Advanced ADAPTTO controllers and compatible products

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zombiess
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Re: The most advanced Adaptto Mini-E Controller + BMS

Post by zombiess » Mar 20, 2014 8:38 pm

andreym wrote: There is no way you can get more power using 150v FETs at the moment than 100v ones.
Simply calculate maximum current and power dissipation at the same current for IRFP4468 and IRFP4568
you will be surprised. because 150v ones have twice RDSon compared to 100v ones. This means in the same conditions you can only use half the current.
But wait a minute, you have only 1.5x the voltage, not 2x !!!

In total the most effective way to get maximum power is to go 100v FETs.
This post is not meant to be a flame, it's meant to be educational because the math and reality do not support what you are saying. If you only look microscopically at RDSon what you are saying makes sense, but RDSon is only one small factor and is only the dominant heat producer under certain conditions.

Most losses come from switching an diode losses unless you are using full block commutation (no PWM or at least very little), then the conduction losses become your dominant issue. The Xie Chang controllers use full block commutation at 100% throttle under some conditions do, but with or sine wave you are always switching at your PWM freq unless you switch to trapezoidal wave forms. Lebowskis controller chip does this. Even if you do go into full block commutation as long as your thermal management is good it doesn't matter that the dominant losses are conductive.The IRFP4468 and IRFP4568 are both capable of good power with the IRFP4568 > IRFP4468 most of the math I have run if you read the datasheets and know the package limitations. More voltage at the same amps = more total watts. 80V * 200A = 16,000W, 120V * 200A = 24,000W. Same amperage, just higher voltage. Myself and others have proven many times higher voltage is a great way to get more power, it's why IGBTs exist. There are not many high speed hub motors and a downside to many higher KV hub motors is that they end up having higher start up losses in stop and go traffic unless they can produce an adequate amount of torque.

92V max, that is NOT A SAFE VOLTAGE for an IRFP4468. You max safe voltage is going to be around 80V fully charged and even that only gives you a 20% safety margin which would be the bare minimum for a commercial product IMO. If you switch to an IRFP4568 and 150V capacitors you end up with a much better controller.

The TO-247 package has a usable package limit of 120A max due to the legs. Now that you see the package legs are the limit look at the math.

Safe operating area with package limit and 20% voltage safety margin
IRFP4468 = 80V @ 120A, put 2 in parallel and you have a max of around 80V @ 200A = 16,000W
IRFP4568 = 120V @ 120A, put 2 in parallel and you have a max of around 120V @ 200A = 24,000W

If you examine figure 9 in each of these MOSFETs data sheets you will see they are both OK to operate at 120A @ 100C. Since you never run up against the max specs look at the 80C Tc max which is where you should be going into protect mode and limiting output until the temperature starts to drop. At 100C you should be shutting down the controller to prevent any possible damage.

If you do not have anything else in the controller holding you back from running up to 125V, you could greatly improve it by switching to IRFP4568 MOSFETs and 150v rated caps. No need to worry about the RDSon, both of the MOSFETs are low being 2.6mOhm and 5.9mOhm respectively. Heat lost to conduction losses is squat compared to everything else.

Here is a real world example I have tested with the Xie Chang controllers and IRFB4110 and IRFB4115 MOSFETs.
An 18 FET 4110 controller was able to do 140A @ 75V before reaching my 100C thermal limit, an 18 FET 4115 controller was able to do 85A at 125V before reaching my 100C limit, both took about the same amount of time to reach the limit. The 18 FET controller case is the limiting factor for the IRFB4115 based controller because it does run warmer due to unipolor PWM and going into full block commutation at top speed. Even with those numbers, 75*140=10,500W, 125*85=10,600W. Pretty much splitting hairs, pick the right controller for the KV of your motor. When I moved up to 24 FET controllers which have much better thermal capabilities things change a lot. The 4110 controller could do 200A @ 80V and be in spec, 16,000W. The 25 FET IRFB4115 controller can do 120V @ 200A and be in spec, 24,000W. I wasn't able to get either one of these controllers over 75C Tc (I always monitor the Tc of the FET under PWM as it almost always has the highest losses).

Remember the IRFB4110 has a RDSon of 4.5mOhm vs the IRFB4115 at 11mOhm. The TO-220 case is limited to a max of 75A and with paralleling 4 FETs I derated to 50A per FET. Given good thermal properties you can see that the RDSon really doesn't make much of a difference.

I believe it would be worth your time to solder in some IRFP4568 MOSFETs and put a temp probe on the case of the MOSFET body and datalog it's temp vs and IRFP4468 based controller. Change nothing besides the MOSFET and see how much of a difference there is in the temperature, I'm pretty sure you will be surprised how little difference there is. The difference will probably be so small that you will have problems measuring it reliably except maybe under a unique operating mode (I don't know exactly how your controller works so I am unable to tell you the worst case scenario, but the above info should help you figure it out).

I don't know if you are the person who designed the power stage on this controller or who has been involved, but have them run the math on losses and you will clearly see that it makes more sense to go with the IRFP4568 MOSFET. The math is pretty easy, I've previously posted a spreadsheet long ago which will calc the switching losses for you.

The DIY ebike crowd certainly needs better controller choices and the Addapto appears pretty innovative. I personally would like to try one out.

Do you have details on how the BMS is working? You using the LTC6803 chips?

Could you post some detailed photos of the internals. I'm interested in seeing the driver layout and power stage designs. You can PM or email me if you don't want to make them public.

Regards and the best of luck with sales,
Jeremy

P.S. I emailed you about pricing last night. jwolf@dodecahedronsolutions.com

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Re: The most advanced Adaptto Mini-E Controller + BMS

Post by GCinDC » Mar 20, 2014 10:10 pm

huge fan of the miniE.

after my lipos almost bought down my garage, last year, andrey sold me a preprod mini-E in July and i've been loving it ever since, as those of you who follow my thread will know.

best things: it's SILENT and FAST. faster @ 80V than my infineon @ 100V.

to show silence here's a vid comparing the sound of my old GT w/ 80V45A infineon (and 9C) to my dh comp w/ miniE 80V60A (hs3540) (and a bare foot powered tricycle):


next best thing: BMS/Charging - put your RC chargers on a shelf and bulk charge all the time.

configure the system to start balancing whenever the cells reach a certain voltage, @ 4.15 if you just want the cells to balance when just about fully charged or anything lower, or not at all. up to you.

visually monitor ALL the cell voltages, and the delta, and the pack state of charge.

i usually just check the cell balance screen after a long ride or something, but here's a vid showing the voltages going over the cliff at the end, and normal riding with the regular display beforehand (of my model, which may be diff than the newest listed here - also note that my pack is all zippys except cells 17-20 which are turnigy...)

yes, that was 51mph on 20s, and also illustrated was how w/ supplied temp sensor installed the system will save you from overheating your motor! don't ask me how, but if the motor gradually getting hot (i have my set at 300F) then current gets limited and if saturated, power will practically cut off to prevent overheating. saved my motor many times.

ALSO AWESOME: Autodetect hall/phase combos. got family in town and you want to hook up a new motor w/o having to remove and reorder hall contacts in the connector to find out the combo? just plug 'em in and run autodetect:


SPEED MODES
i like to go fast, but out with the family, no need for external speed switch... just change the mode and program it right via display. no need for serial ttys for programming...

heaps of cool features.
Youtube channel, 2013 Highlights vid. Ebike Nerdcast.
Giant DH Comp: 20s lipo (11.6Ah), hs3540, Adaptto Mini-E, 900W BMSBattery charger.
GT I-Drive (sold), 20s lipo, 9C, 72V 45A 12FET.

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Re: The most advanced Adaptto Mini-E Controller + BMS

Post by zombiess » Mar 20, 2014 10:56 pm

I forgot to ask, does the controller have output short protection if the phase leads touch while in operating? I've seen several of the China controllers die from mishaps that caused this scenario, been there done it myself.

Been waiting for this controller to come out as it has some really cool and useful features based on some of the videos I've seen.

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Re: The most advanced Adaptto Mini-E Controller + BMS

Post by ridethelightning » Mar 21, 2014 3:18 am

+1 to the great vids GC.

hey Andreym, is the supplied police detector firmware available yet? :lol:

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Re: The most advanced Adaptto Mini-E Controller + BMS

Post by cal3thousand » Mar 21, 2014 1:12 pm

Wow, that is really silent. I can definitely tell the difference in just the commute video.
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Re: The most advanced Adaptto Mini-E Controller + BMS

Post by dnmun » Mar 21, 2014 1:29 pm

Anndrey: is there a way your BMS controller can monitor the length of time it takes for each cell to come back up to full charge and reach the point where it turns on the balancing shunt transistor?

you have the most sophisticated BMS integrated into the controller we have seen so far so if it was possible to monitor the time it takes to charge each lipo cell then it might be possible to warn in the event that one of the pouches changes in it's charging behavior.

for a lipo pouch that is failing, we would expect the time to full charge to stretch out over time, so the sequence, or order, in which the cells reached full charge might actually change if one cell started taking longer and longer to reach full charge while the others showed normal charging behavior.

but the failing cell may not act that way either, and in fact it might go to full voltage much earlier than the others so that it would normally be slow and suddenly reaches full voltage right away.

so i wondered if your software can monitor that and kick out a notice, pop a flag on the display, to alert the user when they are charging or about to use the bike after a charge. the warning would be that the sequence of cells reaching full charge changed and make the user aware of that.

just an idea i had because i think your stuff may offer enuff functionality to achieve some kinda supervisory status over the charging.

i do think your inclusion of the BMS is almost as important, maybe more important, than the sine wave modulation because we have now had so many fires from charging lipo.

i was stunned to be rereading doc's old thread on the 36 fet controller and saw the note that zap_pat put in his signoff about burning his house down and losing all his ebikes.

so if that could be incorporated into the BMS supervisory functions it might be a useful addition.

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Re: The most advanced Adaptto Mini-E Controller + BMS

Post by Allex » Mar 21, 2014 2:00 pm

Here some some more info taken from an old(incomplete manual)
http://adaptto.ru/files/Maxcontoller_Manual_V1_EN.pdf
pinouts.jpg
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charge.jpg
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Here is a Coil sold by Adaptto and a 1,5kW(~50v30A) charger(PSU) compared to a 18FET infinion
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Last edited by Allex on Apr 29, 2014 3:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The most advanced Adaptto Mini-E Controller + BMS

Post by trevc2 » Mar 21, 2014 7:38 pm

So, the question is, how do we actually place an order? Emails and PM's seem to go unanswered.

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Re: The most advanced Adaptto Mini-E Controller + BMS

Post by snellemin » Mar 21, 2014 10:27 pm

Cool stuff. I'm digging how the bms is integrated with the controller.
Silent speed Racer

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Re: The most advanced Adaptto Mini-E Controller + BMS

Post by xenodius » Mar 22, 2014 12:54 am

I have to say, I am tremendously satisfied with my controller. The power is downright addictive, no worrying about wheelies on my KMX so I can do 0-40mph in ~2 seconds with slicks on clean tarmac.

Efficiency running a cromotor at 15-20 mph for ~90 mile rides still suffers quite a lot, so I'm thinking about a mid drive side-project eventually, but for now... I really, really love my setup. Never have to worry about range, tons of silent power. Flawless for cities, and since I'm about to move to a notoriously hilly city where 12+% grades are common, the regen and power will be indispensable.

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Re: The most advanced Adaptto Mini-E Controller + BMS

Post by mvly » Mar 22, 2014 3:54 am

xenodius wrote:I have to say, I am tremendously satisfied with my controller. The power is downright addictive, no worrying about wheelies on my KMX so I can do 0-40mph in ~2 seconds with slicks on clean tarmac.

Efficiency running a cromotor at 15-20 mph for ~90 mile rides still suffers quite a lot, so I'm thinking about a mid drive side-project eventually, but for now... I really, really love my setup. Never have to worry about range, tons of silent power. Flawless for cities, and since I'm about to move to a notoriously hilly city where 12+% grades are common, the regen and power will be indispensable.
Yeah I would love to get one if I had the money for my TC-80 motor. The Kelly is a bit noisy on startup and some stuttering. But I need to wait for the 12KW version and hopefully it will support > 100V. I don't want to go down to 74V again. I will lose capacity.

I would like to see the longevity. Kelly are tested plenty and so far it's been ice cold even though I pump constant 3-4KW through it. I expect the kelly to last pretty much until my bike rust. Hopefully this controller is somewhere in the same range.

So waiting for more people to test this. I can't afford to be beta tester. I have spent enough money so far. Still looking to for the $1/mile point on the 2 ebike I built.

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Re: The most advanced Adaptto Mini-E Controller + BMS

Post by Adaptto E-Drives Lab » Mar 23, 2014 4:23 am

trevc2 wrote:So, the question is, how do we actually place an order? Emails and PM's seem to go unanswered.
Hi Trevor,

I have replied you via PM and resent my message just now.
Please check your inbox.

Andrey.
For sales enquiries please contact us via: sales@adaptto.com
Technical questions: techsupport@adaptto.com
Web-site: http://adaptto.com/

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Re: The most advanced Adaptto Mini-E Controller + BMS

Post by ridethelightning » Mar 23, 2014 6:06 am

just got back from a hilly ride. really like the varyable regen function.
iv just got a wuxing half hall throttle working as the regen throttle. controller provides smooth start and finish, and good modulation.

i havnt played round with the settings much, but i read in the electrotransport adaptto page that the controller can actually provide REVERSE THRUST if enabled, not just brake.
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Re: The most advanced Adaptto Mini-E Controller + BMS

Post by madin88 » Mar 23, 2014 7:41 am

ridethelightning wrote:just got back from a hilly ride. really like the varyable regen function.
iv just got a wuxing half hall throttle working as the regen throttle. controller provides smooth start and finish, and good modulation.

i havnt played round with the settings much, but i read in the electrotransport adaptto page that the controller can actually provide REVERSE THRUST if enabled, not just brake.
it is a good and simple idea to install a second throttle grip on the handlebar and use it for regen. i first used a chinese thumb throttle for this, but later i built my own with a 60 degree angle 6k pot and a switch for brake light function.
it works really well and the thr, brk calibration function is another outstanding feature of the adaptto unit.

yeah, this controller is indeed able to stop the bike completely to 0 kmh and not only down to about 10kmh. this feature is called "active regen" in menu.
i do not have it enabled, because i do not want to waste my battery juice for braking, but its really nice. i also read something about the ability to select reverse gear.

good -> better -> Adaptto :)
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Re: The most advanced Adaptto Mini-E Controller + BMS

Post by Hyena » Mar 25, 2014 5:28 am

Nice, how strong is the variable regen ? If you go full (regen) throttle will it lock the tyre ? Obviously you don't want that all the time but xomething that can totally emulate a traditional brake would be great, and is something that's been missing up until now.
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Re: The most advanced Adaptto Mini-E Controller + BMS

Post by zener » Mar 26, 2014 1:35 am

madin88 wrote:
ridethelightning wrote:just got back from a hilly ride. really like the varyable regen function.
iv just got a wuxing half hall throttle working as the regen throttle. controller provides smooth start and finish, and good modulation.

i havnt played round with the settings much, but i read in the electrotransport adaptto page that the controller can actually provide REVERSE THRUST if enabled, not just brake.
it is a good and simple idea to install a second throttle grip on the handlebar and use it for regen. i first used a chinese thumb throttle for this, but later i built my own with a 60 degree angle 6k pot and a switch for brake light function.
it works really well and the thr, brk calibration function is another outstanding feature of the adaptto unit.

yeah, this controller is indeed able to stop the bike completely to 0 kmh and not only down to about 10kmh. this feature is called "active regen" in menu.
i do not have it enabled, because i do not want to waste my battery juice for braking, but its really nice. i also read something about the ability to select reverse gear.

good -> better -> Adaptto :)
My Kelly controller hase too variable regen but i dont use it.
My Kelly controller regen works too to 0km/h. What controller with regen works only to 10km/h?

I want see a video from someone pulling a WOT REVERSE THRUST @ 60km/h :wink:
Stopping distance should be half of any normal possible :P

Hyena wrote:Nice, how strong is the variable regen ? If you go full (regen) throttle will it lock the tyre ? Obviously you don't want that all the time but xomething that can totally emulate a traditional brake would be great, and is something that's been missing up until now.
If i set 100% regen in Kelly setup its super strong. On sandy ground it lock the wheel. On pavement not but near at it.
With a locked wheel u dont get regen anymore :mrgreen:

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Re: The most advanced Adaptto Mini-E Controller + BMS

Post by Merlin » Mar 26, 2014 5:19 am

infineon Controllers has @ 100v only regen to 20kph.

from a 80kph run, full regen hits with 3KW.

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Re: The most advanced Adaptto Mini-E Controller + BMS

Post by xenodius » Mar 26, 2014 1:07 pm

mvly wrote:Yeah I would love to get one if I had the money for my TC-80 motor. The Kelly is a bit noisy on startup and some stuttering. But I need to wait for the 12KW version and hopefully it will support > 100V. I don't want to go down to 74V again. I will lose capacity.

I would like to see the longevity. Kelly are tested plenty and so far it's been ice cold even though I pump constant 3-4KW through it. I expect the kelly to last pretty much until my bike rust. Hopefully this controller is somewhere in the same range.

So waiting for more people to test this. I can't afford to be beta tester. I have spent enough money so far. Still looking to for the $1/mile point on the 2 ebike I built.
I got on board early and got a Max-E a while back. It can put out more power than my vented cromotor is capable of handling even when it is literally freezing outside. It's glorious.

I have regen set at 80 amps and I can easily lock the rear. Of course, I'm on a KMX so you might have a different experience on an upright bike. But on an upright, why would you want to lock the rear? =)

When I first got this controller I burnt out a cheap spare bike tire to the fabric doing donuts. Crazy torque with a 20" cromotor! =)

I agree with Andrey that 100+ volts is unnecessary. I still get 55mph in a 20" wheel on 24s A123 cells,

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Re: The most advanced Adaptto Mini-E Controller + BMS

Post by Merlin » Mar 27, 2014 3:25 pm

On a kmx it is Easy to say....
You need only half Power of a normal bike for 55mph ;-)

Without Wind resistance i had a 66mph Run on 18s/75v....
Unfortunaly it was behind a bus :-P

I like the kmx... Because seat Position and the Big bang efficiency on higher speeds...
But i dont like the price and handling offroad or city rushhours... With a trike iam just fast as a car in traffic...

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Re: The most advanced Adaptto Mini-E Controller + BMS

Post by upek » Mar 30, 2014 11:27 am

Andrey,

can you give me some information about my order?

My PM's seems unanswered and I'm getting bit worried.

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Re: The most advanced Adaptto Mini-E Controller + BMS

Post by Merlin » Mar 30, 2014 4:54 pm

Ya for sure it is maybe the best controller package on the world....

BUT AUSTRALIANS AND EUROPE GUYS NEED A PAS OPTION :cry: :cry: :cry:

Using a PAS is not a tricky feature....why dont have this "must have" Package a PAS option?!

I asked that near a year before...but get not an answer. So i was going the infineon way.....
no iam building a new bike.....thinking again to buy the max-e....
but without a PAS .....no way (controlled by police 3rd times allready)

PLEASE !!! PLEASE !!! give us a PAS Mode.......

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Re: The most advanced Adaptto Mini-E Controller + BMS

Post by zombiess » Mar 30, 2014 5:03 pm

2 emails to them and zero response. Guess I'll be evaluating Kelly and Sabvoton they answer emails.

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Re: The most advanced Adaptto Mini-E Controller + BMS

Post by Tench » Mar 30, 2014 5:24 pm

Does anyone know if the power supply used to charge with has to have a voltage above the charged pack voltage or just supply power that the controller can use as it sees fit to charge the pack?
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Re: The most advanced Adaptto Mini-E Controller + BMS

Post by upek » Mar 30, 2014 9:31 pm

Power supply voltage must be lower or equal to charge voltage(for example <=84v for 20s li-po pack) If power supply is lower than charge voltage controller works as step-up conventer. If PS voltage is the same as charge voltage controller will be only limiting current.

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Re: The most advanced Adaptto Mini-E Controller + BMS

Post by madin88 » Mar 31, 2014 1:37 pm

Why you guys do not make a call? They speak english well :)
keep in mind andreym unfortunately lost his flat in a fire short time ago. I think he is busy.
Merlin wrote:PLEASE !!! PLEASE !!! give us a PAS Mode.......
i also would like to see a integrated PAS mode in future. for now we can use a external PAS electronic and connect it between throttle and display.
dont think so complex :P
- Votec V-FR frame / MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R -> approved as L1e moped and fully road legal in EU :)
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