FS: Commuter Booster Friction Drive Beta Units

[jtchoy]

No worries, it still works with a "kick-start", with the tyres up to speed before engaging the throttle. So I'm not desperate for a new ESC unless it totally dies.

Yeah, saw that programming card, looks like its never in stock like most things on HK though. Just have to spend a few minutes listening to beeps instead. Too used to USB programming my Castle Creations ESCs.

I will contact HK and see if I can claim warranty. If I have to send it back, I have 2 spare ESCs I could use. A Castle Creations ICE Lite 50A and a Hobbywing 60A Water-Cooled Boat ESC.
I'm thinking of using the CC as it has data-logging and the Hobbywing might overheat without water-cooling.
Is 50A to small? Will I blow my expensive CC ESC? The SK3 webpage lists the max amps at 65A, with gently acceleration I should be fine? Maybe I should wait till I get my watt meter and check the readings first.

Yes, you should offer a complete package. I ended up getting almost everything you recommended and a complete kit would have saved me the time of hunting for parts locally at my bike shop, hardware shop and online.

Off for a test ride with the new 40 grit sanding belt.

[adrian_sm]

The 65Amps on the SK3 ratings is what you should keep it below if you want a healthy motor, not what it will max out at. It can pull well over 50 amps so I wouldn't risk your nice CC ESC.

The drive always requires you are moving before you hit the throttle, but should be fine from about 6kph if you do go full throttle straight up.

I think I settled down on about 80 grit as my preferred roughness. It allows the peaks to get some traction through the water, but isn't so rough to wear the tire much as the tire tries to conform to the motor shell.

- Adrian

[p scott]

I second that vote for a complete package minus the batteries. It would saved some hassle. Most people on ES like to tinker and mix and match but I think it increases the level of support and limits the number of potiental buys. Just saying

[kevo]

Adrian wrote: All these little setup issues is convincing me more and more that I should just offer a complete setup package, excluding battery. I would assemble and setup everything including Motor, ESC, brain box. I might even offer the battery bag, parallel wires, balance cable as a kit. This means you would just need to buy the batteries and a charger, then plug things together. Because I have put everything together it would be tested, it would be standardised simplifying support and problem solving etc.

I always found his support and documentation of the commuter booster to be above and beyond. In addition he was both always quick to respond as well as followup with incredible detail in documenting. If selling the complete setup helps reduce support costs that seems great to me as well.

[adrian_sm]

Thanks for the feedback.

When I think about it a bit more there are quite a few advantages to offer a complete package (minus the batteries)

- less hassle for the buyer and seller
- less confusion for everyone, easier to setup
- might be able to mount ESC & brains all in one enclosure, mounted at seat post
--- this would eliminate possible need for phase extension wires
--- less interconnections to manufacture
--- easier to water proof
--- easier to package everything neatly
--- seperates ESC & brains mount from battery, making battery removal very quick. Therefore making off bike charging and taking battery with you really easy.

I played around with this concept a while ago with. Even made a few prototypes with plastic enclosures, but it required too much effort to expose the ESC heatsink, and keep everything water tight. But if I went for an extrude aluminium enclosure, I could use it as the heatsink for the ESC, avoiding the need to machine it (except for a few screw holes), and still keep everything water tight.

Something like this 80x54x23mm. Still much smaller than a 6fet controller.



(Just wish the black ones were readily available here and at the same price as the natural )

So now thinking of offer a kit that includes:
- Commuter Booster with motor
- Controller with ESC, basic no display brain box, with either button and/or twist throttle input

I would seperately offer a basic battery building kit, including
- Topeak Aerowedge Large saddle bag
- 4way parrallel battery lead
- 4way 5s balance parallel lead
- maybe a charging harnesses using a connector like this, allowing a single plug balancing charge connection.

This would leave people to buy 4x 5s 5000mah LiPo bricks, a charger and power supply.

Upgrades could include
- Display
- methods balance boards, and a charger.

I would love to be able to offer the battery pack as well, but at the moment Australia can not send LiPo by air, so I would have to arrange someone else to build packs for me.

Kit price would end up being similar to a hub motor kit from ebkies.ca.

Sound fair?

- Adrian

[jtchoy]

The 65Amps on the SK3 ratings is what you should keep it below if you want a healthy motor, not what it will max out at. It can pull well over 50 amps so I wouldn't risk your nice CC ESC.

The drive always requires you are moving before you hit the throttle, but should be fine from about 6kph if you do go full throttle straight up.

I think I settled down on about 80 grit as my preferred roughness. It allows the peaks to get some traction through the water, but isn't so rough to wear the tire much as the tire tries to conform to the motor shell.

- Adrian

I see, I won't risk the CC ESC until I get some measurements with the watt meter when it arrives. My other option is the hobbywing water cooled 60A ESC which I'm worried about overheating without water.

Yup, I always pedal to around 10kph before engaging throttle. During my test ride today I could clearly hear the motor stuttering for a second or so before it gets moving with help from the tyre. Still works fine though, but its annoying so I think I'll check with HK about the warranty.

40 grit works well for me so far, very grippy even under hard acceleration, but no wet/damp tests done yet. My rear tyre threads are only about half the depth of the front tyre though, so some significant wear there. I changed both tyres recently, and only used them for about 300KM. Must be my old emery cloth and 180 grit sanding belt slipping and causing the wear.

Today my cheap DX wireless speedo had trouble reading my speed. Only a few days old and I've tried changing the batteries. Grr, everything is quitting on me...

I always found his support and documentation of the commuter booster to be above and beyond. In addition he was both always quick to respond as well as followup with incredible detail in documenting. If selling the complete setup helps reduce support costs that seems great to me as well.

Yup, Adrian support is great and his manual is very professional! Thumbs UP!

[adrian_sm]

My rear tyre threads are only about half the depth of the front tyre though, so some significant wear there. I changed both tyres recently, and only used them for about 300KM. Must be my old emery cloth and 180 grit sanding belt slipping and causing the wear.

That sounds way too quick. I am worried something isn't setup right. Main culprits would be:
1) something to do with the stuttering
- fix ESC issue

2) too much power, as you are running it unlimited
- the brain box would fix this (I am not trying to push this, but I know others will read this thread and I I need to put it in)

3) incorrect engagement angle causing it to slip when first engaging the tire
- follow procedure in manual, but involves raising the mount on the seat tube

4) not enough engagement when fully engaged
- follow procedures in manual, but involves allowing the swing arm to rotate further by easing off on the dead stop

5) grip material too rough
- as the tire confirms to the motor shell, it actually does try to slide/squirm/shear across the motor shell slightly.
- so a really rough material and too much tire engagement will naturally wear the tire during the normal rolling contact without any power induced slip
- solutions would be less tire engagement, or reduce roughness of grip material. I am a fair weather rider these days, so I always run without any grip material on the motor, straight on the bare motor can. I get no noticeable additional wear of the tire, but some wear off the motor can due to sand etc from the road on the tire being rolled into the can surface.

Hope that helps.

- Adrian

[adrian_sm]

Turnigy Programming Card for Tz85A ESC is now in stock at hobby king.

If you are like me and hate with a passion programming the ESC, this thing makes it a breeze, and is only $5.

[kevo]

Sound fair?

Very much so.

4way 5s balance parallel lead

Could you add the option of 4way 6s?

Nice option packages as alternatives to hub.

[adrian_sm]

Turnigy 85A ESCs also in stock now for ~ $37. Woo Hoo !


@kevo. 6s sure. But only 3x 6s5Ah packs fit in the aero wedge bag. So I might need to source some alternatives battery bags. Bigger and smaller.

[jtchoy]

Thanks for the tips Adrian, I'll double check my setup which I've been tweaking a lot. I'm pretty sure the wear was caused by my old 60 grit emery cloth which wore off quickly, slipping and sanding down my tyre. Will be monitoring the tyre wear.

Yup, got the email alert from HK too that the ESC is back in stock. Will be contacting HK soon about the warranty.

Such a good day today, I fixed my cheapo wireless speedo too! The magnet sensor (just 2 thin strips of metal really) just needed some persuasion to work properly.

[adrian_sm]

Great. Let me know if you think I should alter the instructions in setting it up. I find it familiar and easy to setup so wasn't sure if my setup guide was any good.

- Adrian

[jtchoy]

Your instructions are great. The manual with photos and the videos are very clear, I had no problems understanding them.

[deepfraught]

A flat price kit option that is profitable for you and can be one Paypal click away to deliver the recommended parts list assembled as required for newbies, time poor, or just consumers who want to use it than learn it, sounds nice packaged with enclosure as you describe.

[jtchoy]

A warning to everyone using the Topeak Aero Wedge Pack with Quick Release.

The plastic clip on my bag broke today during a ride, causing it to drop onto the tyre and dangle by the velcro seat post strap.


It broke at the worst possible place, right at the turning point of my relaxing night ride, 15KMs away from home. I was lucky to find the small broken pieces on the floor and improvised a temporary strap with my cable lock to get me home. I could have pedalled the 15KMs home, no problem, but I would have to carry the bag in my hand as I wasn't carrying any other bags and that would have been pretty dangerous.

Seems like this is a pretty common issue according to user reviews on amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Topeak-Aero-Wedge ... B000FIE47C http://www.amazon.com/Topeak-Aero-Wedge ... B000FIAUAC

Topeak has a replacement part listed on the website, but I can't find it for sale online anywhere. http://www.topeak.com/products/Bags/trk_b002

I've sent an email to my local distributor (others had good luck with the US distributor sending them replacements for free), will see what they say but won't count on it. I've fixed it with some CA glue and epoxy to give it some strength, will see how it holds up during my next ride soon.

Just a heads up to those using the Aero Wedge with the quick release. I'll bring some large cable ties with me during the next trip in case it breaks again. The strap version should be much stronger than this quick release version. Oh, I was just carry 4 packs of 4s 4900mah lipos, phone and tools in the bag, about a 2.2KG load, not overloading it.

Sorry for OT on your sales thread Adrian. I will move this to your discussion thread instead if you want me to.

[adrian_sm]

Not OT at all, as this is/was my preferred and recommended method of mounting the battery pack.

Ah that sucks. Looks like a design fault and not a one off either. For the record I have never had a failure with the quick release model, but I have found that the strap model can have the strap clip unclip themselves when you go over bumpy stuff (luckily it has two straps, so it is not an immediate battery ejection) so it is not the solution either.

I really like these bags as they are just the right size for 4x 5s5Ah batteries which is a really useful capacity, and look very at home on a bike compared to most of the alternative ways of mounting a battery. So I won't give up on them just yet.

For those keen to still use them may I suggest a few things that should solve the issues.

Problem (1) for Topeak Aerowedge saddle bags - Quick release version
When installing the battery bag and clipping it on to the bike, before the clip engages the bag hits the seat post. This can cause an additional pivoting load on the mounting clip that Justin had fail, when the bag is pushed all the way in.
Remedies (1)
1a) Move the mounting bracket as far back underneath your saddle as possible
1b) If possible move you saddle back on your seat post.

Problem 2 for Topeak Aerowedge saddle bags - Quick release and strap versions
The combination of the weight, and the design of the clip looks like it creates a stress concentration near the front edge that causes the failure Justin posted above.
Rememdies
2a) Reduce the weight taken by the clip. This can be achieved by putting a strap around the entire bag, and over the two rails that your seat mounts on to the seat tube with. It tried this with velcro but it tends to creep over time unless you have a quite wide strap (1" plus). A better solution might be an elastic strap, stretched enough to actually take all the vertical battery load off the clip. Or an adjustable length web strap, that you can shorten to again take the weight, and lift the bag into the seat.

Problem 3 for the Topeak Aerowedge saddle bags - strap version
The clip unclips it self when going over bumps. This is likely to be a combination of weight and impact loads.
Remedies 3
3a) Implement remedy (2a) as above


Hope this helps. I am really annoyed by this failure as it would have been good to have an off-the-shelf solution to mounting the batteries, but it looks like the design is just not up to the task we are throwing at it. So requires a bit of support.

- Adrian

[kevo]

jtchoy wrote:The plastic clip on my bag broke today during a ride

That sucks JT. I too had failures with the quick release version of the Topeak and quickly I reverted to the not so quick, but stronger strap version (same volume).

OTOH my Topeak bag was commented on one Lycra as looking like Bulls Balls Swinging in the Breeze when unloaded LOL

[jtchoy]

That's a nice list of solutions as usual Adrian.

I had my mounting bracket as far back as possible, and my saddle as far back while still being comfortable for me. I did hit a small bump when it broke, but I was dead slow with my feet down walking the bike down the bump.

I really like the bag too, plenty of space to put my phone, tools and misc items even with batteries inside. Not giving up on it yet.

I've got a reply from my local distributor, they want me to send it back to them to take a look even though I sent them the photo. Will see how my CA glue fix holds up. Might be a few weeks downtime if I send it back and wait for a replacement.

@kevo: Hate to have to buy another bag because of a broken clip, and Adrian had problems with the strap version too.

I won't use my Topeak bag unloaded so I won't get the bull balls comment too.

[jtchoy]

Took the broken bag back to my LBS today, was prepared to wait for at least a few days while they send it back to the distributor. I got an exchange for a brand new bag after a while instead! Kudos to my LBS.

I'm back in business! Will be taking precautions with this new one, going to use a velcro strap to support the weight and will be very careful going over bumps.

I noticed the strap version at the LBS (it was not in stock when I got the quick release version), it looks stronger than the QR version (cheaper too) and I was considering asking if I could exchange for that instead. But I didn't want to trouble my LBS any more. I will ask for the strap version if this new one fails too (hopefully not).

[adrian_sm]

Great service from your LBS. Sometimes it pays to support the local supplier rather than the cheapest internet deal.

Just a quick couple of notes on the strap version of the bag, for anyone considering it.

1) It is a bit fiddly to feed the straps through the seat rails. So if you plan on taking the bag on and off the bike often this may get annoying. The quick release one is indeed quick to install and remove.
2) The straps let you position the bag under the saddle with more freedom than the quick release which locks in one position. So it will suit people that like there saddle position forward on the seat post.
3) I have had one of the buckles unclip when going off-road. This might be fixed by a small tweak to the clip make a more positive engagement
4) It is cheaper.

- Adrian

[adrian_sm]

ANNOUCEMENT

A recent batch of drives had the hole used to mount the axle incorrectly tolerenced, resulting in the shaft working loose in a short period of time. All those customers have been informed, with instructions on fixing it themselves, or the option of a replacement.

The fix tested internally, and the trial by beta testers was to glue the axle in place with JB Weld or 3M DP-420. On our test units here a correctly tolerance assembly, and the glued axles have both proved 100% reliable. But we have now had one failure in the field with a glued axle on a reconditioned swing arm. I am still gathering the information on whether there were any other contributing factors, but wanted to make this public just in case others experience issues.

So please Beta testers check your axles.

The warning signs are:
1) axle no longer flush with outer face of swing arm
2) drive not engaging tire as well as when first adjusted
3) counterbalance spring requires adjustment after being set up properly.
4) any play between axle and swing arm

If you notice any of these please contact me immediately.

- Adrian

[jtchoy]

Thanks for the update Adrian, I'll be keeping a close eye on my JB-welded axle. So far so good though!

[adrian_sm]

Bit of an update on the axle concern. Looks like there were a few contributing factors to the single failure that abnormally stressed the joint. So my stress levels have dropped a notch or two. The failure also allowed us the opportunity to inspect the glue surfaces, and this indicates that the glue had not bonded fully with the metal, pointing to contaminated surfaces or poor surface preparation. So cleaning the two mating surfaces with isopropyl alcohol (IPA) prior to glue is definitely advised.

I will also be performing more specific targeted tests over the coming weeks on both correctly toleranced press fit, and glued assemblies. With various load condition, over load conditions, and ultimate failure.

I am still very confident that the original press fit solution is robust, and will be pursuing this for the next batch of drives. My personal drives that have been used for all my testing were assembled in this manner and have been rock solid. Most of there life has been spent at <1000w, and with controlled engagement via the Brain Box, but there has been more stressful conditions including 2+ kW power, off-roading, wheelies, very high tire pressures, and excessive tire engagement and more.

- Adrian

[adrian_sm]

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT - TURN OFF THE ESC WHEN YOU FINISH YOUR RIDE

I have just had an email from someone that rode their bike to the ESCs LVC. This cut the power and stopped him from damaging his battery, all good. But .... unfortunately he did not then turn the ESC off. The ESCs typically draw 1.0 - 1.5w when on, and the brain box another ~0.3w. So this will slowly drain your batteries when on. Anyway, the next day most cells in his pack were @ 2.5v, but one on each pack was at 0.5v.

This was all on a 5s10Ah pack, so ~185wh.

As an example let's see what leaving the ESC on for a day would do.
1.8w x 24 hours = 43 wh
That is roughly a quarter of the packs capacity.

So please remember to turn off the ESC, or unplug the battery when you have finished your ride.

- Adrian

[jtchoy]

Damn, at least it was only 2 5s packs that were ruined?

From my RC experience using lipos, I always follow these rules:
1. Avoid running all the way down to LVC. Time/measure your usage to 70-80% DOD max to give the lipo a happy and long life.
2. Always unplug lipo immediately after use. More of a safety issue in RC helis/planes, but also prevents idle current killing the lipo.

The switch on the Turnigy 85A ESC makes it very convenient, I always switch it off when getting off the bike to prevent accidental throttle activation when getting back on. I wonder if there's any small current draw if left plugged in but switched off though?

I unplug the lipo after my ride and bring it inside to charge. Always take good care of it to prevent a premature death.