93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

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93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Postby John in CR » Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:36 am

I got tired of waiting for a better hubmotor to become available, so I went out and found one, tested it for 6 months, and brought it to market. Introducing the high efficiency MiniMonster, arguably the best hubmotor available for under $5,000.

What makes this motor so special?
- Efficiency- Peak efficiency is 93% and high efficiency extends throughout the prime operating range. The result is is about half the waste heat for the same of popular hubbies, which means no cooling mods are needed for up to 6kw peak input. It also means that you get more range out of your batteries. I saw a solid 20% decrease in wh/mile over the long term in my normal riding, same speeds and conditions.

- 2 speeds- The motor is capable of both high speed and great hill climbing at good efficiency, something no other hubmotor can claim. This is accomplished using a unique mechanical switching in the stator that changes the Kv from 17rpm/volt in high to 9rpm/volt in low. In low speed mode it can handle the steep stuff without melting down. eg At 75V with my 50kg test bike plus 115kg me, it goes 52mph in high, and 31mph in low on flat terrain. On the longest really steep road I could find, the low speed setting hauls my fat butt up that 25% grade like it was nothing, and barely gets warm much less hot. This is not a mechanical transmission, so there's no significant change in torque between the 2 speeds. Even though the torque constant changes with the hi/low switch, the controller responds to the greater resistance and inductance with lower current. You just go slower and the band of prime efficiency moves to lower rpms, making hills easier to climb without bogging down.
- Built in 5" drum brake- The rear brake is already handled for you.
- Dual torque arms included- They're the thru hole type, so I suggest adding at least 1 clamping type torque arm if you use regen.
- Built in thermistor- Connect a warning light or alarm to let you know the motor is getting too hot. I haven't needed it, but it's there for those who want to explore the performance limits or who just want the piece of mind a thermal warning system provides. The thermistor goes to low resistance at 95°C.

Vital stats:

Rated power- 2500W at 72V
Kv- 17rpm/v in high 9rpm/v in low
No load current at 75V- 0.9A in high 0.35A in low
Hall sensor angle- 120°
OD of motor shell- 173mm (6.8") exluding rim flange
Stator diameter= 150mm (5.9")
Stator width (motor length)- 50mm (2")
Weight- under 10kg (about 8.5kg trimmed down for mid-drive use)

Introductory ES special price $285

Options:
Bolt on 10" scooter rim - $35
60A 18fet Controller with 100V components incl irfb4110 mosfets - $130 prewired for Cycle Analyst, 3 speed switch, reverse, ebrake, and regen. It's tuned specifically for this motor.
More options to come - We're working hard on a universal clamping torque arm solution, and before the year is out we will offer at least 2 different frames designed specifically around this motor. Prototyping and thorough testing takes time, but the motors are ready to go, so we want to get them out there to the guys who will know what to do with them.

How can this motor be so much more efficient than the 82-86% peak efficiency of motors commonly available?
It's a very different design with about the only thing common with other hubmotors is that it's round. The 18 stator teeth and 20 magnets make it more like an RC outrunner, a giant one with a low Kv and hall sensors. It takes more than just a great design to make a high efficiency motor. It also requires high quality materials and build quality. The stator iron is better than common hubmotors, with high quality silicon steel imported from Japan that is significantly thinner than is typically used in hubmotors, which results in lower iron losses. These have 30 low conductivity steel laminations per cm. The motor also uses a lot more copper for lower copper losses.

It sounds too good to be true, so what's the catch?
There isn't one really now that people are finally coming to the realization that hubmotors run better in smaller wheels. Just don't expect to mount this motor on a regular bicycle in 10 minutes. It's not made for bicycles, so it takes some fabrication to mount. Instead of incurring multiple shipping charges buried in a higher price, or waiting on the slow boat from China, we decided to ship directly from China. We aren't NY bankers so our short term goal is building volume, not maximizing short term profit. We've squeezed the price down to the bare minimum to help take the sting out of shipping costs.

This motor is not some unproven new design. Thousands have been on the road for years, so there's no new product kinks still to be worked out. They've just been used on the wrong vehicles, but on ebikes their true potential can be unleashed.

PM me for a quote, but expect shipping for a raw motor to be in the neighborhood of $150 or higher depending where you live. We process orders in weekly batches as a cost cutting measure. The motors are in inventory ready to go, so you can expect what we believe is the best hubmotor in the world within 30 days, though typically much quicker....promise less and deliver more is how we do business.

John
Last edited by John in CR on Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:35 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: High Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Postby John in CR » Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:38 am

Here's some pics of what make this motor unique. I'll add some finished bikes of mine here later...well running bikes, since I rarely actually finish a bike to my satisfaction due to better ideas racing in my head continuously. That's why I launched this thread somewhat prematurely (yes they're ready for sale, but I wanted to get further along with website, example bikes, etc) in hopes that I could get some sleep. Unfortunately my mind is racing even more. Don't worry I still get sleep on an as needed basis, just nothing like "normal people" :lol:

Here's a pic of the laminations in this motor
Inside a 2 speed MiniMonster laminations.JPG
Inside a 2 speed MiniMonster laminations.JPG (45.83 KiB) Viewed 11330 times


This is what I mean by more copper. This is a MiniMonster stator next to the stator of a more typical type of ebike stator.
Good quality 200mm stator next to 150mm MiniMonster.JPG
Good quality 200mm stator next to 150mm MiniMonster.JPG (45.27 KiB) Viewed 11330 times
Last edited by John in CR on Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:05 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: High Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Postby Tench » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:41 am

You have a pm John, and do you have any pics?

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Re: High Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Postby Harold in CR » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:01 am

Since John posted a few months back, that we don't have the "Pedals needed" ruling down here, I have been impatiently waiting for these to become available. After visiting John, and riding one of his creations, I'm the first to actually order one of these.

My route is worse than John's, being I'm at the top of the steepest parts of my road, so, I have finally bought one of these, and, it should arrive in about a week at my Son's house, in Florida. He is shipping a crate down here, so, I can FINALLY get something under my butt.

My plans are 74V of Nano techs. I'm buying 2--10S 4500 Mahr bricks per month, until I have at LEAST 4 pairs of them, so, that would be 20S4P of 40C Lipos to mount on the frame. Design of the frame has been put off, until I GET the motor. It takes a little more figuring because of the drum brake, BUT, I might redesign that into a hydraulic disc brake. I have a 14" Moped wheel coming down, and, I am redesigning THAT for a disc brake.

Where I plan to ride, I HAVE to be able to stop, because the road bottoms out in a "T", with the main NE-SW artery, and, it's full of Buses, Semi's, and the typical 2-5 ton Bob trucks. No stop = gringo road kill. :shock: :shock: :shock: .
Next month I get one of the matching controllers. John, hang on to one of those controllers for me, OK ??
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Re: High Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Postby Jeremy Harris » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:13 am

Sounds pretty good, John. Any chance of some pictures, or maybe a drawing of the outline of the motor with some dimensions, please? I may be interested in one, but would want to lace it to an 18" moped rim.
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Re: High Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Postby cassschr1 » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:35 am

What size dropouts are going to be needed?
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Re: High Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Postby Jeremy Harris » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:42 am

According to the YouTube clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXlKjNBwygE&feature=plcp), 190mm, but could be 135mm, assuming this is the same motor.
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Re: High Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Postby mikebikerad » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:47 am

Count me in on one bare if there is the ability to use it with spokes and mtb rims. This sounds awesome John!
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Re: High Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Postby John in CR » Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:55 am

Jeremy Harris wrote:Sounds pretty good, John. Any chance of some pictures, or maybe a drawing of the outline of the motor with some dimensions, please? I may be interested in one, but would want to lace it to an 18" moped rim.


Yes I'm going to put pics and stuff in the reserved post above. There aren't spoke flanges, but instead a single thick 4 bolt flange for the rim, which I believe is a 4 bolt 190mm pattern. My calipers don't reach around to measure with enough accuracy to quote though. If the 18 on mopeds is measured like a bicycle wheel, then that would work fine, but if it's like motos, which I expect, then I'd discourage that large a wheel. The Kv is just too high and performance will suffer terribly in what would be what, a 23" OD wheel. If you want to run that size wheel mid-drive is the way to go. IMO mid-drive is where it will ultimately shine the most, because it opens up the potential for high voltages where common hubbies start overheating. The 10" scooter wheel on mine works out to almost a 17" OD wheel. A 23" wheel puts things out in the 70mph range in high in a 23" wheel at 75V, which isn't reasonable without a very aero shell, not at this power level.

Maybe think Hanebrink type bike but with a hubbie as one neat option for in-wheel use while looking more like a fat tire bicycle than a Hanebrink. I'm sure someone will do something like that. I know I want to build one.

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Re: High Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Postby Jeremy Harris » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:07 am

John in CR wrote:
Jeremy Harris wrote:Sounds pretty good, John. Any chance of some pictures, or maybe a drawing of the outline of the motor with some dimensions, please? I may be interested in one, but would want to lace it to an 18" moped rim.


Yes I'm going to put pics and stuff in the reserved post above. There aren't spoke flanges, but instead a single thick 4 bolt flange for the rim, which I believe is a 4 bolt 190mm pattern. My calipers don't reach around to measure with enough accuracy to quote though. If the 18 on mopeds is measured like a bicycle wheel, then that would work fine, but if it's like motos, which I expect, then I'd discourage that large a wheel. The Kv is just too high and performance will suffer terribly in what would be what, a 23" OD wheel. If you want to run that size wheel mid-drive is the way to go. IMO mid-drive is where it will ultimately shine the most, because it opens up the potential for high voltages where common hubbies start overheating. The 10" scooter wheel on mine works out to almost a 17" OD wheel. A 23" wheel puts things out in the 70mph range in high in a 23" wheel at 75V, which isn't reasonable without a very aero shell, not at this power level.

Maybe think Hanebrink type bike but with a hubbie as one neat option for in-wheel use while looking more like a fat tire bicycle than a Hanebrink. I'm sure someone will do something like that. I know I want to build one.

John


Thanks for the honest reply John, maybe I'll re-think things. Having been digging around a bit, is this motor basically similar to the XM2000 motor (info here on a strip down: http://visforvoltage.org/sites/default/ ... ection.pdf ) and the motor in these two threads: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4516 and viewtopic.php?f=28&t=16807 ?
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Re: High Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Postby John in CR » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:19 am

cassschr1 wrote:What size dropouts are going to be needed?


Bone stock is 190mm with 12mm flats. Lose the drum brake and modding the axles down to 135mm is possible. As you'll see when I mod the empty post above, I got one of mine down to 145mm with room to spare even with a sprocket and reinforced cover to support it by modding only the right side (brake side) axle with more possible. You wouldn't want to go smaller than the 12mm flats though because both are hollow, though the switching side has a much thicker wall thickness.

Custom clamping dropouts is the way to go, and a steel moped frame may be the easiest route if you have limited metal fabrication capacity. Maybe we can get Farfle to do up a batch of customer Genesis swingarms to fit for those insisting on starting with a bicycle.
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Re: High Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Postby gensem » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:33 am

John do you plan on having bigger motors available?

:)
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Re: High Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Postby Farfle » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:53 am

John in CR wrote:
Custom clamping dropouts is the way to go, and a steel moped frame may be the easiest route if you have limited metal fabrication capacity. Maybe we can get Farfle to do up a batch of customer Genesis swingarms to fit for those insisting on starting with a bicycle.



The V3 swingarms will be available for 26" wheels with centered dropouts, or for 20" wheels with offset lowered dropouts, I could probably do a few for even smaller wheels.
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Re: High Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Postby John in CR » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:55 am

Jeremy Harris wrote:
John in CR wrote:
Jeremy Harris wrote:Sounds pretty good, John. Any chance of some pictures, or maybe a drawing of the outline of the motor with some dimensions, please? I may be interested in one, but would want to lace it to an 18" moped rim.


Yes I'm going to put pics and stuff in the reserved post above. There aren't spoke flanges, but instead a single thick 4 bolt flange for the rim, which I believe is a 4 bolt 190mm pattern. My calipers don't reach around to measure with enough accuracy to quote though. If the 18 on mopeds is measured like a bicycle wheel, then that would work fine, but if it's like motos, which I expect, then I'd discourage that large a wheel. The Kv is just too high and performance will suffer terribly in what would be what, a 23" OD wheel. If you want to run that size wheel mid-drive is the way to go. IMO mid-drive is where it will ultimately shine the most, because it opens up the potential for high voltages where common hubbies start overheating. The 10" scooter wheel on mine works out to almost a 17" OD wheel. A 23" wheel puts things out in the 70mph range in high in a 23" wheel at 75V, which isn't reasonable without a very aero shell, not at this power level.

Maybe think Hanebrink type bike but with a hubbie as one neat option for in-wheel use while looking more like a fat tire bicycle than a Hanebrink. I'm sure someone will do something like that. I know I want to build one.

John


Thanks for the honest reply John, maybe I'll re-think things. Having been digging around a bit, is this motor basically similar to the XM2000 motor (info here on a strip down: http://visforvoltage.org/sites/default/ ... ection.pdf ) and the motor in these two threads: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4516 and viewtopic.php?f=28&t=16807 ?


Yes, other than the video you linked earlier, which is me spinning up one of mine last December, the others reference the same basic motor. Those 4+ year old models are basically the same, though the factory added the thermistor and wire along with some small changes to beef up the switching. Plus they re-rated the motor for a higher voltage.

Unfortunately none of us really knew the potential back then, since we had no motor report showing the efficiency, so mine sat on a shelf for a couple of years with broken hall wires until I showed Luke the stator when he was down, and due to his RC motor experience he was duly impressed. In the process of modding it to be this monster outrunner, my buddy shattered some of the magnets, and I couldn't find appropriate replacements because they are arced to properly match the stator.

I never could find a supplier except for a short period 3 years ago as a replacement part for the XM2000, but that fizzled out. Then last year I happened upon the company that holds the related Chinese patents and has the motors manufactured. It's mostly obsolete for scooters, because of today's much larger motors and all consumers care about is the Watts, range, speed, and price, though they do still sell a couple of models in Asia as little lead pigs. That's why the price is so low, but it all works out great for us, especially since our thinking isn't constrained by any box. A hubbie with 93% efficiency, are you kidding me, I'll find quick and proper uses for that, so here we are. I'm not dragging my feet this time like I did with the other hubbies I've used for years, which back then were $125 with motor, controller, spokes rim and more that can push me to 60mph on 74V, and with which Crystalyte still hasn't caught up. These puppies are way better than my old ones. :mrgreen:

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Re: High Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Postby Jeremy Harris » Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:07 am

I have to say that I'm impressed with the internals of that motor, much better looking and beefier than typical ebike hub motors, with an impressive amount of copper in there. A larger diameter one with spoke flanges would suit me perfectly..................
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Re: High Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Postby John in CR » Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:10 am

gensem wrote:John do you plan on having bigger motors available?

:)


I have some promising prospects in route, but testing is required. I'm open to any motor that is this much better than what is currently available whether it's smaller or bigger. $5-6kw makes for great practical transportation that is fun and zippy. Without going mid-drive and getting rid of the switching and other significant but straight forward mods, along with boosting the voltage, this motor won't do extreme power, at least your idea and mine of extreme. I'll do that with the one I modded only the outside for mid-drive at some point, but first I need to run it stock as a trail bike geared down to 40ish top speed in high, where it should be a nice little beastie.

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Re: High Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Postby John in CR » Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:19 am

Jeremy Harris wrote:I have to say that I'm impressed with the internals of that motor, much better looking and beefier than typical ebike hub motors, with an impressive amount of copper in there. A larger diameter one with spoke flanges would suit me perfectly..................


I'll put you on the 20kw hubbie wish list then. Start thinking in terms of wheels 20" OD and smaller, then hubmotors you want do exist, or mods are very easy. Some will run the larger wheels too as long as you don't have steep mountains or larger loads than me (or is it I ?), but the motor is strained, and the performance difference is substantial. It's like swinging an oversized prop, and if you get caught on a hill behind a slow truck, the controllers scream for help. :mrgreen:

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Re: High Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Postby Jeremy Harris » Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:51 am

John in CR wrote:I'll put you on the 20kw hubbie wish list then. Start thinking in terms of wheels 20" OD and smaller, then hubmotors you want do exist, or mods are very easy. Some will run the larger wheels too as long as you don't have steep mountains or larger loads than me (or is it I ?), but the motor is strained, and the performance difference is substantial. It's like swinging an oversized prop, and if you get caught on a hill behind a slow truck, the controllers scream for help. :mrgreen:

John


I don't really *need* 20 kW (yet.........), around 5 or 6 kW would be OK, as I'd at least like to try staying vaguely legal as a moped. I was toying with the idea of sticking a hub motor in my RD50 project bike (it runs 18" moped rims, so around 24" overall diameter with a 2.75 tyre). I need a hub motor with a brake, preferably a drum brake as that'd be easiest to integrate with the drum brake set up that's already on the frame. The Enertrac motors are far too expensive (around $1300 plus shipping), have a bit too low a Kv (for legal reasons over here I'd like to keep the pack voltage well under 75 V, so I don't have to deal with the hassle of compliance with the Low Voltage Directive and the costs of getting certification in order to get insurance) and are a bit heavy.
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Re: High Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Postby spinningmagnets » Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:05 pm

With two speeds, low-kV, factory temp-probe, and having an outrunner diameter / width of a dollar bill, this has got to be the best possible motor for a longtail cargobike. Since it has a reverse switch, I assume it is neutrally timed, and that makes a mid-hub an easier adaptation.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=32220#p466764
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9673

John, would you see any problems running this at 48V with a 12-FET?

3 scooter motor specs from John
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=48439&p=713337#p713337
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Re: High Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Postby oatnet » Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:17 pm

Excellent, John. I'm knee-deep in a 4-wheel project at the moment, but when my wallet can come up for air I will be buying some of these!

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Re: High Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Postby cwah » Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:18 pm

If only this motor was lighter... I'd love to add a 90% efficiency to my brompton... :lol:
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Re: High Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Postby Kin » Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:12 pm

Very cool, this surprised me. I'm subscribing to keep up with updates ^_^.
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Re: High Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Postby John in CR » Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:20 pm

spinningmagnets wrote:With two speeds, low-kV, factory temp-probe, and having an outrunner diameter / width of a dollar bill, this has got to be the best possible motor for a longtail cargobike. Since it has a reverse switch, I assume it is neutrally timed, and that makes a mid-hub an easier adaptation.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=32220#p466764
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9673

John, would you see any problems running this at 48V with a 12-FET?


I agree and can't wait to see the different implementations of the motor. Yes, it's neutrally timed and has the same Kv in reverse, so it can be flipped over.

If you keep the drum brake running it backward, you have to make the draw of the brake arm pull so rotating part goes clockwise instead of counter clockwise like it is on the right. It's easy enough to do, I just wanted to throw that out there, because I've made that mistake before, and you can't just flip it over and pull the normally. It works, but you get no braking force, because the drum uses the rotation to help bind the shoes against the drum. Flip it over, rotate 180°, and reposition the arm to pull from the bottom. The difference is a bit like putting your feet down in front for a Flintstone's stop or dragging your feet on the ground behind you which has almost no stopping force. Even knowing the effect and looking at the mechanism it's not readily apparent, but even turning the wheel by hand and pulling the brake handle you can feel the difference.

I'm sure some guys will want to run it as a hubbie with it flipped, because the AL cover side meant for the left is easier to mod for adding freewheels and sprockets. For my mid-drive, I'm just running a chain on the left side, with no freewheel. Nice and easy, I keep regen, and the pedal line stays normal to the rear wheel, just a bit longer chain since I lengthened the swingarm to fit the motor.

I need to do less reading and typing, and do more building. To show what I mean instead of words. :mrgreen:

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Re: High Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Postby John in CR » Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:42 pm

Here's the bike I should have worked on today that gets a MiniMonster as a mid drive hanging under the extended swingarm with clamps right on the axle flats for a simple mount. It will be a left drive with a fixed chain, so I retain regen for descending mountains.
Wahoo for mid drive MiniMonster small.JPG
Wahoo for mid drive MiniMonster small.JPG (53.98 KiB) Viewed 6700 times


I ran the MiniMonster on a chopper looking bike with a front pedal chain inspired by the FlowRoller for a while. Of all my bike other than the 30kw performance of my SuperV, this bike got the most attention. It was just too unstable to to a way slack head tube, and here it is steepened up. Note the supports from the wheel to to the bars, which give it rigidity and an adjustable trail aren't shown. Thanks to Harold having his MiniMonster shipped to Florida, I have an extra motor and this attention getting frame gets a new life and a skin with lots of batts within. Hopefully the geometry is much improved. Fun and comfortable is the name of the game here, and that leaf spring works great as a sprung back support with the backrest from a secretary chair for comfort.
Front pedal rear MiniMonster Chopper small.JPG
Front pedal rear MiniMonster Chopper small.JPG (59.94 KiB) Viewed 6700 times


$hit! I need to hurry up and get video capability for you guys. I'll let the kids figure out how to work it, edit, upload, etc. :mrgreen:
John in CR
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 11483
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 12:58 am
Location: Paradise

Re: High Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Postby John in CR » Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:31 pm

Here's the motor I modded for mid-drive. Please excuse the rust, I did the cutting about 6 weeks ago and we're into the beginning of wet season. I shaved some extra grams from the motor with a grinder with the motor spinning, exposing the iron previously well protected by the greyish coating. I need to repaint. Note that all but the centering stub for mounting the sprocket, which I turned on a lathe to fit the bearing and sprocket hole, was done using simple tools. I mounted the motor in dropouts and used it as it's own lathe with an angle grinder and hacksaw to cut and machine things down. I was pretty proud of precision grinder work with a thin stainless cut disc to make the new axle flats on the right side. The tape is still there on the shifter rod to prevent metal bits from getting in. The motor remained perfectly balanced from 0 thru over 1300rpm, another sign of quality that I didn't disturb with my crude metalwork. :mrgreen:

MiniMonster mid drive in line view sml.JPG
MiniMonster mid drive in line view sml.JPG (63.98 KiB) Viewed 6687 times


MiniMonster mid drive left view sml.JPG
MiniMonster mid drive left view sml.JPG (44.18 KiB) Viewed 6687 times


MiniMonster mid drive right view sml.JPG
MiniMonster mid drive right view sml.JPG (47.82 KiB) Viewed 6687 times
Last edited by John in CR on Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John in CR
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 11483
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 12:58 am
Location: Paradise

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