Custom ACS Flanged Freewheels

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Custom ACS Flanged Freewheels

Postby MotoMel » Wed May 23, 2012 10:46 pm

We had ACS make up a batch of custom flanged freewheels (based on Crossfire) with 5 threaded 5mm holes and 5 unthreaded holes for 5mm screws, so that you can attach unthreaded or threaded chainrings to them. That makes them pretty versatile. If anybody is interested, we can put more info here. Here are a couple of photos:
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Re: Custom ACS Flanged Freewheels

Postby neptronix » Thu May 24, 2012 12:52 am

Please do provide more info! I don't see how you would hook chainrings up to those.. now i am curious.
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Pro-tips for noobs: Charge RC Lipos to 4.15v, stop discharging at 3.5-3.6v | Use torque plates/arms! | Rear mounted hubs are always best
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Re: Custom ACS Flanged Freewheels

Postby MotoMel » Thu May 24, 2012 1:17 pm

:) Hi Neptronix.

Here are 3 different uses of the freewheel with chainrings. (And now I wonder if there is a name other than "chainring" for the steel discs; I have to admit that can confuse me too.)

1. Single steel "chainring", in this case mounted on the left side of the bike and motor driven. Freewheel allows motor and chain to be stationary while cyclist pedals. If the disc-type chainring is threaded, then the unthreaded freewheel holes are utilized; and vice versa.
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Same architecture with smaller "chainring", in this case providing a considerably taller final gear.
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2. Dual steel "chainrings" (one driven by a motor, one driving the rear cluster), mounted on right side of bike for fairly inexpensive setup but losing the usual triple front chainring feature and requiring movement of the motor-chain when pedaling (presumably there would be a freewheel at the motor shaft). Here we can use the non-threaded holes in the freewheel flange if one of the chainrings is threaded. If both chainrings are threaded, then one of them would be drilled out to remove the threads. We used a spacer between the freewheel flange and one of the chainrings to make room for both chains in simultaneous operation.
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3. Triple chainring setup (utilizing custom spider):
The parts, showing a 74/110bcd 5-arm custom spider. The middle chainring is centered over the freewheel flange, while the granny and outer chainring are balanced on either side. Not shown is that more recently we combined the two custom parts into one, so that granny and middle/outer chainrings are attached to a single custom spider.
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How the parts fit together.
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Another view.
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Finally here are the 3 chainrings mounted and fully operable on the right. Here we used a "64"/104bcd 4-arm custom spider but with a custom granny whose inner diameter cleared the freewheel shoulder.
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This is our power integrator, not yet in production, that shows left(motor) and right(cyclist) freewheels, and with a single chainring on the left and a triple on the right. The concentric drive in the BB allows the motor to drive the chainrings through the BB from the left side of the bike without the cyclist having to pedal, and for the cyclist to drive the chainrings from the right side without the motor chain spinning.
Image

The custom freewheels can be had for $15 plus shipping. We're working on making available the custom spider and concentric drive.
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Re: Custom ACS Flanged Freewheels

Postby neptronix » Thu May 24, 2012 1:44 pm

AHA...!
Very cool, guy!! you need a webstore or something along that line ASAP.

I think that a 130mm BCD spider version of this freewheel would be rockin.
ES facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/125035107565566

The all-arounder: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Bafang BBS02 on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB
The Bus: ??? on a 'da bomb' cargo bike frame

Pro-tips for noobs: Charge RC Lipos to 4.15v, stop discharging at 3.5-3.6v | Use torque plates/arms! | Rear mounted hubs are always best
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Re: Custom ACS Flanged Freewheels

Postby neptronix » Thu May 24, 2012 1:47 pm

Then you could use a flip flop hub with something like a 40-60T on the rear to gear down a particularly fast motor, in order to do a rear drive setup.
ES facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/125035107565566

The all-arounder: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Bafang BBS02 on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB
The Bus: ??? on a 'da bomb' cargo bike frame

Pro-tips for noobs: Charge RC Lipos to 4.15v, stop discharging at 3.5-3.6v | Use torque plates/arms! | Rear mounted hubs are always best
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Re: Custom ACS Flanged Freewheels

Postby StudEbiker » Thu May 24, 2012 1:57 pm

Can you post pics of the internals of the freewheel? What watts have you successfully put through them? Have you had any fail? If so, at what power level did they fail? Cool product!
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Re: Custom ACS Flanged Freewheels

Postby MotoMel » Thu May 24, 2012 2:50 pm

Have put 1000 watts through without any apparent issue whatsoever. Simply have not tried anything larger yet. I suspect that a lot of its success at higher wattage will depend on the ramping up that the controller does, so that parts are not slammed.

It has time and again pulled a 320 pound rider/bike combo up 12 percent hills, and then run at 30mph plus on the flats. You have to have a motor that's up to it, though, along with appropriate gearing; I ran a couple of our motors too hard and they are "no longer with us". Holding things together solidly is the most significant reason that we had the 10-holes freewheels made.
Last edited by MotoMel on Thu May 24, 2012 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Custom ACS Flanged Freewheels

Postby StudEbiker » Thu May 24, 2012 3:21 pm

I just meant the internals of the freewheels to see the teeth and pawls.
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Re: Custom ACS Flanged Freewheels

Postby MotoMel » Thu May 24, 2012 4:30 pm

Ooh sorry, StudEbiker. :oops: I misunderstood your interest.

I don't have freewheel internals pics but have seen some in just the last 24 hours on this site (or was it another?) as part of a comparison between brands. Can't look for them right now but will send link if my browser history can lead me in the right direction.
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Re: Custom ACS Flanged Freewheels

Postby StudEbiker » Thu May 24, 2012 4:39 pm

Right, I have seen that thread too, but as this is a new product not offered before, then I don't think this freewheel would be featured in that thread. :wink:

If it has the same internals as a Crossfire then that would be very exciting as that is one tough Freewheel. IIRC though even the ACS FWs had different pawls and teeth from each other.
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Re: Custom ACS Flanged Freewheels

Postby MotoMel » Fri May 25, 2012 2:29 pm

Yes, it's a flanged Crossfire. And to be more specific it is the std Crossfire not the Pro.
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Re: Custom ACS Flanged Freewheels

Postby boostjuice » Mon May 28, 2012 1:39 am

My standard crossfire is holding up fine in freewheel crank service after ~500km of pedalling (including some occasional hard cranking), so they get my vote as an excellent economical alternative to the ENO.
These offered parts are great! and if you will supply the chainring adaptor spiders and twin-axle BB's for a realistic price then you will answer many peoples prayers.
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Re: Custom ACS Flanged Freewheels

Postby MotoMel » Mon May 28, 2012 8:29 am

The Crossfires are available immediately (I'm setting up a store today; for the time being they'll be $15 plus shipping [essentially covers cost]). The spiders can be available in a month or more - price unknown till manufacture and QA. The Coaxial BB's are several months out, and I'm having a couple of production engineers look at making manufacture more affordable while maintaining ruggedness and longevity - current costs are somewhere between 'you gotta be kidding' and 'no way'.

To help me put out the right spiders first, could I ask you guys what BCD (mm bolt circle diameter [you probably already know]) you want on the spider: 4-bolt 64/104 mtn, 5-bolt 74/110 road, or 5-bolt 74/130 road? Would some of you want just a 2-ring setup in the 130?

What size granny (teeth) would you want to run? Would you accept a custom (steel?) granny if size 24T or smaller? (The reason I ask is that the freewheel shoulder definitely interferes with off-the-shelf (OTS) grannies < 26 teeth, and even for a 28T or 30T on a 74mm I found that most OTS grannies require grinding down the chainring bolt tabs that serve primarily cosmetic purposes.

Are some of you willing to dismiss the coaxial BB idea for the moment, and mount a motor drive chainring in place of a granny - all on the RHS (right hand side)? This configuration would be comprised of a standard BB, freewheel crankarms (as in the custom BB there is no integrated spider, but a threaded RHS shoulder instead), the custom ACS right side flanged freewheel, and the custom alloy spider in one of the sizes above? This setup would be markedly less expensive and still allow the motor to drive the chainrings without pedaling, but would mean that pedaling would spin the motor chain and that you would probably want a freewheel at the motor crankshaft. And you also lose the granny gear (or in some cases the outer chainring).

Lastly, two questions regarding the Coaxial BB.

It's presently designed to fit the most common BB shell width of 68mm and, with the freewheeling crankset, has a spindle length of 133mm: does that present a problem for anyone?

And the coaxial nature of our custom BB design requires not just one but two layers of caged needle bearings, and there was no way found to design a sealed bearing arrangement in the space allowed. So unlike modern bearing units, they will require cleaning and re-greasing periodically: how much of a hassle is that for folks, and would that be a show-stopper for them? (It seems to me that builders already get their hands dirty and so wouldn't mind that maintenance every several thousand miles or so.)

Anyway, answers to these question can help me determine the priority of next steps in making this all available.

Hey! This Memorial Day in the states -- but also for those abroad -- remember the vets: those who have perished, those whose minds or bodies are maimed, and those whose lives have become (sometime extra-)ordinary again. May all be honored for their amazing contribution to the ordinary citizens of their countries.

Mel.
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ACS Crossfire Custom 10-hole Flanged Freewheels

Postby MotoMel » Mon May 28, 2012 8:43 pm

ACS custom flanged freewheels with 5 threaded and 5 unthreaded mounting holes are now listed on eBay. Each has 5 threaded and 5 unthreaded holes.
ImageImage
These are unique, sturdy freewheels based on the ACS CrossFire. :arrow: You can get to them with the link http://www.ebay.com/sch/bikemotive/m.html?_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1. The price on the freewheel without mounting hardware will remain at $15 through the end of this month (May), and then get bumped a few dollars to help pay for the eBay listings. The freewheel with mounting hardware will get a similar bump.

(Moderator edit: Moved this from it's own new thread to your already-existing recent thread already in Items-for-sale-new about the same product. Please don't start multiple sale threads for the same item, simply update your existing thread with new posts/info.)
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Re: Custom ACS Flanged Freewheels

Postby SkyknightJohn » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:53 am

I like the idea of the coaxial BB, although costs of 'you gotta be kidding' and 'no way' are not in my budget. I think this could be an elegant solution to, among other things, using hub motors as a mid-drive, with the sprocket fixed to the disc brake mount on the left.
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Re: Custom ACS Flanged Freewheels

Postby MotoMel » Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:24 am

Hi SkyknightJohn!

You're absolutely right about the costs. It's been the hangup on this project for the past several months, and it's why I have engaged some production engineering to figure out simplifications etc. A fair amount of the cost has to do with the hardening and grinding and polishing and tolerances of races and associated surfaces for the needle bearings. (Does anybody in the forum have any experience with these puppies?)

I have had a target price of $249 to 299 (with everything but chainrings, as those can be unique to the installation) on the unit but am finding it challenging to get costs down so it can be offered even in the $449 to 499 range. It has seemed to me that under $300, the cost of the unit would probably be a wash for most builders' on expenses for drive integration -- and be much more certain to work well, look good and be in use more quickly. At the higher range, I'm rather certain that it would still compensate most builders in place of their own time and money, but that many fewer people would jump to it first before spending a lot of their own resources on their own solution.

For the garage/shop engineers in the forum who have their own milling machine and lathe, I have considered offering the plans on a limited basis, so that they could build one-for-themselves in return for building one-for-me. And perhaps some tweaks would come out of that collaboration.

Regarding actual implementation on a bike, it's been suggested that I look to a motor belt drive in place of a chain drive. Do you guys have any reactions to that? (My first reaction was that the belt cannot be resized as can a chain, and so you might not know until installation what size belt is needed on your bike. Of course it is quieter..)

:?

Mel
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Re: Custom ACS Flanged Freewheels

Postby Dingo2024 » Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:42 am

Hi Mel,

nice product

a couple of questions if you dont mind;

is there any side play on the chainrings when bolted up to the freewheel?

is there much noise from the freewheel?

will you ship to the UK and cost please?

thanks

Ian :D
started as a boy, grew into a man....not sure where I am headed now
build thread; viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18130
top speed now stands at 43.9 mph
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Re: Custom ACS Flanged Freewheels

Postby spinningmagnets » Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:09 am

The $15 price on the crossfire FW is quite good for the options you are providing. As to the other prices, the market can be a cruel mistress and you simply must charge whatever will allow you to continue to make your products. A product that only a few can afford is better than a slightly cheaper price that "goes out of business" a couple months later.

As to the BCD of the chainring spider...as an E-bike approaches a speed capability of 30-MPH, many riders want to continue to add pedaling to the mix, and a chainring upgrade is a frequent suggestion. I seem to remember that a 52-Tooth is popular.

"Vuelta" seems to be an affordable supplier of 38T-60T chainrings in 130mm BCD. Should you choose 110-BCD, the chainring suppliers listed here will still be useful...
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=11690#p178009

edit: if you make a spider with both 110-BCD and also 130-BCD holes, a builder who only wanted the 110 holes could easily cut off and file down the 130-BCD tips.
Last edited by spinningmagnets on Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Custom ACS Flanged Freewheels

Postby spinningmagnets » Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:12 am

Played with my Google, turns out the thread mentioned is from our very own Amberwolf!
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=25153&start=60#p389811
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Re: Custom ACS Flanged Freewheels

Postby MotoMel » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:19 am

Hi Ian. Thanks for the comments; it's rare in today's workplace to get appreciation for the work -- it's one of the reasons that I enjoy forums such as this that thrive on collegiality.

Answers to your questions: (I'm assuming that you are inquiring about the freewheels, not the BB Power Integration unit.)

1. Sideplay: There is surprisingly little - I'm measuring 0.5mm or less at the outer circumference of a 52T chainring.
2. Noise: I don't have a db on it, but they are closer to silent than to a noisy rear-wheel freewheel. You'd notice it close-up but it's not remarkable. (I have heard some other crankset freewheels that are so loud that it's hard to hold a conversation near them!)
3. Shipping: YES to UK and the rest of the world. With international shipping, it's the first item of any quantity that costs lots to ship ($20us); subsequent ones are pretty cheap($1.50 each). I just shipped 3 to Germany; either he has several bikes or is sharing (cost-sharing?) with friends or is banking two of them for future use. I've got them listed over at eBay http://www.ebay.com/sch/bikemotive/m.html?_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1 and they should be showing up in the UK. (A note: when current listings expire, I'll be bumping prices by a buck ($1) to begin making up a portion of listing and payment fees.)

Is that complete? Let me know if I can provide more info.

:) Mel.
Last edited by MotoMel on Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Custom ACS Flanged Freewheels

Postby MotoMel » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:34 am

Hey spinningmagnets. Thanks for the links --

The hostelshoppe shows a Vuelta at 60T!! I didn't even know that such large chainrings were commercially available let alone reasonably priced. That's either for major downhillin' or for seriously striding on flatland with huge leg muscles and/or a multi-kilowatt motor pulling hard. (It's bringing to vague recollection one of the land speed records on bicycle set in the salt flats behind a custom windfoil at the back of a Porsche, with a single speed crank setup incorporating a 125-tooth :shock: chainring... I think that's accurate..)

Regarding chainrings, are shift ramps and pins at all important to you?

Mel.
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Re: Custom ACS Flanged Freewheels

Postby spinningmagnets » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:55 am

I'm not in the market for a BB-drive right now, but I feel its a great option that needs to be available to the public, and I'm happy to see more options being made available. BB-drives have established themselves as a great way to give a motor some gears. It provides a wide range of performance (top-speed / hill climbing) from a smaller/lighter and less expensive motor. Lower amp-draw results from being able to keep the motor near its most efficient RPM, and that helps the battery range/size/cost.

I wish you luck, and I hope your business thrives...

Heres a thread for your amusement:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11323&start=30#p186749
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Re: Custom ACS Flanged Freewheels

Postby MotoMel » Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:32 pm

spinningmagnets -

I am left speechless -- dumbfounded -- at the chainring that looks like a Mandelbrot set: circles within circles within ...

That's an absolutely delightful image. I wonder if the chainring still exists, whether some French home or bike shop sports that chainring on its wall. It's a real piece of art.
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Re: Custom ACS Flanged Freewheels

Postby Dingo2024 » Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:05 pm

Hi Mel,

any update on the spiders yet? I would be happy to take one without the chainring holes and drill my own :wink:

Ian :D
started as a boy, grew into a man....not sure where I am headed now
build thread; viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18130
top speed now stands at 43.9 mph
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Re: Custom ACS Flanged Freewheels

Postby MotoMel » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:56 pm

Hi Ian. What BCDs are you wanting for the spider: 130, 110 or 104? And are you wanting it with or without the granny gear at 74 or 64 BCD?

Mel.
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