Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

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Re: Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

Postby zukster » Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:00 pm

amberwolf wrote:Those older "bullets" look pretty much like the ones on the 12V wiring harness I'm using on CrazyBike2, salvaged from an '80s Honda scooter.


Ya, but where can you get them? They don't have them at "The Source"/"Radio Shack", or Interior Electronics here in Vancouver. Actually Lee's on Main might... I resorted to stripped down banana jacks last night but they're too long. They're about half the diameter of an Anderson connector though.

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Re: Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

Postby amberwolf » Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:12 pm

The ones from my Honda scooter harness are not from or for "electronics" but rather automotive use. So you'd want to look at automotive places around you to see if they carry spares. If not, you can probably find them on the web.

Just remember, they were designed for low currents and low voltages, and in my experience they deform easily and very easily lose their tension in holding onto each other. The bullet part doesn't have any springs in it, and is solid, so the outer barrel is the only "springy" part, and once it is no longer round it makes poor connections for any real current passing thru it.

So I would not use them for any current-carrying connector, like phase or battery. They're ok for halls or brakes or throttle, etc., though.


Banana plugs have a similar problem: they're also not made for high currents, and it's a fair bet that the springs in them are going to get unspringy once heated. Thy may not heat up, but if they do, it just makes a spiral of problems as they heat and unspringy and then have worse conenction and higher resistanc and more heat, etc., Same as the automotive bullets. I've had problems with numerous banana plugs just on test equpment like voltmeters, where almost no current ever passes thru them, and no plug/unplug cycles, as the springs just seem to collapse and no longer hold the plug in the jack.


So if you are looking for a higher current bullet type of connection, you may want to look into the ones used for RC stuff. Ebikes.ca / Grin probably has something, since you are in Vancouver you could pick up at their shop.
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Re: Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

Postby teklektik » Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:15 pm

I spent a fair amount of time recently looking for the old familiar pointy-head bullet connectors but they seem to have fallen out of favor. As far as I could determine, they have been replaced with a bigger, round-nose bullet...

I'd be interested if you locate a source for the retro variety.
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Re: Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

Postby Sacman » Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:25 pm

Car Stereo Installers use those bullet connections all the time (I know because I used to be one). 8)
But they use the blue and red connectors jacketted with the hard plastic boot (instead of the clear rubber boot which will deteriorate and crumble over time). The red connectors are for thinner 18-22 gauge wire, the blue is for medium 14-16 gauge wire.

You can get them in bulk for cheap at Sonic Electronix:
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/cat_m38_ ... ctors.html

Just make sure you have a set of good crimpers to have strong and solid connections. :wink:
Last edited by Sacman on Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

Postby zukster » Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:27 pm

amberwolf wrote:The ones from my Honda scooter harness are not from or for "electronics" but rather automotive use. Just remember, they were designed for low currents and low voltages, and in my experience they deform easily and very easily lose their tension in holding onto each other.


They've worked okay on my Bafang 20amp and less ebikes for a few years now, but they don't get unplugged and plugged much. Once the cable is run to the motor, I shrink tube them to make sure they stay connected and that the connection it good. They make for a small cable bunch running back to the motor. That's why I like them. I hope I have decent results with the modified bananas now. Will report back later after I get some time with them.

I haven't seen RC stuff quite like these automotive connectors other than the 4mm bananas. Ebikes.ca just has Andersons. So the search goes on.
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Re: Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

Postby zukster » Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:29 pm

Sacman wrote:Car Stereo Installers use those bullet connections all the time


Thanks for the clue. I'll check it out. My large 30 amp 12 fet Infineon controller came with 12 awg versions of these connectors, so I know they're out there somewhere.

Edit: Those aren't the same. http://www.sonicelectronix.com/cat_m38_i342_house-brand-bullet-connectors.html

Those are standard bullet connectors. The other ones are brass and have little green boots to slide over them once connected.
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Re: Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

Postby Sacman » Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:56 pm

My appologies... until now I didn't see your pics of these with green boot posted on the previous page. The wiring that comes with most car stereo speakers have those on the ends that go to the head unit or amp. We used to have cars that came in with sound system problems and a good percentage was due to those connectors shorting out. Mainly because that clear rubber boot would dry up, crack and fall apart. So we used to cut them off and use standard bullet connectors. I hope that green boot is made of better material these days.

zukster wrote: I'd love to find some of these connectors that come with the older Bafangs and Infineons. See pics below.

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Re: Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

Postby teklektik » Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:11 pm

zukster wrote:
Sacman wrote:Car Stereo Installers use those bullet connections all the time

Edit: Those aren't the same. Those are standard bullet connectors.


Yep - these are the 'new' standard bullets. Good try though, Sacman...

It's really odd - the old ones used to be everywhere - auto, hardware, electronics - peculiar that they became so universally extinct so suddenly.
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Re: Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

Postby atom1025 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:44 pm

So I got everything hooked up but the hvc board. Going to try and explain this as best as I can. Can't post pics.

So I have Anderson connectors on the pack. Its a 15s2p. Three boards.

The "only" parallel connection is on the boards through the balance leads.

There's two positive outputs and two negative outputs. I want one set to go to controller and the other to charge with.

Does the main outputs have to be paralleled as well? I could see it being required for a amp hungry setup but I will average 20 amps with burst to 35.

I just don't want a bunch Anderson y harness in my box. I can make a jumper between the wires but that's ghetto.
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Re: Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

Postby jonescg » Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:22 am

Just a thought - if these little guys draw so little current, are they susceptible to high voltage or high current interference? I mean, I'll have some serious voltages on my pack, so would the balance wires simply act like giant antennae and screw things up? There's not a lot of signal to noise in this environment... :?:
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Re: Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

Postby methods » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:37 am

jonescg wrote:Just a thought - if these little guys draw so little current, are they susceptible to high voltage or high current interference? I mean, I'll have some serious voltages on my pack, so would the balance wires simply act like giant antennae and screw things up? There's not a lot of signal to noise in this environment... :?:


Ok - I just got back. I have not seen your PM yet but I will get to them soon.

Here is the deal.... first off I can definitely support your large pack. Each board is good for 6 cells and you can hook as many in series as you like. I already have 2 customers running well over 350V for extreme motorcycle applications

btw: How are you soldering those big copper blocks without overheating the cell tabs? You getting any puffing?

anyway...
These boards do not suffer from the noise issues that many systems do because they are so simple and isolated. Each channel is nothing more than a single detector chip that drives an opto for HVC and an opto for LVC. I am talking simple... each channel attaches only to one cell - the fact that there are 6 on a board is arbitrary. So each channel has a single tiny detector that hooks up to the + and - of that cell. It then drives a pair of photo diodes - simple. The daisy chain section has galvanic isolation (not DC isolation, but AC and DC isolation) from the cell chain so you can make it as long as you need.

This system was developed for the TTXGP (thats why there are 8 JST taps) as were my three full BMS systems... which are WAY more noise sensitive than these boards and have not had false trigger LVC issues. These have a low quiescent current because they are of a good design, not because I am running large inline resistances. I can not absolutely grantee that you wont create noise that could cause an LVC glitch - but what I can say is that I have supported a bike at the TTXGP and there is no way those inspection guys could EVER test whether your LVC is actually connected to your throttle :wink:

SO - the rules are the rules right.
Nobody is currently offering anything simpler than this for HVC and LVC (that I know of)
I am 99% confident that you will never see a false LVC

I suggest you buy my boards and run them. If on your first run you think my boards are triggering LVC glitches on your throttle than just unplug the throttle tap. I would then of course offer you a 100% refund and I will pay the shipping. Fair?

Since these are ultra low power boards I would suggest building them into your pack - as close to the cells as possible - but if you must hang them out on a long antenna I guess that will work. There is nearly no current floating up those lines so they will be as good as a 4 wire measurement. I would be more worried about blowing out channels than having them false trigger.... My intuition is that for your pack (on a super long balance harness) I would want to strap each channel with a TVS diode... but that would kill the ultra low power status.

So yea - I am pretty confident that I can handle your application - but I am not super excited about your long balance tap idea.

We also have a 400V charge controller in the works - just have not had time to do any testing.

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Re: Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

Postby methods » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:47 am

atom1025 wrote:So I got everything hooked up but the hvc board. Going to try and explain this as best as I can. Can't post pics.

So I have Anderson connectors on the pack. Its a 15s2p. Three boards.

The "only" parallel connection is on the boards through the balance leads.

There's two positive outputs and two negative outputs. I want one set to go to controller and the other to charge with.

NO! These high power connections MUST be connected at the ends of the pack - at a very minimum. Ideally they would be connected at each group of 5 cells, but connecting them at the end is fine. It is NOT ok to run the charger into one pair and the discharge into another.

Does the main outputs have to be paralleled as well? I could see it being required for a amp hungry setup but I will average 20 amps with burst to 35.

Ok - now that I have screamed above... yes... technically it will work but don't even think about doing it. Think about it bro - if you are discharging at 20A then 5Ah will be coming from one bank and 5Ah from the other right? How do you propose the 5Ah of energy get from one bank to the other? It could only go through the balance taps right? So if you are discharging at 20A that means that you will blow 10Ah in 30 minutes - so... in 30 minutes you will have to pull 5Ah through those taps - which means you will have to pull it at a rate of 10Ah right. So... that is not a good plan when all you have to do is solder two 10awg wires at either end of your pack - or make a clever little Y adapter.

I just don't want a bunch Anderson y harness in my box. I can make a jumper between the wires but that's ghetto.


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Re: Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

Postby zukster » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:45 pm

HVC Breaker Board used as an LVC power cut-off from the battery pack to controller test ride went well.

Setup:

2 x 6S Zippy 4000 mAH Lipo Batteries from HobbyKing
2 x LVC boards
1 Breaker Board
Cute 100 Rear 201 rpm for 135mm drop out
KU63 15A Sensorless or Hall Sensor Controller. Good to about 15S/63V I think.

For this to work I wired the LVC 5V, signal, and ground from an LVC board (what you normally would wire into your throttle) to the Breaker Board LVC 5V, signal, and ground. In fact, it was pretty easy to modify one of the jumper cables Methods provided to do this. You can pop the pins out with a little flat jewelers screwdriver by pressing down the tabs that hold the pins in their slots. Then you can arrange them in the other slots so the 5V, signal, and ground all match up when you plug in the cable from the LVC to the Breaker board. Also for this to work you have to hook up the battery connections to the side of the Breaker board marked "Charger," because in this usage they are the "Source" of power, and then you hook up the "Battery" marked side of the board to your controller, because it is being fed the power. I think Methods said that his gut feeling was that it would work okay to something like 30 amps/100 volts this way., but that he hadn't tested it. With my BMSbattery.com KU63 controller, I'm only at 15 amps and 50.4 volts pack voltage max off the charger, so well under this estimate.

My test went well but use this idea at your own risk.

On the test bench the LVC triggered the Breaker board very accurately withing 0.1 volts of 3.0. With very little load, the battery cell that triggered it recovered to 3.05 after. Reset button worked fine to reset the board. On the road under heavy load, the breaker triggered as expected and the cell recovered to well over 3.20 volts. On the flats with a small load (a quarter throttle), the cell recovered to 3.15 volts after the Breaker was tripped. This is perfect. Thanks Method, for the well thought out thresholds you chose.

If I hit the breaker under a heavy load, I have the reset momentary button sticking out so I can reset and save a bit of juice for later if needed. My cell recovered to around 4.35 volts when I tested it under heavy load, so there's a bit of energy left in the pack that can still be used without killing the cells too bad. Like the last hill home or something :)

Here is a picture of my pretty little pack. What I like about this approach is that I can throw the pack into my trailer as a back up battery without having to wire a throttle cut-off cable all the way up to the controller. Or, I can build a second little pack that can be thrown in a back pack as a spare. When its time to switch, there is only the power cable to have to unplug and plug in again. For bikes that have the batteries attached full time, I don't see any reason for doing this as you just need the throttle retard cable.

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Re: Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

Postby methods » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:02 pm

Nice write up. I always like to see someone hack something for their own purpose (though it makes me nervous as hell when it is my stuff they are hacking :mrgreen: )

For the record - I do not suggest that anyone else try this. If you do, your fate is in your own hands. He is clearly a gangster... so tread lightly if you follow in his footsteps.

That said - it would be pretty easy too defeat the latching aspect of breaker so that it just comes back on when the HVC condition clears if you want.... By shorting a pin you can set it up so that the LVC opto just shorts out the zener diode that holds up the gate voltage for the fet. Currently, the circuit actually opens a relay to latch the condition - but that does not have to happen.

The HVC has a 1.2mS hysteresis but the LVC is pretty much instantaneous - so it is even possible that it might work like a "soft" limiter.

And stop driving your cells down to 3.0V :lol:
You are a bad man for doing this

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Re: Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

Postby zukster » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:25 pm

methods wrote:though it makes me nervous as hell when it is my stuff they are hacking :mrgreen: )


What was the number of your lawyer, just-in-case :mrgreen:

methods wrote:And stop driving your cells down to 3.0V :lol:
You are a bad man for doing this


Bad boys, bad boys, watcha gonna do, watcha gonna do when they come for you :mrgreen: :mrgreen: I should be ashamed :oops: I need to go to a Lipo punishment jail cell (no pun intended).

Actually, I don't have a CA and I have a controller that I can't program the LVC, so it'll have to do. We'll see how the cells are in a few months.
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Re: Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

Postby zukster » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:40 pm

methods wrote:That said - it would be pretty easy too defeat the latching aspect of breaker so that it just comes back on when the HVC condition clears if you want.... By shorting a pin you can set it up so that the LVC opto just shorts out the zener diode that holds up the gate voltage for the fet. Currently, the circuit actually opens a relay to latch the condition - but that does not have to happen.


You mean so you don't have to hit the reset button?
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Re: Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

Postby atom1025 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:20 pm

Thanks Methods for the quick service, prompt response times, great advice and most of all thanks for going out of your way to make these available to us meatheads.

Everything is hooked up and running great!

Adam

PS Yes I paralleled the main leads.
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Re: Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

Postby jonescg » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:25 pm

methods wrote:btw: How are you soldering those big copper blocks without overheating the cell tabs? You getting any puffing?
-methods


With two 80 W red-hot soldering irons dumping heat into the block and having lots of pressure from above to ensure a good connection is made. Then when it's settled I dab a sponge in ice water onto the copper to take the last of the back heat out. My pre-build thread has some video. In my opinion, this is the only way to draw high currents from LiPo. When you think about it - the tab is the bit that gets hot under high discharge. Where can that heat get sunk to? Without a good lump of copper, that heat will go straight back into the cell, which is not good. Also, since this will be sealed in a box, it won't get a chance to cool down. So over-specing is the only way to ensure nothing gets hot.

No puffing, no changes in performance to date (I haven't done heavy discharge testing yet - a 10 kW kettle is hard to make you know!) but a dead short across a 1s3p setup has no difficulty drawing 350 amps, and everything is still ice cold.
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Re: Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

Postby jonescg » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:14 am

OK three last questions before I part with my money (>$50 x 36 = $1800 :cry: )

1.
Is it possible to mix and match 6s, 5s and 4s units? Remember, I'm not doing any of that parallel harness crap. I have 6 blocks of 13s and 6 blocks of 15s. The 3 of the 5s guys would work fine for the 15s blocks, but I would need to use some combination of 5s units and a 4s for the other blocks.

2.
Why are there 7 wire pigtails being used to daisychain the boards together? If the boards are to be joined in series, wouldn't you just need one loop of a single strand? I'm not getting this bit.

3.
I don't want a throttle retard (I'm already one of them). I want it to simply sound a buzzer or illuminate an LED. Can this be done?

Oh, why not, I'll throw another question in while I'm at it :D If I pay you and your lackey enough, will you do a run of 13s and 15s boards? :mrgreen:
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Re: Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

Postby methods » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:17 pm

Yes - when a cell is below 3.0V it will cut your discharge current by opening the fet. When the cell floats back up, it will allow you to go again. No latching.

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zukster wrote:
methods wrote:That said - it would be pretty easy too defeat the latching aspect of breaker so that it just comes back on when the HVC condition clears if you want.... By shorting a pin you can set it up so that the LVC opto just shorts out the zener diode that holds up the gate voltage for the fet. Currently, the circuit actually opens a relay to latch the condition - but that does not have to happen.


You mean so you don't have to hit the reset button?
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Re: Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

Postby zukster » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:33 pm

methods wrote:Yes - when a cell is below 3.0V it will cut your discharge current by opening the fet. When the cell floats back up, it will allow you to go again. No latching.


Good to know but I prefer the reset button. I'm going to use a bunch of your breaker boards for speed control battery cut-offs for electric wheelchairs for the special needs senior citizens group in my area. I wouldn't want the power circuit kicking back in again once they got going to fast. Getting nervous yet? :mrgreen:

Seriously though, for my Son's ebike, if I use the breaker board method to cut off power under LVC, I'd rather the power stay off once its latched.
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Re: Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

Postby methods » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:36 pm

jonescg wrote:OK three last questions before I part with my money (>$50 x 36 = $1800 :cry: )

1.
Is it possible to mix and match 6s, 5s and 4s units? Remember, I'm not doing any of that parallel harness crap. I have 6 blocks of 13s and 6 blocks of 15s. The 3 of the 5s guys would work fine for the 15s blocks, but I would need to use some combination of 5s units and a 4s for the other blocks.

We can do a custom run for you. Since you don't need all the JST-XH-7 headers, we can work out a cheaper assembly method for yours. If you want to solder directly to the boards (i.e. no headers and no JST at all) I can probably drop the price significantly as that is quite a bit of the labor of 36 boards.

2.
Why are there 7 wire pigtails being used to daisychain the boards together? If the boards are to be joined in series, wouldn't you just need one loop of a single strand? I'm not getting this bit.

First, they are 6 wire jumpers, not 7 wires. 3 of the wires are for HVC. 3 of the wires are for LVC.

LVC_Ground
LVC_Signal
LVC_5V

Normally you would only have LVC_Ground and LVC_Signal for an open collector output right? Well these are special high-sensitivity (aka low power) optocouplers that have a darlington pair on the output. This means that by supplying an external 5V you can greatly improve the sensitivity and performance. Since most people are tying into the throttle, 5V, Signal, and Ground are already available and it plugs right in.

HVC_Ground
HVC_Signal
HVC_5V

This is a totally isolated set of signals. There is no electrical connection between the HVC set and the LVC set - total isolation. There is also total isolation between the LVC/HVC and the pack - total isolation.

So when you speak of a single strand of wire.... how would this work?
Typically the way a system like this works (on nearly all instruments) is that the boards sit OPEN all the time. They are all OPEN and hooked in parallel. If any one board gets triggered, it goes CLOSED and now the circuit conducts.

The absolute minimum that could be used here would be 2 strands of wire, right? One that is ground and one that is signal.

BUT - then your HVC and your LVC would be tied electrically. Since the LVC directly ties into the throttle signals it would be a problem for those who want to do custom stuff with the HVC

So - by your logic I could have used 4 wires in the daisy chains.... but that would lower sensitivity.

Regardless - I would have made them in 6 pin anyway because I already have to buy those in bulk for Balance Jumpers - so it makes more sense to stock a large quantity of one type of cable than smaller quantities of different cables.



3.
I don't want a throttle retard (I'm already one of them). I want it to simply sound a buzzer or illuminate an LED. Can this be done?

Absolutely.

Oh, why not, I'll throw another question in while I'm at it :D If I pay you and your lackey enough, will you do a run of 13s and 15s boards? :mrgreen:


You dont have enough money for that bigshot. I would have to come up with a layout, do the layout, produce the PCB's, populate them, test them.... so you would be spending the same amount ++ hours of my time ++ a PCB run. I am guessing that you dont know that it is the same price to do a PCB run of 3 boards as it is to do a run of 90 boards... so for us to do a run for you the PCB's alone would probably be an extra $300 - $500. My time? Priceless. Say I only charge you for 5 hours, that is another $500. Realistically there is all kinds of hidden bullshit in there that people never consider - including the risk that I make a mistake in the layout, delays with the manufacturer, tooling up to test your unique setup, etc.

Maybe one day....
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Re: Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

Postby dougnutz » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:01 pm

zukster wrote:
methods wrote:Yes - when a cell is below 3.0V it will cut your discharge current by opening the fet. When the cell floats back up, it will allow you to go again. No latching.


Good to know but I prefer the reset button. I'm going to use a bunch of your breaker boards for speed control battery cut-offs for electric wheelchairs for the special needs senior citizens group in my area. I wouldn't want the power circuit kicking back in again once they got going to fast. Getting nervous yet? :mrgreen:

Seriously though, for my Son's ebike, if I use the breaker board method to cut off power under LVC, I'd rather the power stay off once its latched.



Are you are using Lipo of wheelchairs?
"It doesn't take me long to get nothing done."

Rear 2806 9 continent on Trek MB frame
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Re: Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

Postby zukster » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:05 pm

dougnutz wrote:Are you are using Lipo of wheelchairs?


I'm just trying to get a rise out of Method's by dreaming up strange new ways to misuse his breaker board.
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Re: Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

Postby dougnutz » Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:20 pm

"It doesn't take me long to get nothing done."

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