Group Buy: Dow Kokam LiPo Cells

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Group Buy: Dow Kokam LiPo Cells

Postby FFR Trikes » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:08 pm


All orders must be confirmed and paid for by noon on Friday!!


Update: please note that $1/watt-hour pricing is only available on cells 16Ah and larger!!

Here's the updated stock status from Dow Kokam as of this morning.


8Ah HP (SLPB75106100): 8-10 weeks $49.82
13Ah HP (SLPB6205130h): 8-10 weeks $67.33
16Ah HP (SLPB78205130H): In Stock $59.20
25Ah HE (SLPB60216216): In Stock $92.50
31Ah HP (SLPB78216216H) In Stock $114.70
100Ah HP (SLPB80460330): In Stock $370
200Ah HE (SLPB160460330H): 13-15 weeks $740

Here's the status on the packs we plan to build:
22.2V 6S 8Ah High Power-Uncertain due to price change
22.2V 6S 13Ah High Power-Uncertain due to price change
22.2V 6S 16Ah High Power- Definitely building
22.2V 6S 25Ah High Energy- Definitely building
22.2V 6S 31Ah High Power- Definitely building

If you'd like us to build the packs for you, we're charging $100 per 6S pack for the build.
These packs can be connected in series to meet your desired voltage.

If you'd like us to build you a pack for you, you must order the cells that your pack will require. Each pack will require 6 cells.

These packs will be built just like the Turnigy 6S packs are, with JST-XH leads so they can be balanced manually, or with a BMS.

Please confirm your order via PM.

Thank you!
Tommy
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Hey Guys,

We're getting ready to place an order from Dow Kokam USA, we'll soon be stocking their cells. We'd like to gauge interest to see which cells everyone is most interested in, so we're putting a preliminary group buy together.

Dow Kokam makes some of the best cells in the industry, they're currently powering Motoczysz's motorcycles (2010 and 2011 Isle of Man TT Winner), and the White Zombie (Worlds fastest street-legal electric car), and future FFR trikes.

One of the standout features of the cells is their cycle life, 1200 cycles at 100% DOD, and 3000 cycles at 80% DOD on their 25Ah High energy cell. Energy density is 165 wh/kg on that cell. One of the biggest advantages with these over the Turnigy and Zippy packs is cycle life.

Also, they're available in a wide variety of sizes, ranging from 5Ah to 200Ah cells. That means that for folks setting up larger packs, it's often possible to build simple series packs, without the need to parallel multiple cells.

Here's the full range of cells we can order, many of them are currently in stock in the US warehouse, but not all. 6-8 week lead on cells that aren't in stock. http://www.dowkokam.com/cell-specifications.php If anyone needs full spec sheets, just PM me and I'll send them over, as not all full spec sheets are available from that list.

Energy cells:
Image

Power cells:
Image


MSRP is typically $1300/kWh. We haven't settled on a price for the cells we'll stock yet, but it will likely be around $1200/kWh. We'll be doing this group buy at $1000/kWh.

A nice setup for many systems is a 12S 16Ah cell. Cells are 3.7V nominal, so 3.7*16= $59 per 16Ah cell.

Here's a spec sheet on the 31Ah High Power cell:
Image

Here's a spec sheet on the 25Ah High Energy Cell:
Image

All of their cells can handle a 2C charge, some can handle 3C. That means you can dump some serious charge current into these for fast charging, if you have the appropriate supply.

We'll be building 22.2V 13Ah High Power, 22.2V 16Ah High Power, and possibly 22.2V 25Ah High Energy packs, depending on which cells folks are most interested in. Packs will be wired with JST-XH 6S balancing leads, so layout will be very similar to the Turnigy 6S 5000mah packs folks are used to.

We will be placing the order February 17th.

Tommy



(moderator edit: moved this from "ebike non hub motor drives" :? forum to "battery technology" forum)
Last edited by FFR Trikes on Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:57 pm, edited 15 times in total.
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Re: Group Buy: Dow Kokam LiPo Cells

Postby Whiplash » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:36 pm

WOW, that's some pretty cool stuff there, I would hope to see the price stay around the 1000/KWH personally to keep it closer to the turningy stuff, but I really like the idea of being able to have a simple series pack! it looks like a 40ah 44.4v pack would only weigh around 25lbs! That's pretty amazing! I am going to be needing some of these when I am ready to build my new bike, so I hope you keep them in stock! I am very interested in the 25-40 AH stuff myself!

I am amazed at how light these are, I think my 15AH pack weighs around 9lbs and I can have almost double that for 13ish pounds? It must be the fact that there is less puch material since there is just one big cell instead of three small ones.. Very cool stuff indeed!
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

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Re: Group Buy: Dow Kokam LiPo Cells

Postby neptronix » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:08 pm

Weight is just a tad heavier than lipo, it seems.. lighter than A123 pouch though. The cycle life will justify the cost, and i bet the safety is improved as well. For a frequent commuter, this is all the best things about lifepo4 with much better weight/size attributes. The low C rates are fine if you are running lower power or have a big pack; 20AH or more.

Thanks for working on bringing these to market. best of luck to you with your sale :D
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Re: Group Buy: Dow Kokam LiPo Cells

Postby Nuts&Volts » Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:55 pm

This is some pretty cool news. I would say the 15 to 40Ah size and maybe the 60Ah would be my choice. However the price is pretty high. But for those that want quality cells you will definitely give them a very good place to choose from. Personal I like the 31 to 40Ah high energy cells.
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Re: Group Buy: Dow Kokam LiPo Cells

Postby recumpence » Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:38 pm

8)

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Re: Group Buy: Dow Kokam LiPo Cells

Postby RWP » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:13 pm

This sounds very interesting...my ignorance asks the following question(s):

What kind of charger is required for say a 48v 20Ah pack, a 72v 20Ah pack and or a 100v 20Ah pack?

What kind of charger is required for say a 48v 40Ah pack, a 72v 40Ah pack and a 100v 40Ah pack?

Thanks,
Roy
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Re: Group Buy: Dow Kokam LiPo Cells

Postby Hugues » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:43 am

I bumped into these cells yesterday through the elmoto.net forum, they have a nice comparison list of most cells and must say the Kokam score pretty good in terms of wh per liter (volume):
http://mabula.tangram.dnsalias.net/battcomp/cell_stats

I'm thinking about building a motorbike and space is an issue. GBS cells from ELitepower barely fit in the frame,
so i'd be interested in the Kokam High Power 200ah, SLPB160460330H, would need 27 of them for 96V.

But some questions come to my mind:
- how to assemble 27 cells to be sure they support vibration
- how to weld the tabs together easily, especially we talk about 200-300 amps here
- surely need BMS on this, or some protection

so if they could come already assembled, with BMS, that would be great. Kokam seem to produce cell containers and BMS to judge by their web site...
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Re: Group Buy: Dow Kokam LiPo Cells

Postby wojtek » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:48 am

Hugues wrote:so if they could come already assembled, with BMS, that would be great. Kokam seem to produce cell containers and BMS to judge by their web site...


they do, but they wont offer them assembled for individual customers - only if bulk ordered.
and the price is veery high for assembling.. i bet if you can assemble it yourself the size could possibly be smaller and weight lower.
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Re: Group Buy: Dow Kokam LiPo Cells

Postby recumpence » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:58 am

Guys,

Just to give you a heads up on this group buy;

Tommy spent a lot of time getting setup as a dealer for Kokam. They went back and forth for a long time on this and, after long last, FFR is a Kokam dealer now. He is really doing a great thing offering this group buy to you guys. This is, essentially, dealer cost on these cells. He is doing this to get his innitial order volume up and to give you guys a break knowing that the ES community is on the cutting edge. If I can sell a couple more drives in the next couple weeks, I will be on this group buy myself.

I know these are not as ckeap as the Hobby King lipos we have been running. But, if you keep the depth of discharge above 80% (20% left in the pack), they are good for 3,000 to 4,000 recharges. That is absolutely insane!

This is really good news for us.........

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Re: Group Buy: Dow Kokam LiPo Cells

Postby Whiplash » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:27 am

Wow! That's incredible! That literally would be a lifetime pack for most bike applications! I wonder if these are the same cells they use in the Zero bikes?

Hey Luke, what so you say here? A simple nod will do ;-)
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

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Re: Group Buy: Dow Kokam LiPo Cells

Postby neptronix » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:39 am

Recumpence, thanks for the info. So these are not backdoor cells with limited supply like the A123... can you confirm this, FFR trikes?
ES facebook group: http://facebook.com/#!/home.php?sk=group_125035107565566&ap=1

The all-arounder: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The girlfriend bike: 350W front MAC on a 700c Trek.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB
The Bus: ??? on a 'da bomb' cargo bike frame

Pro-tips for noobs: Avoid BMS Battery like the plague | Charge RC Lipos to 4.15v, stop discharging at 3.5-3.6v | Use torque plates/arms! | Rear mounted hubs are always best
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Re: Group Buy: Dow Kokam LiPo Cells

Postby parabellum » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:41 am

What chemistry is it exactly?
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Re: Group Buy: Dow Kokam LiPo Cells

Postby Hugues » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:48 am

parabellum wrote:What chemistry is it exactly?


based on this web page,
http://mabula.tangram.dnsalias.net/battcomp/cell_info

depending on the model, they use LiFePO4 or LiPo
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Re: Group Buy: Dow Kokam LiPo Cells

Postby neptronix » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:05 pm

lipo is just another word for a pouch cell ( lithium polymer ). For example, the prismatic cells that a ping or A123 20AH battery comes in are in Lipo format.

Lithium ion is even more vague.

Just FYI so that nobody gets confused.
ES facebook group: http://facebook.com/#!/home.php?sk=group_125035107565566&ap=1

The all-arounder: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The girlfriend bike: 350W front MAC on a 700c Trek.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB
The Bus: ??? on a 'da bomb' cargo bike frame

Pro-tips for noobs: Avoid BMS Battery like the plague | Charge RC Lipos to 4.15v, stop discharging at 3.5-3.6v | Use torque plates/arms! | Rear mounted hubs are always best
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Re: Group Buy: Dow Kokam LiPo Cells

Postby ohzee » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:09 pm

Anyone buying these cells is still on the hook for making their own packs correct ? Like you cant' also buy some handy
dandy way to assemble a pac with the cells you buy.

Sorry for my newb question , but I honestly was not 100%.

Next battery I invest in is going to be pouch cells I will just need someone to make it nice and easy for me.
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Re: Group Buy: Dow Kokam LiPo Cells

Postby RWP » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:22 pm

Can anyone help with the charger technology for these cells?
Thanks, Roy
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Re: Group Buy: Dow Kokam LiPo Cells

Postby Ypedal » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:23 pm

What i personally want to know, if expected shelf/calendar life.. if kept within spec at all times ( hvc, lvc ) and only used 100 cycles per year, how many years can one expect these cells to last before they give up due to age ?
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Re: Group Buy: Dow Kokam LiPo Cells

Postby neptronix » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:32 pm

RWP wrote:Can anyone help with the charger technology for these cells?
Thanks, Roy


Anything that works for 3.6-3.8v nominal charges would be fine. If you run RC Lipo, Konions, etc. ,All your charging equipment will work.

The only special attention that will be required is - what is the max charge voltage on these? If you are using a RC Lipo charger that insists on charging to 4.2v/cell, and these want 4.10v/cell or 4.15v/cell, then that's a problem.

If you have a bulk charger, you will need to adjust the top charge voltage for that reason as well.

Also, what is the C rate for charge? we do not know this - but you will have to account for that is well. Most chemistries can be charged at at least 1C, i'm sure these can be charged at 1C as well, but we need to know for sure.
ES facebook group: http://facebook.com/#!/home.php?sk=group_125035107565566&ap=1

The all-arounder: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The girlfriend bike: 350W front MAC on a 700c Trek.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB
The Bus: ??? on a 'da bomb' cargo bike frame

Pro-tips for noobs: Avoid BMS Battery like the plague | Charge RC Lipos to 4.15v, stop discharging at 3.5-3.6v | Use torque plates/arms! | Rear mounted hubs are always best
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Re: Group Buy: Dow Kokam LiPo Cells

Postby Hugues » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:40 pm

neptronix wrote:...
Also, what is the C rate for charge? we do not know this - but you will have to account for that is well. Most chemistries can be charged at at least 1C, i'm sure these can be charged at 1C as well, but we need to know for sure.


specs for these Kokam cells can be found on this page:
http://mabula.tangram.dnsalias.net/battcomp/cell_info

click on the kokam cell you want, the specs from Kokam will open, for example:
http://kokam.com/product/product_pdf/hi ... _Grade.pdf

max charge amps and voltage are given
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Re: Group Buy: Dow Kokam LiPo Cells

Postby recumpence » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:44 pm

They are 2c or 3c charge capable.

FFR should chime in soon. I can tell you, from my research, these are the best cells on the market for EV use, period. If you go to Metricmind.com and look at his no compromises EV, these are the cells he is using. AFAIK, they are exactly the same voltage as typical Lipo (50.4 volt full charge for 12S). Tom from FFR can confirm this.

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Re: Group Buy: Dow Kokam LiPo Cells

Postby neptronix » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:54 pm

Got it. Looks like 1 or 2C, depending on the cell.
I think they do not have all the cells listed on the site, but that data is enough.

Discharge rating seems to vary according to Dow Kokam's specs.

Looks like these are 3.7v nominal and go down to 2.7v/cell. The cliff is probably lower for this chemistry and more capacity is located down in the lower voltages.

I'd love to see a discharge graph. We can only make assumptions right now.

http://www.dowkokam.com/tech-cells.htm

"Best-in-class operational life (10+ years)" - ooh, nice :)

"Made with advanced nickel metal cobalt technology, Dow Kokam battery cells are designed with a patented Z-fold process that ensures precision stacking of the electrodes giving your battery cells lower heat generation and improved lifetime."

There you go, it's NMC.
ES facebook group: http://facebook.com/#!/home.php?sk=group_125035107565566&ap=1

The all-arounder: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The girlfriend bike: 350W front MAC on a 700c Trek.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB
The Bus: ??? on a 'da bomb' cargo bike frame

Pro-tips for noobs: Avoid BMS Battery like the plague | Charge RC Lipos to 4.15v, stop discharging at 3.5-3.6v | Use torque plates/arms! | Rear mounted hubs are always best
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Re: Group Buy: Dow Kokam LiPo Cells

Postby Hugues » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:55 pm

recumpence wrote:They are 2c or 3c charge capable.

...
Matt


not all types, some are rated 1C for charge,
again, see the kokam specs sheet, post above
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Re: Group Buy: Dow Kokam LiPo Cells

Postby neptronix » Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:04 pm

I found an interesting Dow Kokam document written by FMA - dated back to the early 2000's. The cells are probably quite different than in 2003-2004, but it's an interesting read.

http://ygdes.com/LiIon/technique/Kokam_LiPo.pdf

It's funny that they mention the 'zone of temptation' on page 44, it's what we call the lipo cliff here on the forums.

When using LiPo packs, we recommend that you:
„ Set the cut-off above 2.5V, or nearer 3V in most situations.
„ Avoid designing your pack so that it has to operate at the maximum allowable discharge
rate.
„ Stay out of the “zone of temptation.”


Hah! FMA wrote the book on lipo management before we even knew what lipo was.

Visit page 38 for a discharge graph of one of their older cells. It has the same cliff and hump near 4-3.9v as turnigy/zippy RC lipo, kinda funny.

Image

^-- 20C 5AH 5S Zippy RC lipo

Big kudos goes to whoever can find a discharge graph of their more recent cells.
Last edited by neptronix on Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ES facebook group: http://facebook.com/#!/home.php?sk=group_125035107565566&ap=1

The all-arounder: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The girlfriend bike: 350W front MAC on a 700c Trek.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB
The Bus: ??? on a 'da bomb' cargo bike frame

Pro-tips for noobs: Avoid BMS Battery like the plague | Charge RC Lipos to 4.15v, stop discharging at 3.5-3.6v | Use torque plates/arms! | Rear mounted hubs are always best
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Re: Group Buy: Dow Kokam LiPo Cells

Postby parabellum » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:15 pm

what kind of lipo? lico, limn, other?
edit: thanks david, got it nmc. :)
Last edited by parabellum on Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Group Buy: Dow Kokam LiPo Cells

Postby Nuts&Volts » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:17 pm

I believe they are NCM chemistry
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