mid drive vs Hub Motor for 10000 watt project

Post by e-beach » Jan 25, 2018 11:36 am

How about a light bulb?.... :shock:

Favorite Quote: "This is L.A., sugar. There is no 'over the top." --- Chris Erskine

Current build: Liahona w/ cheap front suspension and suspension seat post. Yescomusa 36v 800w generic front hub motor. 15ah Headway triangle mounted pack. Tronsung 30 amp,

Previous Build:1992 Trek Antelope 800 - Bone Crusher (no suspension) - Yescomusa 800 watt 36 volt front wheel kit. Don't do it! Get suspension!!!

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Re: Mid drive vs Hub Motor for 10000 watt project

Post by flippy » Jan 26, 2018 4:43 am

johnnyz wrote:
Jan 24, 2018 4:39 pm
After talking to Damon at Qsmotors, he is recommending Qsmotor's version of this Kelly Controller....
KLSH.jpg

Problem is that,while the specs are good ,it needs a pre-charge resistor...Since im running with a 100 volt pack, any suggestions?

John
precharge resistor is supplied with the controller. you an hook up the contactor directly to the controller as long as the contactor is <2A.

if you want i have a sevcon gen4 300A wich i am not going to use and is for sale. it is insanely programable and has field weakening if you want to use that for more top speed beyond the battery pack voltage. the kelly does not have that. programming does require a fairly expensive cable ($100~300) but you need that anyway if you want a sevcon. they are superior to the kelly in terms of capabillity and tweaking you can do.

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Re: Mid drive vs Hub Motor for 10000 watt project

Post by johnnyz » Jan 26, 2018 8:57 am

flippy wrote:
Jan 26, 2018 4:43 am
johnnyz wrote:
Jan 24, 2018 4:39 pm
After talking to Damon at Qsmotors, he is recommending Qsmotor's version of this Kelly Controller....
KLSH.jpg

Problem is that,while the specs are good ,it needs a pre-charge resistor...Since im running with a 100 volt pack, any suggestions?

John
precharge resistor is supplied with the controller. you an hook up the contactor directly to the controller as long as the contactor is <2A.

if you want i have a sevcon gen4 300A wich i am not going to use and is for sale. it is insanely programable and has field weakening if you want to use that for more top speed beyond the battery pack voltage. the kelly does not have that. programming does require a fairly expensive cable ($100~300) but you need that anyway if you want a sevcon. they are superior to the kelly in terms of capabillity and tweaking you can do.
Hey thanks for the reply...at $500 for the motor and $300 for the controller plus 388 Samsung 25R cells for my new pack x $4.20 Canadian=$1600.00 and none of this includes tax or shipping..well.., I am getting over budget on this project..Damon sent some software and analysis on the new motor and based on my battery and controller without field weakening, he says top speed at least 75 kph and more probably 90-100kph.

Damon is including a contactor with the controller and so Ill figure out the pre-charge resistor, and hook it all up...I am going to start a new thread with this project including the battery build.
400A12VMainContactor.jpg
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Precharge3.jpg
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Re: Mid drive vs Hub Motor for 10000 watt project

Post by flippy » Jan 26, 2018 9:35 am

i would recommend using a 10K 1W resistor.

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