A123 Cell and Packs

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cell_man
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A123 Cell and Packs

Post by cell_man » Jul 08, 2010 6:38 am

I've now secured a new reliable source for A123 26650 cells. Every cell will be tested for both capacity (grouped to within 25mAh initially, and charged to approximately 50% SOC) and internal resistance. Packs will be matched as required. The good news is that the cells are performing very well with internal resistance within spec, so they should have all the power you'll ever need and accept high speed charging, yet still have great life cycle performance. The cells are all new and pristine. I will not be changing anything on the cells or making false claims. They are what they are and I feel that all things considered they stack up very well when compared with other options out there at present. Cell capacity on the small number of cells checked so far ranges between 2200Ah to over 2300Ah. In order to secure the right to buy the cells I have to promise that I will not sell bare cells. I have some ideas how this can still work for those that prefer a more DIY approach and will post up details shortly.

Still working on pack building and will likely use a professional pack building facility until I have the all the necessary in house equipment to do full assembly. So if anyone has a requirement for just a small pack for personal use or for businesses, with bigger orders, please drop me a PM on here or email to
emission-free_worldwide(at)hotmail.com so we can discuss and I'm sure I can offer a very competitive price whilst doing things properly. I know what is available and I am confident that I can deliver a good product which as good or better than what is currently available with an an honest, straight up service. I've been selling products on ES for some time now and it only takes a quick search to see that I have lots of happy customers, well at least no particularly unhappy customers anyway :)
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Initially I will be setting the base price at 5.75USD for small orders or samples with a basic spot welded termination. There will be room for maneuver on bigger orders.
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Re: A123 Cell and Packs

Post by cell_man » Aug 04, 2010 9:59 am

Ok I have a stock of tested A123 26650 cells now. They are all grouped into 25mAh capacity range and I can also ensure there is minimal internal resistance variation. I'm still having some problems getting the spot welder arrangements as unfortunately I like to do things properly :cry: A123 26650 cells are a very high power cell and to do them justice you need to use thick, pure nickel to terminate them. A123 use 0.25mm in the Dewalt packs and I want to use at least that size or maybe a little bigger. Unfortunately you need a high power and high quality machine to produce good reliable welds with such thick material and the tabs need to be properly prepared. Maybe I should do what most of the others suppliers of these cells do and use thinner and easier to weld nickel strips which can be welded with a 500$ welder, instead of the 10-15,000$ welder I'll likely be getting. Pure nickel (Ni201) is about 40USD per kg as well...

If anybody needs some cells and they can do there own termination I can offer a reduced price from the 5.75USD per cell previously mentioned on small quantities. I've done quite a bit of soldering with these cells and can tin them if that helps and supply some copper sheet, or maybe some plated copper sheet for the terminations.

Bear in mind these are all tested, grouped together and they are not a few years old. I'm still working on the terminations and will put some more info up when I have something to offer.
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Re: A123 Cell and Packs

Post by The Mighty Volt » Aug 04, 2010 12:09 pm

PM Sent.

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Re: A123 Cell and Packs

Post by katou » Aug 04, 2010 9:56 pm

Dude, that is some fancy cell tester you have there! What does it do? (capabilities I mean)

I'm watching what happens with your cells, I have a few for myself, and it's good market research.

Have you considered sending a few out as samples to people to do third-party testing? I think that might help.

I also have considered running the highest discharge test I can to PROVE the C rate, but I have not done that yet.

I am just learning about this stuff, but if I understand properly, your testing of resistance gives the same information ie. a predictor of max discharge rate

Katou

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Re: A123 Cell and Packs

Post by cell_man » Aug 05, 2010 6:09 am

Hi Katou,

the test unit is just a Capacity tester and I am just paying for a 3rd party to test the cells for me and group them. It will charge and discharge cells at preset levels and then automatically group them and generate data files etc. Normally they group them into 50mAh groups, I requested they be grouped into 25mAh, just because I like to make life difficult for myself.... :) There is a lot of expensive equipment required, so I'll postpone buying everything I need just yet until I get a few sold.

I did buy an internal resistance meter to check cell internal resistance. They are very consistent and they are typically in the region of 7mohm (1kHz impedance), but I think the meter might be over reading a little, so they could be a bit lower than that. Anyways, you can't beat a heavy load to see what a cell can really do and I have lots of power resistors here. I have some single power resistors here that pull 70A plus from a single cell (about 2.5V under load), others that pull about 25A from a single cell (ITRO 3.0V). I can easily monitor the tab voltage and discharge current and i can assure you they deliver. It's not recommended but I've found a short section of 6mm^2 cable shorted out across a single 2.3Ah cell gives about 250A. Cells are not perfect, they give different levels of IR depending upon the nature of the load, so really the IR measured from a low load such as the AC impedance meter just gives a good indication of the relative performance, but for sure it gives a good indication of the approximate perform under extreme conditions.

In all honesty I do not recommend that you discharge a cell at 30C constant from 100% to 0% SOC, if you want them to have a long and happy life, but to be honest who actually needs that? The cells are well matched and there's no way you need to push the limits on an ebike or any EV, short of a drag or land speed record vehicle.

Cheers
Paul
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Re: A123 Cell and Packs

Post by maydaverave » Aug 17, 2010 10:23 pm

are you going to be selling these as 48v packs? If so how much would a 48v 10ah battery run?
e-bikekit 50v 9.2ah cellman pack

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Re: A123 Cell and Packs

Post by cell_man » Aug 18, 2010 3:31 am

Yes I can put together a 48V pack, or whatever layout is required for now. Assembled cells will be 5.75USD a pc for small orders. You would need either 4P for a 9.2Ah pack or 5P for a 11.5Ah pack. Series cell count either 15S for 49.5V nominal or 16S for 52.8V nominal. A 16S 4P 52.8V, 9.2Ah pack would be 64 cells, so 368USD plus BMS, connectors, shipping etc. I had based my basic 5.75USD on a basic termination and so there may be some additional fees depending upon additional items and time spent, but it will be very reasonable. Once I get some standard products established I may not be so flexible with offering custom builds.
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Re: A123 Cell and Packs

Post by The Mighty Volt » Aug 18, 2010 7:37 am

Just out of curiosity, why don't they say A123 on the sticker/wrapper? They say A123 on the aluminium case alright, which is the important bit.

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Re: A123 Cell and Packs

Post by cell_man » Aug 18, 2010 9:17 am

That's what is available. I don't dress them up like most others do. I'm sure you will be very happy with the performance, just hope those you had already sourced work as well :)

You've got a few choices when it comes to buying A123 26650s, buy some old questionable stock from some unknown Ebay store and get 3 year old cells, that is what you will almost certainly get if the cells are any cheaper than my prices. I've tried cells like this, they work ok, but the self discharge was really bad and the capacity was all over the place. I've been told a lot of cells that were supposed to go to the recycling plant some time ago, never made it there. Buy good cells like I sell, some put a 2nd layer of shrink wrap on them, which generally sell for just a little more than my prices, they are the same cells from the same source. Buy from A123 Racing or Enerland for about 15USD a cell.... Buy some Dewalt packs and harvest the cells. As far as I have seen the Dewalt packs that were sold cheap, had cells that were generally about 3 years old. Not suggesting they are bad, but I think the fact that they were 3 years old had something to do with why a lot of these packs were going for good prices.

I go to the expense of testing my cells, they are legit, from a good source and I'll soon be offering assembled packs when I get my head around the spot welder that just arrived today. I don't believe you can get good A123 cells for less than what I am selling them for. I've already supplied significant quantities of the A123 Pouch cells and I'm now offering these 26650s. If I was supplying bad products, it would be common knowledge by now.
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Re: A123 Cell and Packs

Post by The Mighty Volt » Aug 18, 2010 11:03 am

cell_man wrote:That's what is available. I don't dress them up like most others do. I'm sure you will be very happy with the performance, just hope those you had already sourced work as well :)

You've got a few choices when it comes to buying A123 26650s, buy some old questionable stock from some unknown Ebay store and get 3 year old cells, that is what you will almost certainly get if the cells are any cheaper than my prices. I've tried cells like this, they work ok, but the self discharge was really bad and the capacity was all over the place. I've been told a lot of cells that were supposed to go to the recycling plant some time ago, never made it there. Buy good cells like I sell, some put a 2nd layer of shrink wrap on them, which generally sell for just a little more than my prices, they are the same cells from the same source. Buy from A123 Racing or Enerland for about 15USD a cell.... Buy some Dewalt packs and harvest the cells. As far as I have seen the Dewalt packs that were sold cheap, had cells that were generally about 3 years old. Not suggesting they are bad, but I think the fact that they were 3 years old had something to do with why a lot of these packs were going for good prices.

I go to the expense of testing my cells, they are legit, from a good source and I'll soon be offering assembled packs when I get my head around the spot welder that just arrived today. I don't believe you can get good A123 cells for less than what I am selling them for. I've already supplied significant quantities of the A123 Pouch cells and I'm now offering these 26650s. If I was supplying bad products, it would be common knowledge by now.

Oh, hey, you have you my confidence, otherwise I would never have parted with my hard earned. Your postage was also top-notch, Lyen-esque!!! I am just seeing a lot of A123 these days, and no two batteries look alike. The ones I have bought from members of this board have all charged and discharged really fast. The best thing is that this board is made up of enthusiasts and not just salesmen per se. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend your stuff. :!: :D

I know you had a thread on terminating the pouch cells......I remember that now, seemed like a lot of effort!!

Cheers.


TK.

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Re: A123 Cell and Packs

Post by cell_man » Aug 18, 2010 1:00 pm

The Mighty Volt wrote: Oh, hey, you have you my confidence, otherwise I would never have parted with my hard earned. Your postage was also top-notch, Lyen-esque!!! I am just seeing a lot of A123 these days, and no two batteries look alike. The ones I have bought from members of this board have all charged and discharged really fast. The best thing is that this board is made up of enthusiasts and not just salesmen per se. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend your stuff. :!: :D

I know you had a thread on terminating the pouch cells......I remember that now, seemed like a lot of effort!!

Cheers.


TK.
Like I said there are a few suppliers in china that get the same cells I do. Most will put another layer of shrink wrap on them. These are good cells and preferred to some of the older stuff that is going around IMO. I wouldn't have spent big $$s buying cells, getting them tested and buying expensive equipment to terminate them if I wasn't confident in their quality and bad news spreads quicker than good, so it wouldn't be in my best interests to sell 2nd rate parts.

Yeah the pouch cells were a bit tricky to come up with a mechanical termination method I was happy with. Just time consuming more than anything. If I can get more I might tackle the terminations a little differently to reduce the work required. I've just received my spot welder for the 26650s now, just need to buy a compressor and start working on some terminations. The thicker nickel sheet that is required for high current does make it difficult though. Why do I always make my life so bloody difficult... :)
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Re: A123 Cell and Packs

Post by cassschr1 » Aug 18, 2010 7:56 pm

Because there's nothing like perfection!

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Re: A123 Cell and Packs

Post by Yuri » Aug 18, 2010 8:55 pm

I've sent you an e-mail to the hotmail address but it got returned as non delivered, now I e-mailed you at the another e-mail it's in your website.

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Re: A123 Cell and Packs

Post by cell_man » Aug 18, 2010 9:25 pm

cassschr1 wrote:Because there's nothing like perfection!
Well I don't know about perfection but we can try :)

quote="Yuri"]I've sent you an e-mail to the hotmail address but it got returned as non delivered, now I e-mailed you at the another e-mail it's in your website.[/quote]

Yuri, that's a little strange, I've sent you a PM. Are you based in Norway? I did receive a message regarding some cell for shipment to Norway.
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Re: A123 Cell and Packs

Post by Dynamic » Aug 23, 2010 10:51 pm

Hi cell_man, I'm really thinking about buying theses cells (I really wanted your other cells (A123 20Ah pouch cell) but they were just way above my budget at the time)
Just a question before i send you an email, I have the 48v 8amp Nicad pack that E-bikes.ca sells, I have a 9c 2805 motor on a 30amp controller and the batteries sag on take off (start at 53v charged, but when i accelerate, it drops to roughly 44v, then when i back off the throttle, it goes back up to 52v/53v.
I know your a trusted person on here (ES) My question is, do you think these cells will do the same thing ?
Or can i get a good steady voltage on take off with these ?

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Re: A123 Cell and Packs

Post by cell_man » Aug 24, 2010 2:50 am

I can assure you. You will not see that sort of sag on a Pack built with A123 cells. How many parallel cells were you thinking of running? I've just now made up a 12S 1P pack to be used with a 15A controller and the new 1.9kg Bafang motor. After discharging the pack to about 50% SOC I saw a minimum voltage of just under 37V with a current of just over 15A. Remember that is also going through a BMS (and a small BMS at that, so likely some voltage drop), various connectors and it is all terminated, so it's not an ideal situation and I'm pulling 15A per cell. A 16S 4P pack will maintain about 50-51V minimum even under max load until it has been discharged quite deeply.

Thanks
Paul
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Re: A123 Cell and Packs

Post by Dynamic » Aug 24, 2010 10:36 pm

cell_man wrote:I can assure you. You will not see that sort of sag on a Pack built with A123 cells. How many parallel cells were you thinking of running?

Thanks
Paul
Well that is nice to here, i'm tired of SLA's and mixing SLA's with nicads etc. etc. I would like to finally get a nice pack (that i can afford) for my bike. I can not pass this deal that your offering.

I am thinking of getting enough cells from you to build 2 separate packs that will add up to 49.5 volts,
1 pack would be 7s6p and the other pack would be 8s6p which in series equals to 49.5v, this way i can use the 2 Turnigy Accucel-8 150W 7A Balancer/Chargers (that hobby king sells) to charge and balance both packs separately (with no BMS)

I have transfered money to my paypal account, ounce its there (6 to 8 days) i will email you with my order, hopefully, by then, you'll have the tabs on these sells figured out. (which i'm guessing that's what you mean by termination)
Thanks.

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Re: A123 Cell and Packs

Post by cell_man » Aug 24, 2010 11:06 pm

Hi,

I'm actually going away next Tuesday for about 2 weeks. I don't think I'll have the Nickel for the terminations in time to get everything done for you. I'm going to have these cells in the future. I have a steady supply so there is no need to worry on that front. If you can wait till I get back I'll get everything put together for you as required. I wouldn't want to rush something out that I am not 100% happy with.

I would be tempted to stick to 2 * 8S packs, rather than having odd packs. The extra voltage will give you a little extra speed as well, which is always nice. I use an Icharger 208B to charge the pack I've been using on my bike, so your plan should be just fine. You could also bulk charge them without a BMS if you take precautions. I also have the components required to interface multiple Cell Log 8s to the controller. I could let you have the parts to DIY them yourself, so you would have a LVC to prevent over discharge. The same circuit can also act as a HVC when bulk charging. These cells can be charged in 15 min if you have a charger man enough. Charged in parallel, a 28.8V 120A PSU should do it :)

A pack like this would easily run 6 or 7KW without even pushing it hard. If you weren't going far a 2P pack would still provide ample current. You really will not believe the lack of voltage sag on the sort of power levels you are planning. Drop me a PM, we can go through your options for the pack configuration.

Thanks
Paul
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Re: A123 Cell and Packs

Post by Dynamic » Aug 25, 2010 11:35 pm

cell_man wrote:Hi,
I would be tempted to stick to 2 * 8S packs, rather than having odd packs. The extra voltage will give you a little extra speed as well, which is always nice.
I would love to do that, the reason i wanted to go with the odd packs is because i was afraid of it ruining my controller, 2-8s would give me 52.8v, but fully charged, it might go over my controller limit, and blow it. (i have no idea if it will, i just can't afford the chance right now)
cell_man wrote: A pack like this would easily run 6 or 7KW without even pushing it hard. If you weren't going far a 2P pack would still provide ample current. You really will not believe the lack of voltage sag on the sort of power levels you are planning. Drop me a PM, we can go through your options for the pack configuration.
I really want these batteries, and I will drop you a pm, But i cannot have you build the packs for me (i need to build it myself in order for it to fit in my Fake motor (Pic Below)

Image
http://altecart.com/surplus/images/large/longbow.jpg
I will contact you as soon as my money is in paypal.
Thanks Paul
Last edited by Dynamic on Sep 07, 2010 11:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: A123 Cell and Packs

Post by cell_man » Aug 26, 2010 5:56 am

I don't know how many cells you can fit inside the available space. It's not so easy to terminate the cells, it would be easier for you if I did it for you. The cell dimensions are 26mm diameter, 65mm long. You might need to allow a little extra for terminations but it is minimal. Best to sketch out the exact space you have available and check what you can fit in there.

BTW I should be able to terminate the cells before I leave next Tuesday if you are ready, even if you get a deposit ASAP, I can get it built and it can be forwarded once payment is cleared. However, if it's a bit more involved than a straight forward pack, it's better to wait until I return. After some testing I am happy to say that I have a termination method using copper sheet rather than Nickel. This has much lower losses than Nickel but it can be difficult to implement. It requires a high powered spot welder, but I'm happy to say that the results are very good.

If it's a 48V controller it should have a 63V Caps and at least 60V Fets, more likely 75V. I am certain that you will not have a problem running 16S A123 on a 48V Controller.
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Re: A123 Cell and Packs

Post by Dynamic » Aug 26, 2010 11:39 pm

cell_man wrote: BTW I should be able to terminate the cells before I leave next Tuesday if you are ready, even if you get a deposit ASAP, I can get it built and it can be forwarded once payment is cleared. However, if it's a bit more involved than a straight forward pack, it's better to wait until I return.
:D :lol: I think I will wait till you come back, I have right now $10.01 in my paypal account (that's not much of a down payment :lol: )
As i said earlier. I do want these sells. i just need to wait for my money to transfer, so i will have to wait for you to get back. ( and i will wait,as long as you put tabs on them, to make it easy for me to make my own packs)
cell_man wrote:If it's a 48V controller it should have a 63V Caps and at least 60V Fets, more likely 75V. I am certain that you will not have a problem running 16S A123 on a 48V Controller.
It's an e-crazyman controller, so hopefully your right, i think i'll go with the 2- 8s.

Anyway, like i said, i'll pm you when my money is in paypal, and if your still away, i'll wait till you get back and reply.

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Re: A123 Cell and Packs

Post by cell_man » Aug 27, 2010 2:46 am

No worries. There is no point rushing these things. I've got a stack of things to fix before i go away, so best to wait until I'm back.
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Re: A123 Cell and Packs

Post by suzuki111 » Nov 18, 2010 5:46 am

hi
im building a new bike and i have decided to use a 1200w motor 48V could be up to 60amp current draw and about 15ah. I would like to fit the batterries inside a aluminium tube dimensions approx 165mm deep by 85mm wide by 400mm long. Can you suggest if you can help me or not and if so what cost delivered to australia ?

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Re: A123 Cell and Packs

Post by cell_man » Nov 23, 2010 6:27 pm

suzuki111 wrote:hi
im building a new bike and i have decided to use a 1200w motor 48V could be up to 60amp current draw and about 15ah. I would like to fit the batterries inside a aluminium tube dimensions approx 165mm deep by 85mm wide by 400mm long. Can you suggest if you can help me or not and if so what cost delivered to australia ?
I do have a spot welding machine, so drop me a line and I'll see what I can do.
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Re: A123 Cell and Packs

Post by gblast123 » Dec 04, 2010 10:45 pm

How much for a 16s5p pack with a BMS that will put out about 60 amp. max?

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