Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

[jonescg]

Hey Methy,

I was thinking when it comes closer to time for me to place my order I will probably go for the iSolder option I want a single 90 degree plug on the bottom for 4S and likewise for the 5S boards (each pack of cells is 9S). But the HVC/LVC stuff can remain completely unsoldered as I can do that myself. If you don't want to put a 90' plug on it, I can do this myself... I guess.

But it's gonna be a few months worth of savings before this happens. I need to order about $7000 worth of LiPo from HK...

[iovaykind]

I'm interested in some of those 4s boards if you've still got them. Tried to read through as much of this thread as possible, but I might've missed some stuff.. I guess I'll just let you know my setup and you can guide me on price. 16s2p setup (10ah) made up of 4s packs.

[methods]

Most folks buy 4S packs to save a few $0.01/wh at the cost of lots of build labor wiring it all together. Although one could use our boards with 4S packs it would be an inefficient use and the added cost would offset the savings you made buying 4S packs.

Example:
3 x 6S = 18S and needs three $50 parallel boards
4 x 4S = 16S and needs four $50 parallel boards

Just not a good match.....

Alternately if ones labor was not worth anything they could build a parallel/series harness to convert the (4*4)S2P into (6+6+4)S2P to use three boards instead of two....

Anyway -> I have 13 or 14 5S boards in stock, 3 6S boards in stock, and although I thought we had some 4S on the production line I think those got converted to 5S and sent off last week.

Parts have been ordered and we have enough PCB's to make about 50 more parallel boards. Once those are gone there will be a dry spell until I get the next version of PCB's finished and tested. This next version wont be much different from the users perspective - just more efficient from the production perspective.

-methods

I'm interested in some of those 4s boards if you've still got them. Tried to read through as much of this thread as possible, but I might've missed some stuff.. I guess I'll just let you know my setup and you can guide me on price. 16s2p setup (10ah) made up of 4s packs.

[zukster]

Most folks buy 4S packs to save a few $0.01/wh at the cost of lots of build labor wiring it all together. Although one could use our boards with 4S packs it would be an inefficient use and the added cost would offset the savings you made buying 4S packs.

Totally agree. I love the simplicity of my 2x6S packs. With the new Zippy Compacts now available in 7S,8S,9S, and 10S, it would be better to make LVC boards for these. For cheap Infineon controller which typically have 63v caps, then 2x7S or 7S+8S is ideal, and for the better ebikes.ca controllers, 2x8S,9S,10S give some nice simple higher power options.

You're down to 3 6S boards? I need 4. Will email you re,

[methods]

The new parts arrived today so we can start the final production run on the 6S boards. I need to test them though since we are changing part numbers so it will be a few days.... These are the "new parts" that will be used on the next PCB version. Interested to see how they perform. They are actually from a "better" manufacturer so I am really curious what we will see.

I am not checking PM's today as I am doing layout. I see a few 6S orders in there so I suspect that we are or will be "sold out". Maybe tonight I will bribe Matthew to convert the 5S panel that is on the cleaning line to 6S to meet demands.


-methods

[methods]

Ok - here is the final count of what is available:

HVC/LVC/Parallel
4S - 8 boards
5S - 4 boards
6S - 27 boards

HVC Breaker
10 in stock, parts to build more

5S & 6S Balance Tap Jumpers and extensions
I got a new shipment... so prices are now back to "reasonable" (not $5 anymore - since I dont have to mod these)

I am getting a lot of hits for folks rushing to build race bikes for the TTXGP this year. Good luck you guys!

The 4S run was just a fluke that we decided to do for fun. That is it... 8pcs... and we have to charge full price for them as a novelty. Matthew had already populated many of the parts to make them 6S so there is really only $3 is savings on them for us.

We have a few one-offs for the adventurous. 2 or 3 of the epoxy boards. Maybe a handful of boards that are "factory re-certified". Etc. I will probably put all of these into an attractive package and sell them as a lot with some other one-off stuff like jumper cables that need re-wiring and maybe a big bag of old balance tap crap we dont use anymore.


I have been steering people away for a couple of weeks due to a shortage of the JST-XH-6 daisy jumpers - but I am back in stock on those... so if I ran you off now would be the time. I am pretty much done with the next revision but I have not even submitted the PCB's yet so there will def be a period of time where we are totally out of stock. Pricing and performance will be the same - though the newer units will have slightly less sensitivity and might require tuning of the retard resistor to work with all controllers.

-methods

[chroot]

Methods- I'll take 8 piece of 4s lvc boards and I can stop by your friend's recycle shop whenever you are available.

[methods]

Methods- I'll take 8 piece of 4s lvc boards and I can stop by your friend's recycle shop whenever you are available.

I actually do not have a shop space in the recycle warehouse anymore - I am about 1 mile away. Email me and we can set up a time - but the boards are just now coming out of the cleaner and will not be ready until later this afternoon at the earliest. Still need to test them But I like to test in batches to limit mistakes so I am finishing up the entire batch right now.

-methods

[amberwolf]

We have a few one-offs for the adventurous. 2 or 3 of the epoxy boards. Maybe a handful of boards that are "factory re-certified". Etc. I will probably put all of these into an attractive package and sell them as a lot with some other one-off stuff like jumper cables that need re-wiring and maybe a big bag of old balance tap crap we dont use anymore.

How much do you think you will want for the lot?

[methods]

For the wolf?
Free!

I will put them in a box for you. Remind me of your address via PM or send me $1 on PayPal so I can print a label.

-methods

[chroot]

Alright, let me know whenever you are ready and I'll come over meet you somewhere. Thanks

Methods- I'll take 8 piece of 4s lvc boards and I can stop by your friend's recycle shop whenever you are available.

I actually do not have a shop space in the recycle warehouse anymore - I am about 1 mile away. Email me and we can set up a time - but the boards are just now coming out of the cleaner and will not be ready until later this afternoon at the earliest. Still need to test them But I like to test in batches to limit mistakes so I am finishing up the entire batch right now.

-methods

[methods]

I finished testing out all the boards and everything is ready to ship.

I can just ship them to you if you want... it would be only 1 day via USPS Priority.
If you want to come over I am around pretty much all day today and tomorrow.

-methods

[SpeedEBikes]

Can you explain the reasoning behind the cutoff threshholds of 3.0V LVC and 4.29V HVC?

I'm guessing the device is intended as a last resort fail safe to prevent destruction of the pack rather than the regular means for terminating either charge or discharge,

Are the cutoffs modifiable? I'd expect a tighter range, say 3.5V LVC to 4.2 HVC would be fine for many like myself who try to keep their batteries in a 3.7 to 4.1 volt operating range and don't want their occaisional screw ups to go too far out of bounds.

[chroot]

Are you available to meet up tomorrow morning after I finish work around 9am? Same place E-Recycle shop for meet up and how it sound to you? Let me know so I'll come down and meet you. Is your phone number still same if so I can text you from my smartphone for letting you know that I am at the place to meet up.

45 dollars each or 50 dollars each for 4s lvc board and what about the HVC charge board with pigtail wires available? I will bring the cash with me.

See ya tomorrow. thanks again...

I finished testing out all the boards and everything is ready to ship.

I can just ship them to you if you want... it would be only 1 day via USPS Priority.
If you want to come over I am around pretty much all day today and tomorrow.

-methods

[amberwolf]

The reasoning and the voltages have been explained a few times in the various threads for this but basically that's what the parts are avaialble in, so no there's not really the option for other voltages.

It is indeed just a failsafe device, last ditch don't-destroy-your-pack kinda thing. For your regular LVC, you'd want to go with a pack LVC on your controller, Cycle Analyst, or whatever else you have on there. Regular HVC is the voltage on your charger--don't set it higher than pack voltage should be, and then it shouldn't overcharge unless there's a balancing problem, and that's the case this system is there for.

Can you explain the reasoning behind the cutoff threshholds of 3.0V LVC and 4.29V HVC?

I'm guessing the device is intended as a last resort fail safe to prevent destruction of the pack rather than the regular means for terminating either charge or discharge,

Are the cutoffs modifiable? I'd expect a tighter range, say 3.5V LVC to 4.2 HVC would be fine for many like myself who try to keep their batteries in a 3.7 to 4.1 volt operating range and don't want their occaisional screw ups to go too far out of bounds.

[methods]

Can you explain the reasoning behind the cutoff threshholds of 3.0V LVC and 4.29V HVC?

3.0V to 4.2V is the commonly accepted range for Lipo. Setting cell level LVC to 3.5V would = fail because you would be bouncing off of LVC under load all the time. I understand the practice of discharging to only 3.5V but that can be done by the user watching voltages. Would not make sense to set hardware limits here. If you really want a limit that high use the CA pack level LVC Limit... no need for cell level protection when so far from cell limts.

The 4.29V comes from the fact that these are 18650 production parts - they were accounting for high internal resistance and the dynamic charge current verses the resting voltage. The reality is that if you were to cut charge at 4.2V under load it would settle to way below 4.2V - so cutting at 4.29V will usually result in a resting voltage of 4.2V. Again this is a situation where the user may choose to under-utilize the capacity of their batteries in order to gain a perceived increase in cycle life... but this can be done by simply setting the charger to a lower voltage. It would never make sense to actually set the hardware limit lower.

These boards are first and foremost developed for the motorcycle racing scene... and you better believe that those guys are getting as many wh into their packs as they can. I have seen many a rider pushing bikes across the finish line. The hesitancy to do deep cycles wears off quick in that community.


I'm guessing the device is intended as a last resort fail safe to prevent destruction of the pack rather than the regular means for terminating either charge or discharge,

The proper method for terminating charge is by setting the charger to the correct voltage for a balanced pack. I dont like the idea of relying on a BMS to terminate charge on a regular basis... this is how fires start. The Battery must be able to be hooked to the charger with no BMS for safe operation at all times.

For LVC -> I never recommend that people empty their packs - so the proper way to do this is to set Pack Level LVC in the CA -> that can cut one off early... but one still has the choice of getting more if they have a few miles to go.

Are the cutoffs modifiable? I'd expect a tighter range, say 3.5V LVC to 4.2 HVC would be fine for many like myself who try to keep their batteries in a 3.7 to 4.1 volt operating range and don't want their occaisional screw ups to go too far out of bounds.

These values are not out of bounds. I think folks have taken this idea WAY too far... Lipo is meant to be run from 3.0V to 4.2V. I have thousands of cycles on RC packs where I run cells down to 2.5V and up to 4.3V over and over and over. I dont buy any of this hype about extended cycles -> the reality is that prices are dropping so quickly that by time one actually gets 3,000 cycles out of a pack... that pack is now totally irrelevant in terms of C rating and power density.

I paid $150 each for the 6S 4.15Ah packs I built my first bike with. They were 15C. Now I can get 20C packs for $40 that are 5Ah. I beat the hell out of those original packs and they are *still running* on another guys bike who I just gave them to.


-methods

[methods]

Good answer, in a lot less words

-methods

The reasoning and the voltages have been explained a few times in the various threads for this but basically that's what the parts are avaialble in, so no there's not really the option for other voltages.

It is indeed just a failsafe device, last ditch don't-destroy-your-pack kinda thing. For your regular LVC, you'd want to go with a pack LVC on your controller, Cycle Analyst, or whatever else you have on there. Regular HVC is the voltage on your charger--don't set it higher than pack voltage should be, and then it shouldn't overcharge unless there's a balancing problem, and that's the case this system is there for.

Can you explain the reasoning behind the cutoff threshholds of 3.0V LVC and 4.29V HVC?

I'm guessing the device is intended as a last resort fail safe to prevent destruction of the pack rather than the regular means for terminating either charge or discharge,

Are the cutoffs modifiable? I'd expect a tighter range, say 3.5V LVC to 4.2 HVC would be fine for many like myself who try to keep their batteries in a 3.7 to 4.1 volt operating range and don't want their occaisional screw ups to go too far out of bounds.

[SpeedEBikes]

Thanks, I just finished reading 12 pages of this thread (been out of the sphere for a while) and didn't see it mentioned.

I've been relying on cell log 8s to provide a programmable high cutoff and low alarm for per cell protection. The biggest downside is a bit of effort to rewire each unit with a more robust alarm connector and add a power switch as the standby load is a bit high. That and I have to make parallel boards for the balance connectors.

The no fuss always on aspect of this setup is appealing, but the cutoff values strike me as the biggest drawback for my purposes.

[Jay64]

Has anyone come up with a way to secure these boards once they are wired to the battery?

[methods]

Velcro on the bottom of the heat shrink is what I have seen Matthew do.
In most cases (for smaller packs) the leads are so short that they are kind of held in place. For a large motorcycle pack like yours I suppose thats not the case.

Rubber band?
Zip Ties?
Kapton Tape?
Contact adhesive?

Kapton tape is nice because it uses a really clean silicone adhesive that leaves no residue, has great electrical characteristics, have a huge temperature range, and is pretty much just sent from heaven. Best tape ever for electronics.

You can get it in many thicknesses and widths - be careful with the thicker tapes as they may want to peel up (they are meant more for short, straight, insulating applications). The super thin stuff holds well across temperature and is cheap.

-methods

[Jay64]

Cool. So it is ok to have the bottom solidly mounted to the battery, even if it is a hard box? I was just worried about possibly damaging the components on the bottom. But if that is not an issue, I'm good.

[methods]

Well...
I suggest that most people cover them with the supplied heat shrink to stop vibration from rubbing-rubbing-rubbing through the silicone conformal coating. I was thinking you would then mount that heat shrink to whatever solid surface you have available.

As far as shock and vibration - I am comfortable with them being mounted directly - though a foam tape could make an incredible difference. I did a lot of shock and vibration testing at my old job and even the thickness of a single slip of paper can incredibly attenuate the peak of a shock profile.

Try and keep the boards dry - that is the most important thing. It is ok if they get wet - but try and dry them out after the race. Standing water is our enemy.

Water = ok
Time = ok
Time + water = fail.

BTW Folks: We are stocked up on the 5S and 6S jumpers and they are $2 each. We have the 6S in 12" and the 5S in 6" and 12". Soon we will have the 6S in 6" as well as 4S in both 6" and 12"

-methods

[Jay64]

Great to hear that these are so robust. I was Treating them like they were a faberge eggs or something.

[methods]

Ha... yea... I regret having to sell them as a raw circuit board. If someone with more talent than myself could show me how to package them in a more clever way I would be all over it.

The Epoxy was just a nightmare

I look to the Chinese all the time for ideas - the RC guys know how to do good robust packaging on the cheap. I like the thick rubbery heat shrink that the BM6 units come in - I have a hundred feet of it but it is too small for these.

The boards are tough - the only reason I would baby them would be to avoid rubbing off the conformal coating. Electrolysis is our only real enemy.

After race season is over if they get the crap kicked out of them I can write up a tutorial on how to re-coat them for added reliability. The US circuit is not that wet though - so I dont think you have that much to worry about. Over in the UK things are different - that awful place is wet and cold and miserable 24/7

-methods

[Kin]

You might not have enjoyed epoxy- would a silicon based clay like http://sugru.com/ be better? You can make a cheaper version http://www.instructables.com/id/How-To- ... ubstitute/
It's basically just gorilla glue, silicon caulk, and corn starch. Might still add a bit of effort to the boards, and I know you want to keep costs down- so maybe not useful.