Crystalyte Motors,NEW APM's all in stock !

[methods]

there is no reason whatsoever to go with sensored unless of course you don't want to change controllers and use a regular sensored controller with the 5 hall effects wires,,,

The benefit of buying a sensored motor is that it is compatible with any sensored/sensorless BLDC controller on the market - new or used. I think that you will also find that as power goes up (think 100V 100A) the somewhat small jerks and shakes you feel now sensorless will be greatly amplified. That said - if someone is in the market now looking for a great price for a simple and reliable setup there is something to say about going sensorless.... less wires, no chance of halls blowing, easy to configure and change motor direction.... All good things for someone new to ebikes

I still think that if given the option to manufacture the motors with sensors you should ALWAYS do it - BUT... that does not mean that motors without sensors are not a good buy for the right application. Of course - one could always install sensors down the road if one wanted to.

(disclaimer - I sell and promote sensored motors so I am biased..... and we are in Maxes sales thread so I am playing nice.... )

-methods

[liveforphysics]

Sensorless = worthless IMHO.


It can only guess rotor position by sniffing the BEMF with the comparator board. No wheel motion, no BEMF, and only guessing at rotor position and hoping it gets motion.

For a high power setup, this just fails all over the place.

If you get a flux vectoring controller, THEN and only then does it make any sense to be sensorless.

[oatnet]

hi all,,,

ok here it is from the horses mouth,,,i finally mounted a HS sensor-less motor and a clyte 48v45amp controller,,,and it runs smooth as silk and is fast as well and to top it all off, good torque,,,, as far as im concerned there is no reason whatsoever to go with sensored unless of course you don't want to change controllers and use a regular sensored controller with the 5 hall effects wires,,,,but for those on the fence you will not be sorry with the sensor-less set-up,,,im really impressed with how smooth the starts are,,,,unable to tell a difference between sensored and sensorless,,,any one care to comment?

Since you ask, Yes.

On an HS/HT motor WITH the hall sensors installed, you can use ANY sensored controller. OR you can use the xlyte sensorless controller you just tested (simply leave the halls disconnected) and it will behave EXACTLY like the sensorless motor you just tested.

On a motor WITHOUT hall sensors, you can ONLY use xlyte's sensorless controller, or Lyen's. Therefor, the sensorless motor has less functionality because you can't use 99% of the controllers out there, and sensorless provides less performance/efficiency. The only upgrade path is to fix the motor by installing the sensors the factory left off. If you don't want to upgrade to get more performance later, and you just want a 72v40a commuter (as I like to build) it makes more sense to buy a lighter, cheaper 9c that will give you pretty much the same speed and torque. The whole point of going with the heavier xlyte is because it can stand up to more abuse - that only a non-xlyte SENSORED controller can supply.

It sucks that Kenny of xlyte resorted to this trick, in order to recapture the overpriced market share he lost when significantly cheaper competitors showed up. That is why I am BOYCOTTING xlyte these days - I bought (3) 8x8 9c from methods, but didn't buy in on methods' ultra-cheap sale for the new xlyte's even though they were sensored. It is worse that xlyte stuck folks like you, who brought cheap xlyte to E:S in the past but didn't understand the implications of sensorless, with reduced-functionality motors. However, I also hate for newbies who don't know any better to get stuck with them too, and maybe get turned off to the hobby.

-JD

[slayer]

Me i don t buy that you are limited because you have a sensorless and you know less because you want one ...i have one sensorless hs3540 with Lyen controller (kellycontroller have some too http://kellycontroller.com/72v-sensorle ... 64_67.html)

before that i had a 5304 (still have it ) and that was 6 years ago i did not use the option of buying all the controllers that exists ...my original crystalyte controller still works so if i change my new sensorless in 6 years i will be happy with my choice even if sensorless are off the map because you guys want to boycott. (i don t beleive it for a minute but just for saying)

[deVries]

If you get a flux vectoring controller, THEN and only then does it make any sense to be sensorless.

Are these available now (or soon will be) for most ebike level applications? Motor limitations? Cost? Sourcing?

I think Maxwell could probably offer some motors with halls too? Of course, not everyone will demand the higher performance of a sensored motor if the sensorless has some simplicity enhancements such as lower failure rates vs sensored & less repair issues. In other words "failure prevention" by not having halls & wiring to fail in the first place.

Perhaps sensorless has a lot of room for future improvements too to somehow smooth out the jerky & start-up issues in future upgrades too? Are these sensorless controllers upgradeable?

But! Maxwell says this already about this sensorless controller: i finally mounted a HS sensor-less motor and a clyte 48v45amp controller,,,and it runs smooth as silk and is fast as well (its raining today so in a few days i will post my top speed,,,,but it seems to be faster than my 5303 and this controller is 45amps where as my other controller was 35amps,,,so I'm sure the 10 amps is giving me the extra speed im sensing... i have heard reports that even at the same amps the new HS is faster) and to top it all off, good torque,,,, as far as I'm concerned there is no reason whatsoever to go with sensored unless of course you don't want to change controllers and use a regular sensored controller with the 5 hall effects wires,,,,but for those on the fence you will not be sorry with the sensor-less set-up,,,im really impressed with how smooth the starts are,,,,unable to tell a difference between sensored and sensorless

Here are some valid or "funny" reasons to go sensorless that Lyen uses to promote his controller:

(I realize 3 & 7 don't apply to xlyte.)

1. You want to make more space in the motor axle for for thicker phase wires
2. You hate hall wires
3. You have a RC motor (Turnigy & Astro in this case)
4. You want to try something different
5. You think sensorless is cool
6. You are unable to figure out how to wire the sensor wires to the controller with the correct sequence
7. You want to have a backup controller just in case
8. You think sensorless is more reliable since no hall sensors and/or wires can get damaged easily by heat & water

[methods]

This is the meat and potatoes of it.... (see quote below) though I am continuing to do business with xlyte myself since Kenny tends to be more reliable than all of the other guys I have dealt with. He can be tricky... but he wont down right screw you. If I were a consumer it might be different - but as a small time re-seller I could tell you true horror stories of dealing with 9C and others.... who will hang you out to dry.

Sorry for discussion in your sales thread Max but you did clearly ask for comment and open the debate.

-methods

It sucks that Kenny of xlyte resorted to this trick, in order to recapture the overpriced market share he lost when significantly cheaper competitors showed up. That is why I am BOYCOTTING xlyte these days - I bought (3) 8x8 9c from methods, but didn't buy in on methods' ultra-cheap sale for the new xlyte's even though they were sensored. It is worse that xlyte stuck folks like you, who brought cheap xlyte to E:S in the past but didn't understand the implications of sensorless, with reduced-functionality motors. However, I also hate for newbies who don't know any better to get stuck with them too, and maybe get turned off to the hobby.

-JD

[slayer]

If you get a flux vectoring controller, THEN and only then does it make any sense to be sensorless.

Luke you never worked for public ...you would be surprised how they choose sometimes ...only to not have the little occasional jerk sometimes on a slight uphill ...well gess what we are not all talking about a drag racing ...we have legs to give a little push when needed. And with the power it provides you don t need it for long ...mine delivers 2500 watts at 48 volts with lyen unmodified that is more than enough for the rest of us .. no offence but we let you be ...let us be too

[wojtek]

On a motor WITHOUT hall sensors, you can ONLY use xlyte's sensorless controller, or Lyen's. Therefor, the sensorless motor has less functionality because you can't use 99% of the controllers out there
-JD

hmm.. i guess it might just be wording. What you mean is compatibility not functionality - two different things. When you say functionality, it makes no sense.

I have not tested the sensorless yet [waiting for ages to get them from Crystalyte Europe] but i ordered one crystalyte and one Lyen for my projects [to compare]

[Spacey]

Are you STILL waiting for xlyte europe to get their crap together and send you your motor...surely not?

I would be interested in the difference between Lyens Sensorless and Xlyte Sensorless.

I for one like sensorless as I have had a few problems in rainy UK with my 9C's messing up with Halls.

[wojtek]

LOL
i am !
and the lyen extra controller i ordered with all extras, probably got lost on the way. It was shipped a month ago and there is no trace of it in luxembourg.

So f***** annoying! i started my projects way before Doc discovered KMX trikes, he is now breaking speed records and i am f***** waiting.

if there was an icon with (frock all) , i would use it now.

Are you STILL waiting for xlyte europe to get their crap together and send you your motor...surely not?

I would be interested in the difference between Lyens Sensorless and Xlyte Sensorless.

I for one like sensorless as I have had a few problems in rainy UK with my 9C's messing up with Halls.

[neptronix]

The way i see it is:

sensored motor has less magnet, so that sucks. It's also hard to come by it seems. Both of these factors make it less appealing.

sensorless motor works with the lyen controllers but has issues like jerkiness at certain speeds. Your other option is the mystery brick crystalyte controller with no programming options and diddly squat for mods/documentation. Not appealing to me.

I'm gonna wait it out with this motor after an entire month of deliberating whether or not to pull the trigger on a buy. Maybe Lyen will come up with a better sensor-substitute circuit that works well for these.

[Arlo1]

The way i see it is:

sensored motor has less magnet, so that sucks. It's also hard to come by it seems. Both of these factors make it less appealing.

sensorless motor works with the lyen controllers but has issues like jerkiness at certain speeds. Your other option is the mystery brick crystalyte controller with no programming options and diddly squat for mods/documentation. Not appealing to me.

I'm gonna wait it out with this motor after an entire month of deliberating whether or not to pull the trigger on a buy. Maybe Lyen will come up with a better sensor-substitute circuit that works well for these.

The sensors dont take away from the magnet, They are mounted in the stator and it has no mesureable effect on how hard the flux pulls/pushes the magnets. But the gains you get by knowing where the magnets are far exceed any losses you rthink you might have. The biggest thing for me is sensor controlers have the great starting torque and less likely to pop when stressed!

[slayer]

The way i see it is:

sensored motor has less magnet, so that sucks. It's also hard to come by it seems. Both of these factors make it less appealing.

sensorless motor works with the lyen controllers but has issues like jerkiness at certain speeds. Your other option is the mystery brick crystalyte controller with no programming options and diddly squat for mods/documentation. Not appealing to me.

I'm gonna wait it out with this motor after an entire month of deliberating whether or not to pull the trigger on a buy. Maybe Lyen will come up with a better sensor-substitute circuit that works well for these.

No Lyen controllers dont have issues at all at any speeds ...

it is only from dead start if you are uphill ...and that is only needed a one eight (1\8 or a little push upwards) of a wheel turn to make it start after that you are fine all the time and that is not always happening

[neptronix]

I thought the stator on the sensored motor was 30 or 32mm and the sensorless one was 35mm?

That would be a decent stator size difference, 10% or more.

[Spacey]

The way i see it is:

sensored motor has less magnet, so that sucks. It's also hard to come by it seems. Both of these factors make it less appealing.

sensorless motor works with the lyen controllers but has issues like jerkiness at certain speeds. Your other option is the mystery brick crystalyte controller with no programming options and diddly squat for mods/documentation. Not appealing to me.

I'm gonna wait it out with this motor after an entire month of deliberating whether or not to pull the trigger on a buy. Maybe Lyen will come up with a better sensor-substitute circuit that works well for these.

No Lyen controllers dont have issues at all at any speeds ...

it is only from dead start if you are uphill ...and that is only needed a one eight (1\8 or a little push upwards) of a wheel turn to make it start after that you are fine all the time and that is not always happening

Actually mine does shudder a little bit when I hit the power hard and usually at 80% of the top speed. I have to ease off the throttle and then re apply it so it synch's back up. Totally useable though.

[neptronix]

^-- there are more than a few people who have mentioned this on the other big crystalyte HS thread if you have been watching it.

[steveo]

good work max, your still here selling the new stuff, your awsome!!!

[slayer]

if you would answer by who and what as been said i would continue ...but sorry i wont read all and i don t post everyday

[nicobie]

Max is tops. I had a problem with Clyte and he helped me out big time.

Thanks Max!

[oatnet]

On a motor WITHOUT hall sensors, you can ONLY use xlyte's sensorless controller, or Lyen's. Therefor, the sensorless motor has less functionality because you can't use 99% of the controllers out there
-JD

hmm.. i guess it might just be wording. What you mean is compatibility not functionality - two different things. When you say functionality, it makes no sense.

I see your point, but i think both words apply.

I can run a sensored HS/HT at 10kw, because I could slap my methods 100v100a controller on it.
The sensorless version would be restricted to xlyte controllers that can "only" do 72v45a. So both could function as a high-speed commuter, but only sensored could also function as a hotrod.

And if I wasn't gonna go beyond 72v45a, I would use a lighter, cheaper 9c anyhow.

I feel bad here - over the years I've seen Max sell xlyte here at an eye-popping discount over other vendors, sacrificing profit to bring equipment to E:S members and promote our Hobby. I have seen a series of satisfied customers post their thanks, and no complaints. I've seen him keep an even keel in the face of challenging posters. He is an asset to the site and the hobby and I am frustrated he got caught up in the sensorless debacle xlyte created.



-JD

[liveforphysics]

The way i see it is:

sensored motor has less magnet, so that sucks. It's also hard to come by it seems. Both of these factors make it less appealing.

sensorless motor works with the lyen controllers but has issues like jerkiness at certain speeds. Your other option is the mystery brick crystalyte controller with no programming options and diddly squat for mods/documentation. Not appealing to me.

I'm gonna wait it out with this motor after an entire month of deliberating whether or not to pull the trigger on a buy. Maybe Lyen will come up with a better sensor-substitute circuit that works well for these.

No Lyen controllers dont have issues at all at any speeds ...

it is only from dead start if you are uphill ...and that is only needed a one eight (1\8 or a little push upwards) of a wheel turn to make it start after that you are fine all the time and that is not always happening

Actually mine does shudder a little bit when I hit the power hard and usually at 80% of the top speed. I have to ease off the throttle and then re apply it so it synch's back up. Totally useable though.

It's not just that the sensorless controller can't be programmed and setup the way you want it, we CAN make it powerful by soldering the shunts and swapping FETs and beefing up traces etc, just like we did before the luxury of programmable controllers.

The problem is that it's impossible for the controller to reliably maintain rotor position to know how to sequence, and at higher power levels, a single poorly timed sequence error means failure.

That little shudder when you lose sync = exploded ball of plasma controller if you're running power levels that this motor begs to feel.

If you're not running those higher power levels, lighter cheaper motors make more sense.

Sensorless = Senseless You take a high power motor and give it low power (why get a high power motor?), or you tweak the controller to make best use of the motors capabilities, and then it explodes the instant it glitches (and sensorless glitches will always be an inevitable reality).


BTW- I also like what Maxwell does, and I applaud his super-low-margins and getting product in the hands of ES'ers for cheap. I love that. The sad part of it is just the sensorless aspect that kinda spoils the motors from ever realizing their potential, everything else rocks.

[deVries]

It's not just that the sensorless controller can't be programmed and setup the way you want it, we CAN make it powerful by soldering the shunts and swapping FETs and beefing up traces etc, just like we did before the luxury of programmable controllers.

The problem is that it's impossible for the controller to reliably maintain rotor position to know how to sequence, and at higher power levels, a single poorly timed sequence error means failure.

That little shudder when you lose sync = exploded ball of plasma controller if you're running power levels that this motor begs to feel.

If you're not running those higher power levels, lighter cheaper motors make more sense.

Would the stock sensorless controllers be reliable or not? ...bypassing the pros/cons of modding to higher power.

Sensorless = Senseless You take a high power motor and give it low power (why get a high power motor?), or you tweak the controller to make best use of the motors capabilities, and then it explodes the instant it glitches (and sensorless glitches will always be an inevitable reality).

Isn't it true that to do all these high power setups everyone had to upgrade the wiring into the motors anyway, SO the only additional modding will be adding the Hall Sensors. At that point, it looks to be another 2.5hrs of work for the experienced & maybe a day or less for a 1st timer.

Btw, Luke, can you tell us more about "flux vectoring" sensorless controllers. This does not seem to be a product purchase option right now. I think Ricky in NZ is going to use this flux vectoring technique?

Anyway to go optical like Burtie is attempting to do? Stick the optic-reader on some shaft attachment on the outside or do it inside elsewhere?

[RVD]

Ok I'm game. In the pursuit of knowledge, there are winners, losers, and those who don't try. I'll try and see where it leads me.

Ordered HS3540 + lyen sensorless. We'll see where this takes me.

[methods]

I thought the stator on the sensored motor was 30 or 32mm and the sensorless one was 35mm?

That would be a decent stator size difference, 10% or more.

That is incorrect.
The original batch of sensored motors were on a 30mm Stator (for clearance) but we worked with Kenny and now the new batches of Sensored motors are 35mm. They are identical to the sensorless motors in every way - both the magnets and the stator.

-methods

[methods]

I feel bad here - over the years I've seen Max sell xlyte here at an eye-popping discount over other vendors, sacrificing profit to bring equipment to E:S members and promote our Hobby. I have seen a series of satisfied customers post their thanks, and no complaints. I've seen him keep an even keel in the face of challenging posters. He is an asset to the site and the hobby and I am frustrated he got caught up in the sensorless debacle xlyte created.

-JD

Agreed. I hate seeing a vendor bashed in a thread. Max has gotten a lot of people into the game with low pricing. That said:

hi all,,,

..... as far as im concerned there is no reason whatsoever to go with sensored
........unable to tell a difference between sensored and sensorless......
.......any one care to comment?

First and foremost this is a technical forum where truth reins. The debate is over the statements above which were very strong - and in my opinion false. He opened it up for comment and the comments have poured in. I have no doubt that Max will be able to continue his very successful business. I feel for him - but I know exactly what it feels like to be sitting on 100 motors that might not be a lot of peoples first choice.

Kudos to Max for sitting back and letting us hash this out without getting defensive. A patient man he is.

-methods