Greyborg Cromotor Hubzilla motors, Sold Out

[BATFINK]

Any images of new frames?

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[hillzofvalp]

I worry somewhat about the 14mm vs 16mm axle change. Seeing how some high powered crystalytes' axles have failed, I wonder if a 16mm would be more appropriate. what do you think?

[hillzofvalp]

If someone wants to pay for shipping to Justin and then to my residence after testing, i wouldn't mind letting my motor be the guinea pig. I may even have him lace it while it's out there.

[zombiess]

I worry somewhat about the 14mm vs 16mm axle change. Seeing how some high powered crystalytes' axles have failed, I wonder if a 16mm would be more appropriate. what do you think?

It's not going to be an issue. I have the first version with a 16mm axle and if the new axles are the same metal they will be plenty strong. I was able to tighten up the nut so tight that I stripped the threads... on the nut. Axle wasn't even scratched. When I felt it spin my heart sank because I thought I stripped the axle and that would be bad. I was so happy when I figured out the nut was toast.

As much as I like the 16mm axles for their extra beef, getting torque arms fit was not possible by myself. Tried to have some ampedbikes torque arms modified but that didn't work out as well as I liked. Then I decided to have the stock dropouts cut off and DoctorBass's torque arms welded onto my swing arm extension and the problem was solved, gotta love steel.

Just wait until you guys see what I'm doing with one of the motors I'm getting. I'm going to stress these axles harder than probably anyone on here (14mm size). Here is a hint, think drag racing launch. If you are worried about strength, just run wider torque plates / arms to spread the force. I've also had great luck with my 9C motors running tons of power through with just ampedbikes torque arms and one side is hollow.

[neptronix]

I worry somewhat about the 14mm vs 16mm axle change. Seeing how some high powered crystalytes' axles have failed, I wonder if a 16mm would be more appropriate. what do you think?

Sorry zombiess, i hate throwing anything negative into a for sale thread, but i completely agree with hillsofvalp here.
This motor could easily put out 200ft-lb or more. A 14mm axle is going to be a weak spot for this motor.

I hope 16mm axles can be offered as an option, or aftermarket part.
A wider torque plate/arm won't help, the failure on high powered crystalytes occurred where the axle meets the bike's dropouts, not afterwards.

Prove my skepticism wrong, please!

[zombiess]

I worry somewhat about the 14mm vs 16mm axle change. Seeing how some high powered crystalytes' axles have failed, I wonder if a 16mm would be more appropriate. what do you think?

Sorry zombiess, i hate throwing anything negative into a for sale thread, but i completely agree with hillsofvalp here.
This motor could easily put out 200ft-lb or more. A 14mm axle is going to be a weak spot for this motor.

I hope 16mm axles can be offered as an option, or aftermarket part.
A wider torque plate/arm won't help, the failure on high powered crystalytes occurred where the axle meets the bike's dropouts, not afterwards.

Prove my skepticism wrong, please!

Not sure exactly how to prove what you want. I sure as hell am not going to try and purposely destroy an axle on a motor I have to sell to get my money back because of pure speculation. If you are interested in seeing what happens, just wait until my drag bike is finished which will hopefully be before the Grange race. Not sure if it's going to wheelie or not with the long swing arm (20" longer than stock, 58" axle to axle), but if it can take a WOT hit from a dead stop it's going to produce 350 ft/lbs of torque on the 14mm axle. This is dumping 21KW into the controller. I'm not worried about it and I doubt anyone else will be trying to do something this crazy with one of these motors. Then again, I have more to prove than anyone else, especially since I'm the only person posting videos and examples of what they can do. I wonder what happened to the other 19 motors sold to USA customers, I've only seen one video so far besides mine.

Comparing this to a Crystalyte is also silly. The only thing in common is that they have 14mm axles and are 3 phase BLDC motors. Without any context such as how the other motors were installed, what kind of materials were used, weight, torque /etc/etc /etc it means nothing. Worrying about a 14mm axle on this motor because someone with a Crystalyte broke their 14mm axle is like worrying that this motor will have wiring issues because a bunch of Crystalyte motors did. Doesn't make any sense unless something happens, then it needs to be studied to see why it failed. I could probably break my 16mm axle by just installing my motor improperly. If installed without the flat parts flush against a torque arm/plate you can create a shear that will cut an axle if the metal is hard enough and has play in the dropout/torque arm/plate. I've heard stories of Ampedbikes torque arms cutting into axles, yet I use them on several bikes with high powered 9 continent setups and they don't even hurt the threads because they are installed correctly. 9C axles are also 14mm on most motors and one end is hollow and thin, yet I haven't read of them breaking. You must have proper context and knowledge before making generalized statements such as "A 14mm axle is going to be a weak spot for this motor" unless you've done a conclusive proper destructive test or at least an stress analysis after knowing the material and forces in play as well as the mounting method.

I can tell you that when I got my motor and realized it has 16mm axles it was a real pain in the ass to figure out how to get torque arms on it. If I didn't have access to fabricators my motor would have been sitting unused for a lot longer because I can't fabricate with metal.

Sometimes I wonder if people on this forum are building motorcycles or bicycles? I'm doing crazy stuff because I'm proving what it's capable of, but when I ride I rarely exceed 35 mph and I sure don't try to go WOT from a dead stop with the power I have, it will flip me over backwards before I know what happened.

Greyborgs goal which has been stated many times is to have a motor that can withstand hard use, hill climbing and makes a great commuter. If you want to get extreme, then you need to be willing to make extreme mods and also pay the price if you make an illegal electric bicycle. Most people wanted longer axles, including me and I'm guessing the factory couldn't supply longer axles in 16mm so this is what we have. The first batch that was sold had some pretty short axles which made installations tricky on some bikes (including mine). Even now one side of my motor uses a nut that's half the size of the stock one in order to fit with all the threads. A 14mm axle is going to work fine unless you want to do something really extreme and at that point you should probably purchase a motor that uses another type of axle.

Any images of new frames?

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Will be in a separate thread when info is ready.

***********************************************************
Added another video to the front page of a friend riding my bike doing some high speed flybys while I was taking video. Bike really moves.

[hillzofvalp]

We can look at it more positively in the respect that the axle will have no hollow center of axle channel (didn't crystalytes have that?). If you are willing to provide your 16mm version to anyone, such as me, let me know, cause i have ginormous dropouts. I'm still going to get whatever you offer.

Any thoughts re: Justin?

[nicobie]

You must have proper context and knowledge before making generalized statements such as "A 14mm axle is going to be a weak spot for this motor" unless you've done a conclusive proper destructive test or at least an stress analysis after knowing the material and forces in play as well as the mounting method.

Ain't that the truth!

A person has to be careful reading some posts as there is a lot of speculation and unsupported opinions in a bunch of these threads.

[zombiess]

You must have proper context and knowledge before making generalized statements such as "A 14mm axle is going to be a weak spot for this motor" unless you've done a conclusive proper destructive test or at least an stress analysis after knowing the material and forces in play as well as the mounting method.

Ain't that the truth!

A person has to be careful reading some posts as there is a lot of speculation and unsupported opinions in a bunch of these threads.

Well here is one that isn't speculation as I received word from Greyborg and HAL9000v2.0 who is an engineer and says these are perfectly fine just as I said. The 14mm axles with 10mm flats have a engineered rating of 5000 kg load.

[auraslip]

I think some people saw docs torque arm cut into his x5 axle and assumed that the mild steel these axles are made with just can't handle the power we put through them. Of course the problem is that a 1/4" of hard steel vs. 1/4" of mild axle steel is gonna fail. If you spread the load along the axle you won't have a problem with the drop outs cutting into the axle.

[chroot]

@Zombiess check this out the review. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37725

[zombiess]

@Zombiess check this out the review. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37725

Looks like a tamer more controllable version of my race bike but with more amps. I'm guessing they are running 24 or 26" wheels. I love these motors, but on my 20.2" wheels it can get sketchy with the power turned up. Crazy amounts of power. This is why I back accountant about not making any more powerful than this one. Want to go faster, just up the volts.

Thanks for the link. These motors are probably the king of bicycle hub motors unless someone comes out with something even more ridiculous. Best part is you turn down the amps and run 72V and you have a super solid fast reliable commuter or you can do what these guys did and crank the volts and amps up and get silly.

[hillzofvalp]

Gosh though... What kind of range do people horsing around get with these settings? 7-10 miles maybe with 1kWh? I'm just saying. I want it. I also want higher energy density chemistries.

I can't wait to post results of this motor at 66V in a 29" wheel--- I would bet with the same settings (55A/120A) it will be nearly the same range, given how inefficient it is to overpower a 9C

P.s. I wish you had motors this week cause my gf is in Vegas!

[Deutch420]

I'm confused. 125 volts at 200 amps and he only gets a maximum draw of 9kw according to the CA. ???? 125v at 200amps should provide up tp 25kw, no?
Also, holy voltage sag Batman! He goes from 125v down to 103v wile consuming 9kw. A lot of sag. I wonder how much sag he would see if he pulled 25kw. Lol. Why 22v of sag under wot when hes only hitting it with 70 or sk amps? (125v @ 70amps = 9kw which is what the CA displays under wot). Also, 30s pack, charged fully to 4.2 is 126v. Of tjat 126 volts u can consume 21v (if hot off the charger) (.7v x 30 = 21. (4.2 - 3.5v)). So with that said, shouldnt his LVC be set to 105v ish? Appears his voltage sag is so bad that even at a full charge , when he goes wot he is a few volts below where his LVC should be. Is it safe to go wot when ur voltage sag brings you down to 3.4v?

[zombiess]

I'm confused. 125 volts at 200 amps and he only gets a maximum draw of 9kw according to the CA. ???? 125v at 200amps should provide up tp 25kw, no?
Also, holy voltage sag Batman! He goes from 125v down to 103v wile consuming 9kw. A lot of sag. I wonder how much sag he would see if he pulled 25kw. Lol. Why 22v of sag under wot when hes only hitting it with 70 or sk amps? (125v @ 70amps = 9kw which is what the CA displays under wot)

My guess is he is using a Kelly controller and quoting the phase amp settings he is running, not the battery amp setting like the Xie Chang boards. Based on his voltage sag and KW he's pulling close to 90-100A out of the battery 10KW/104V = 96A which it doesn't like at all! Notice when he lets off the voltage pops right back up into the mid 120's? Batteries must be really high resistance.

[zombiess]

Sorry guys, I thought I was going to be able to drop the price down a little but I'm going to officially have to lock in the price at $595 Just too many middle men taking percentages and the shipping is costing more than expected.

[Alan B]

Still a good price for this special motor. The savings on shipping alone ordering stateside will be worthwhile.

Of course I ordered mine the hard way, but it is here, but I'm waiting for rims.

And time to get the frame all put together. But the parts are piling up.

[zombiess]

Still a good price for this special motor. The savings on shipping alone ordering stateside will be worthwhile.

Of course I ordered mine the hard way, but it is here, but I'm waiting for rims.

And time to get the frame all put together. But the parts are piling up.

I've already got some shipping quotes from FedEx Ground, to NY, NY from Las Vegas, it's a little less than $50 and 5 days.
To San Francisco it's under $30 and arrives in 1-2 days.

Much cheaper than the $845 total I paid for my motor. You should see the shipping bill I have to pay just to get the motors to me here, over 1000lbs coming Air Freight + what ever customs is going to want so I can get these out to everyone as fast as possible.

[oatnet]

Much cheaper than the $845 total I paid for my motor.

You should have asked me to sweeten up Accountant for you. Mine only cost $665.16, although my bank charged me $30 for an international money order, so $695 total with shipping and payment.

I assume PayPal fees are on top of the $595 price? So final cost to someone in vegas would be right around $665.00?

-JD

[zombiess]

Much cheaper than the $845 total I paid for my motor.

You should have asked me to sweeten up Accountant for you. Mine only cost $665.16, although my bank charged me $30 for an international money order, so $695 total with shipping and payment.

I assume PayPal fees are on top of the $595 price? So final cost to someone in vegas would be right around $665.00?

-JD

I'm not charging paypal fees. Price listed is price paid + shipping cost. Price to someone in Vegas would be $595 and hopefully they would pick it up to save themselves shipping.

I think that's what I paid but now you have me questioning my memory. Gotta go look at the old invoice. Bank charged me $45 for the transfer. I just remember kinda choking on the number a little since I'm usually pretty tight fisted and this was a gamble for me at time.

*edit* found the old invoice, it was 527 Euros shipped (about $695 USD) + my bank got me for $45 for the wire transfer + money conversion.

[hillzofvalp]

Zombiess, I ran into some extra funds so I should be on time with the majority of others preordering. My 9C is beginning to blacken . I cannot wait for this beast on my boat of a 29er! I might be able to take on my friends dual AC motorcycle with 4kWh of lipo amongst the roads of this campus town (not). Really need to find some good rubber for this thing

[justin_le]

I know they are standup guys, but having the motor data in the simulator woulda be awesome.

Hey guys, I've done enough testing of the 205mm dia 23 pole motors now that I could probably generate a pretty accurate set of motor parameters for the simulator without even seeing or dyno testing one.

I am guessing that this is the same stator lamination pattern as the 9C hubs but with a 50mm wide lamination stack and magnet width, instead of the 24, 27, or 35mm which are normally used in ebike hubs?
If that's the case, then I would only need to know

a) The exact KV value in RPM/V
b) The full throttle / no load current draw at 2 different voltages, (like no load current at 24V and no load current at 48V)
c) The room temperature winding resistance, found by putting a 10A through the windings with a regulated DC power supply and then measuring the voltage drop across the leads
d) The number of winding turns per pole (so I can calculated/estimate the phase inductance)
e) Total weight of the hub (used in the thermal modelling)

If you can get me this info, then I'd be game to try getting a proto version up on the simulator, and then let you guys tell me if it seems to match pretty well to the real world performance. Then later on when we can get one in our hands to dyno test, we'll put the actual data up with what was "predicted" and see how close or far it was. It would be a fun public testing of methodologies.

-Justin

[Accountant]

Once more time ;


It is about using different materials, not about the windings.


Cromotor is different than 2X NC, it just looks simmilar from outside, and that are all simmilarities.

[hillzofvalp]

Then we can probably safely assume the simulator is true for at least the above approximations, maybe more. Getting at least a ball park graph would be very useful

[teklektik]

Once more time ;
It is about using different materials, not about the windings.
Cromotor is different than 2X NC, it just looks simmilar from outside, and that are all simmilarities.

Accountant-

So work with us here - your cost for motors is inconsequential from a business perspective and not having this motor in Justin's simulator is cutting into your sales. Get a couple to Justin for testing and eliminate the mystery.

This thread is about wheelies, custom controllers, flipping the bike, taming the beast, going 60+mph and oh, yeah, it's good for commuters, too. Your sales plan calls for data on non-mega-controllers and lower voltages to come from customer anecdotes. Commuters, grocery-getters, and family car replacements are undoubtedly your largest potential market demographic and are largely being ignored. Many folks are looking for a high torque workhorse for multi-purpose daily use and aren't focused on a warp speed drag bike (e.g. V6 mini-van...).

The ebikes.ca simulator is the Underwood Labs, the JD Powers of bike motors. It's the place folks go for 'What if?'. The comparative nature of this simulator cannot be matched by dedicated product or build-specific simulation or test results. Eventually, some information will leak out from customer reports about your motor but the value will be build-specific and the test procedures nowhere close to those of Justin's. 'What if?' design questions will still be guesswork.

At some point, sales may ramp up, but you certainly must realize that there is no proprietary technology involved in producing this motor. If it garners a respectable market share and there is money to be made, imitators will arise without difficulty. I would think that you would like to achieve as much product visibility, market penetration, and customer support/loyalty as soon as possible. That means aggressively enabling sales, not a vague plan of word-of-mouth tales by customers. You shot yourself in the foot when you released information of another (possibly better) commuter motor (also with no specs), which further clouded the picture and undoubtedly killed some sales of this motor.

So - take the mystery out of this motor. Justin is offering to help you - help him to help us and work with him. Get it tested.

From ebikes.ca simulator page

Can you add motor XXX or YYY to the list?
Doing a full characterization of a hub motor takes a lot of our time and also requires destructive testing to understand the thermal limits. To add a new motor we require

• a) that it is readily available as a motor only and without an integrated controller (so no BionX), and
• b) that we are given for keeping two samples of said motor, one for destructive test and the other to keep on hand as reference should we ever need to repeat tests, and
• c) that it is sufficiently popular amongst DIY ebike conversions to be of value to have listed.