Greyborg Cromotor Hubzilla motors, Sold Out

[chroot]

lol I love wheelie cause I used own a 1997 GSXR750RR super sport class and 153mph is even worse due never know ending up tank slappers. I had 4 times sudden tank slappers during the high speed. THANK GOD i didn't into accident.

I am looking forward wheelie on my ebike.

[teklektik]

Would be interesting to see some fairly constant speed pavement tests at different speeds like 20, 25, 30. More commuter like.

I agree, but it's difficult to do.

Why?

[hillzofvalp]

because you neeed no stop signs... equal wind.. same slope... etc.

Can't wait for my cromotor 29er! This 2807 is very close to spontaneously flaming up on me. My custom dp420 adhered torque plates (total width per side is .5") don't seem to be giving up with the 9c at 3.5kw. I hope that this is the case with the cromotor at 6-10kw...

[Alan B]

I wonder if the 29'er wheels are strong enough for the Cromotor. One good pothole in the pavement and the mass of the motor may pretzel the wheel (if the torque on startup doesn't). Seems like a more serious wheel is indicated.

[teklektik]

because you neeed no stop signs... equal wind.. same slope... etc.

Seriously. Z is in Nevada - land of flat and desert. You don't need twelve miles of test - find a mile of paved road that's as close to flat as you can manage, reset the CA, and run it. Record the results, reset, turn around and run it back in the reverse direction and average (just like Bonneville).

To get fancy you program the CA for speed regulation, hook up a 5K pot, set the speed, and let the CA do the driving (taking the operator out of the test). Spend $100 and get a Cycle Analogger to record the data and post the raw files.

[Alan B]

Great proposal.

You can even set the CA for max speed values and use full throttle to simplify the setup.

Getting some different speed efficiencies would be great.

[hillzofvalp]

I wonder if the 29'er wheels are strong enough for the Cromotor. One good pothole in the pavement and the mass of the motor may pretzel the wheel (if the torque on startup doesn't). Seems like a more serious wheel is indicated.

I will try to use a rhyno lite or salsa 36mm rim.. With thick spokes. Even thicker than 12 gauge?Enough tire to dampen the pot holes.. Good enough roll-over capability?

[gensem]

I will try to use a rhyno lite or salsa 36mm rim.. With thick spokes. Even thicker than 12 gauge?Enough tire to dampen the pot holes.. Good enough roll-over capability?

I think if you use 12g spokes you ll not be able to tension the spokes as much as you would need to... on the other side ballon tires are always good and can work as a damper too.
Im using moped rims and dont plan on going back. To be truth my next cromotor bicycle ll have moped rims in the front wheel too. I just dont trust bicycle wheels at 90km/h

[hillzofvalp]

I'm going about 55kph. Not sure on the spokes yet... I'll probably call jrh. If anyone else has huge concerns with a 29er cromotor build, please let me know. 66V.

[Alan B]

I will try to use a rhyno lite or salsa 36mm rim.. With thick spokes. Even thicker than 12 gauge?Enough tire to dampen the pot holes.. Good enough roll-over capability?

...

Quote above was wrongly attributed to me, I have fixed it in this post.

I'm not an expert on 29'er wheels, I just raise the question. I'm headed to Moped wheels for this motor. Please consult with wheel experts to make sure you are getting a proper and safe setup.

This is a presale thread, so this discussion might belong elsewhere. Sorry for the OT comments.

I have my Cromotor, now waiting for the Rims to arrive!

[Microbatman]

Please explain the new flange situation more.

The big question is. Is the new flange on center (Axel Shoulder to Axle Shoulder) or not?

Will it be necessary to dish the wheel?
Or will it work without dishing?
Why the change on the flange?
Help me understand the reason that one would choose to complicate the installation.
Some of us here (me included) are not as smart or have the machining/fabrication resoures/contacts as others..

Here is a picture that I got from page 5 of this thread for the Version 1 motor flange
It looks like its on center. Why change something thats working?
Do you have a picture like this of the new Version 2 motor flange so we can see what the difference is?

[hillzofvalp]

Do you think you could offer large ID nord-locks with your motors?

[NeilP]

Damn and I have already paid up for my X 5405 motor, bugger

I would not be to worried about nord locks. I have just taken mine off and gone back to industrial thread lock
I used the stainless steel ( harder) Nord Locks and although they do show the ridge marks on both nut and torque plate, they would just not stay tight

[zombiess]

:?:
Please explain the new flange situation more.

The big question is. Is the new flange on center (Axel Shoulder to Axle Shoulder) or not?

Will it be necessary to dish the wheel?
Or will it work without dishing?
Why the change on the flange?
Help me understand the reason that one would choose to complicate the installation.
Some of us here (me included) are not as smart or have the machining/fabrication resoures/contacts as others..

Here is a picture that I got from page 5 of this thread for the Version 1 motor flange
It looks like its on center. Why change something thats working?
Do you have a picture like this of the new Version 2 motor flange so we can see what the difference is?

The change in the flange was done by the manufacturer and not Greyborg, don't know why except it's how China manufacturing works. I've heard horror stories about every kind of manufacturing done in China. Some companies pay an employee from their company to do nothing but stand around and baby sit the manufacturing process to make sure the Chinese don't try to cut corners or something else crooked. Unless you have lots of money or a really good relation$hip withe manufacturer, your gonna get what ever they are gong to give you. I looked into placing an order myself from Crystalyte and Nine Continent. The people I talked to who have dealt with these companies got screwed pretty often. It's just how things are done in China, they are going to do what they are going to do and unless you have lots of money, are fluent in Chinese and can have someone baby sit the manufacturing, you get what you get. Just the way it is when you deal with them. It's this way with everything (remember melamine in the milk killing babies). I travel to Hong Kong a lot and meet a lot of people in air ports and on planes who deal with manufacturing. Some absolute horror stories, some in the millions of dollars.

Here is a great example that hurt 300,000 people and killed 6 babies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal Two greedy bastards were caught and promptly executed and several others jailed.

Enough of me griping about China (I love Hong Kong but haven't been to the mainland yet), but there is still some really goofy stuff that happens in Hong Kong too.

Pictures of the flange are posted in the first post of this thread. If the wheel needs to be dished any wheel builder can do it, it's not unusual. My front 20" BMX wheel using a mountain bikes disc brake hub should have been dished but I didn't realize it when I had it built so it's offset to one side a bit. Doesn't effect anything. If I would have brought in the fork they could have dished it but they didn't know (but asked me about it) and neither did I. I'm still able to fit a 2.5" wide Pirelli ML75 on the front so it's all good with me.

[BATFINK]

Are the new frames any different? I see on greyborg site it says new design coming in may?

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[BATFINK]

Any images of new frames?

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[hillzofvalp]

I worry somewhat about the 14mm vs 16mm axle change. Seeing how some high powered crystalytes' axles have failed, I wonder if a 16mm would be more appropriate. what do you think?

[hillzofvalp]

If someone wants to pay for shipping to Justin and then to my residence after testing, i wouldn't mind letting my motor be the guinea pig. I may even have him lace it while it's out there.

[zombiess]

I worry somewhat about the 14mm vs 16mm axle change. Seeing how some high powered crystalytes' axles have failed, I wonder if a 16mm would be more appropriate. what do you think?

It's not going to be an issue. I have the first version with a 16mm axle and if the new axles are the same metal they will be plenty strong. I was able to tighten up the nut so tight that I stripped the threads... on the nut. Axle wasn't even scratched. When I felt it spin my heart sank because I thought I stripped the axle and that would be bad. I was so happy when I figured out the nut was toast.

As much as I like the 16mm axles for their extra beef, getting torque arms fit was not possible by myself. Tried to have some ampedbikes torque arms modified but that didn't work out as well as I liked. Then I decided to have the stock dropouts cut off and DoctorBass's torque arms welded onto my swing arm extension and the problem was solved, gotta love steel.

Just wait until you guys see what I'm doing with one of the motors I'm getting. I'm going to stress these axles harder than probably anyone on here (14mm size). Here is a hint, think drag racing launch. If you are worried about strength, just run wider torque plates / arms to spread the force. I've also had great luck with my 9C motors running tons of power through with just ampedbikes torque arms and one side is hollow.

[neptronix]

I worry somewhat about the 14mm vs 16mm axle change. Seeing how some high powered crystalytes' axles have failed, I wonder if a 16mm would be more appropriate. what do you think?

Sorry zombiess, i hate throwing anything negative into a for sale thread, but i completely agree with hillsofvalp here.
This motor could easily put out 200ft-lb or more. A 14mm axle is going to be a weak spot for this motor.

I hope 16mm axles can be offered as an option, or aftermarket part.
A wider torque plate/arm won't help, the failure on high powered crystalytes occurred where the axle meets the bike's dropouts, not afterwards.

Prove my skepticism wrong, please!

[zombiess]

I worry somewhat about the 14mm vs 16mm axle change. Seeing how some high powered crystalytes' axles have failed, I wonder if a 16mm would be more appropriate. what do you think?

Sorry zombiess, i hate throwing anything negative into a for sale thread, but i completely agree with hillsofvalp here.
This motor could easily put out 200ft-lb or more. A 14mm axle is going to be a weak spot for this motor.

I hope 16mm axles can be offered as an option, or aftermarket part.
A wider torque plate/arm won't help, the failure on high powered crystalytes occurred where the axle meets the bike's dropouts, not afterwards.

Prove my skepticism wrong, please!

Not sure exactly how to prove what you want. I sure as hell am not going to try and purposely destroy an axle on a motor I have to sell to get my money back because of pure speculation. If you are interested in seeing what happens, just wait until my drag bike is finished which will hopefully be before the Grange race. Not sure if it's going to wheelie or not with the long swing arm (20" longer than stock, 58" axle to axle), but if it can take a WOT hit from a dead stop it's going to produce 350 ft/lbs of torque on the 14mm axle. This is dumping 21KW into the controller. I'm not worried about it and I doubt anyone else will be trying to do something this crazy with one of these motors. Then again, I have more to prove than anyone else, especially since I'm the only person posting videos and examples of what they can do. I wonder what happened to the other 19 motors sold to USA customers, I've only seen one video so far besides mine.

Comparing this to a Crystalyte is also silly. The only thing in common is that they have 14mm axles and are 3 phase BLDC motors. Without any context such as how the other motors were installed, what kind of materials were used, weight, torque /etc/etc /etc it means nothing. Worrying about a 14mm axle on this motor because someone with a Crystalyte broke their 14mm axle is like worrying that this motor will have wiring issues because a bunch of Crystalyte motors did. Doesn't make any sense unless something happens, then it needs to be studied to see why it failed. I could probably break my 16mm axle by just installing my motor improperly. If installed without the flat parts flush against a torque arm/plate you can create a shear that will cut an axle if the metal is hard enough and has play in the dropout/torque arm/plate. I've heard stories of Ampedbikes torque arms cutting into axles, yet I use them on several bikes with high powered 9 continent setups and they don't even hurt the threads because they are installed correctly. 9C axles are also 14mm on most motors and one end is hollow and thin, yet I haven't read of them breaking. You must have proper context and knowledge before making generalized statements such as "A 14mm axle is going to be a weak spot for this motor" unless you've done a conclusive proper destructive test or at least an stress analysis after knowing the material and forces in play as well as the mounting method.

I can tell you that when I got my motor and realized it has 16mm axles it was a real pain in the ass to figure out how to get torque arms on it. If I didn't have access to fabricators my motor would have been sitting unused for a lot longer because I can't fabricate with metal.

Sometimes I wonder if people on this forum are building motorcycles or bicycles? I'm doing crazy stuff because I'm proving what it's capable of, but when I ride I rarely exceed 35 mph and I sure don't try to go WOT from a dead stop with the power I have, it will flip me over backwards before I know what happened.

Greyborgs goal which has been stated many times is to have a motor that can withstand hard use, hill climbing and makes a great commuter. If you want to get extreme, then you need to be willing to make extreme mods and also pay the price if you make an illegal electric bicycle. Most people wanted longer axles, including me and I'm guessing the factory couldn't supply longer axles in 16mm so this is what we have. The first batch that was sold had some pretty short axles which made installations tricky on some bikes (including mine). Even now one side of my motor uses a nut that's half the size of the stock one in order to fit with all the threads. A 14mm axle is going to work fine unless you want to do something really extreme and at that point you should probably purchase a motor that uses another type of axle.

Any images of new frames?

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Will be in a separate thread when info is ready.

***********************************************************
Added another video to the front page of a friend riding my bike doing some high speed flybys while I was taking video. Bike really moves.

[hillzofvalp]

We can look at it more positively in the respect that the axle will have no hollow center of axle channel (didn't crystalytes have that?). If you are willing to provide your 16mm version to anyone, such as me, let me know, cause i have ginormous dropouts. I'm still going to get whatever you offer.

Any thoughts re: Justin?

[nicobie]

You must have proper context and knowledge before making generalized statements such as "A 14mm axle is going to be a weak spot for this motor" unless you've done a conclusive proper destructive test or at least an stress analysis after knowing the material and forces in play as well as the mounting method.

Ain't that the truth!

A person has to be careful reading some posts as there is a lot of speculation and unsupported opinions in a bunch of these threads.

[zombiess]

You must have proper context and knowledge before making generalized statements such as "A 14mm axle is going to be a weak spot for this motor" unless you've done a conclusive proper destructive test or at least an stress analysis after knowing the material and forces in play as well as the mounting method.

Ain't that the truth!

A person has to be careful reading some posts as there is a lot of speculation and unsupported opinions in a bunch of these threads.

Well here is one that isn't speculation as I received word from Greyborg and HAL9000v2.0 who is an engineer and says these are perfectly fine just as I said. The 14mm axles with 10mm flats have a engineered rating of 5000 kg load.

[auraslip]

I think some people saw docs torque arm cut into his x5 axle and assumed that the mild steel these axles are made with just can't handle the power we put through them. Of course the problem is that a 1/4" of hard steel vs. 1/4" of mild axle steel is gonna fail. If you spread the load along the axle you won't have a problem with the drop outs cutting into the axle.