Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by Jason3 » Jun 08, 2017 4:30 am

I have been using the MT60's for a while and really like them, but mine have shown a tendency to loosen up a little after a few insertion and removal cycles. I much prefer them to Anderson's, except when I have to swap the phase wire order... For the power wires I use the XT90-S and prefer them to the XT60 as they have the spark suppression resistor built in.

Overall I like where you're going with this :)

Regards,

Jason

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by StinkyGoalieGuy » Jun 11, 2017 8:56 pm

I just installed this on a BBSHD. If I'm coasting without any motor or pedal power, then engage the throttle, the motor spins up to almost full speed before it clunks and the freewheel engages. I assume this is just an artifact of current control vs voltage control where it always wants to spin at full RPM when there is no load. This jarring must be tough on the nylon gear. What tuning parameter should I adjust to mitigate this?

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by justin_le » Jun 12, 2017 2:55 am

StinkyGoalieGuy wrote:I just installed this on a BBSHD. If I'm coasting without any motor or pedal power, then engage the throttle, the motor spins up to almost full speed before it clunks and the freewheel engages. I assume this is just an artifact of current control vs voltage control where it always wants to spin at full RPM when there is no load.
That is exactly correct and unfortunately there isn't an easy fix to this. There are some settings in the ASI firmware to enable the motor to always stay slightly engaged, so it just has the smallest amount of forward torque and then is always engaged even when the throttle is 'off'. You could mimick this quite effectively by setting the minimum throttle output on the CA to be just enough to get the motor spinning when there is no load on it, but not enough to put any meaningful torque on the cranks. But that does mean that you are wasting a little bit of power all the time even when the throttle is off.

Another possibility is just to play with the ramp up rates (either in the Phaserunner or with the CA3) so that the motor spins up with relatively low current and torque at the time that it engages the freewheel. This will allow the motor to be totally off when you aren't using it, but it will also cause a bit of a lag from when you hit full throttle on the throttle to when you feel full torque from the motor.
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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by Alan B » Jun 12, 2017 4:22 am

This may be a situation where input to the manufacturer may result in a product improvement. Clearly the code in the controller could compensate for this, the inertial load of the unloaded motor is quite different and the code can look for clutch lockup before applying additional current. This mode is advised for gearmotors as well as mid drives. A couple of parameters are needed to engage this option and define the RPM rate of change limit for the unlocked clutch mode. Once the clutch has locked the usual parameters apply, during the transition from zero speed to the clutch locked condition a different set of parameters applies. There are a number of ways to do this. But not recognizing the state of the clutch leads to slamming, wear and system instability.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by justin_le » Jun 12, 2017 4:31 am

Jason3 wrote:Overall I like where you're going with this :)
Thanks, the first potted prototype came out looking tidy and very much like the CAD model which is what we hope for!
ConnectorizedPhaserunner_Potted.jpg
ConnectorizedPhaserunner_Potted.jpg (89.99 KiB) Viewed 2341 times

However, once you plug in the motor phase and battery leads it's not quite so clean, especially as the hall signals in the motor phase cable need to loop backwards from the MT60 plug to reach the wired JST hall plug, and the placement of the XT60 connector near the top of the controller leads to the heavy gauge phase cable and battery cables diverging somewhat as they approach the controller. So we're looking at redesigning the daghteboard so that the XT60 battery cable is aligned more like this:
ConnectorizedPhaserunner_PottedEnd.jpg
ConnectorizedPhaserunner_PottedEnd.jpg (69.78 KiB) Viewed 2341 times
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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by MrDude_1 » Jun 12, 2017 2:14 pm

So several months ago my ebike stopped working. However I've been very busy and haven't gotten around to looking at it closely.
I need to get it back on the road soon, but I dont know where my cable is.
I know the lights are flashing an error code, but I have trouble telling what this means... I took a video with my phone.

Can someone please tell me what error code these lights mean?

https://youtu.be/_5S5nhKHMIM

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by justin_le » Jun 13, 2017 1:37 pm

MrDude_1 wrote:I know the lights are flashing an error code, but I have trouble telling what this means...
Hey Mr. Dude, could you first turn the controller off and on, and see what the flash code is before you hit the throttle. Then press the throttle and tell us the flash code after the throttle was pressed? If there are multiple faults/errors it will go through the various flash codes in succession as you see here. It looks to me like a see a 2-2 (intantaenous phase overcurrent fault) a 1-1 (controller overvoltage) a 1-2 (phase over-current) a 1-3 (current sensor calibration) all of which makes me think that some calibration parameter got corrupted. Did this issue develop while attempting to update/flash the PR at sometime in the past?

I suspect that we're definitely going to need to have the programming cable handy to sort through this one even after we've identified the errors so it would be worth digging up where that programming cable wound up! If not we've also got them listed on amazon now for quick delivery in the US:
https://www.amazon.com/Cycle-Analyst-Sa ... B06Y3LXWP6
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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by MrDude_1 » Jun 13, 2017 1:54 pm

justin_le wrote: Did this issue develop while attempting to update/flash the PR at sometime in the past?
Nope, it happened while I was riding home from work. About a mile from home it just stopped working. Tried the basics, power-cycled, checked connections, etc. no luck. I pedaled it the rest of the way home and parked it.

I will try to connect via the cable tonight.
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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by StinkyGoalieGuy » Jun 21, 2017 10:02 pm

If using the phaserunner to power an RC motor (Astro 3215), will there be any concerns of ripple currents if I'm running at the ragged edge of 90 volts? Or is there some internal mechanism to protect against that? I know the Castle Creations guys add extra caps when they're running close to the 50 volt limit.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by MrDude_1 » Jun 22, 2017 10:04 am

StinkyGoalieGuy wrote:If using the phaserunner to power an RC motor (Astro 3215), will there be any concerns of ripple currents if I'm running at the ragged edge of 90 volts? Or is there some internal mechanism to protect against that? I know the Castle Creations guys add extra caps when they're running close to the 50 volt limit.
Won't that motor have full saturation before the full RPM @90v? by the time you have to worry about that, the motor will be getting pretty hot.
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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by StinkyGoalieGuy » Jun 22, 2017 12:50 pm

MrDude_1 wrote:
StinkyGoalieGuy wrote:If using the phaserunner to power an RC motor (Astro 3215), will there be any concerns of ripple currents if I'm running at the ragged edge of 90 volts? Or is there some internal mechanism to protect against that? I know the Castle Creations guys add extra caps when they're running close to the 50 volt limit.
Won't that motor have full saturation before the full RPM @90v? by the time you have to worry about that, the motor will be getting pretty hot.
I think you may be correct. According to the website, it's sweet spot should be around 54 volts for the 6 turn 3215 which is what I have. I may give that a try.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by StinkyGoalieGuy » Jun 24, 2017 10:56 am

I'm running the Phase Runner on a BBSHD with a CA V3. With a 14S pack, everything runs great. Auto tune ran with no problems. But when I try a 21S pack and turn the throttle, I get nothing. I tried autotune again, and I keep getting "motor not detected! please ensure that all 3 phases are connected to motor windings and try again". The voltage reading on the battery pack was around 84.63volts, and the "rated system voltage" field on the phase runner software was at 48 volts, so I tried to bump that up to 90 volts, but it won't let me go past 84. I know that field is supposed to be auto-configured by auto-tune but I thought that was the problem. I also tried a different battery pack that was sitting around 83 volts and I still get the same error.
- The CA V3 is configured for a 21S LiMn pack.
- Everytime I go back to the 14S pack and do autotune, everything works again.
-"Fast overvoltage fault" and "slow overvoltage fault" is set to 89.99 volts".
-I'm seeing this warning "Warnings[8]: VdcHighFLDBK" - should just be warning only and not prevent any functions
-"Motor position sensor type": sensor start, sensorless run
-"max power limit" : 3000 watts
-"low voltage cutoff (start)": 55.9 volts
-"low voltage cutoff (end)" 55.2 volts

Is there some other field I need to configure in order to run a 21S pack?

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by StinkyGoalieGuy » Jun 24, 2017 12:50 pm

I got it working. So I went back to the other battery pack that was just a hair under 84 volts and went through a few rounds of unplugging the battery, plugging it back in, disconnected the USB TTL cable to the PR a few times, reconnected, then was able to auto tune. So I auto tuned using the slightly under 84 volt back, then went back to the slightly over 84 volt pack and it still works. I think the trick was I needed a pack that was below the 84 volt threshold because the "system voltage" setting in the PR software maxed out at 84 volts.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by wyvernwaddell » Aug 06, 2017 11:01 am

Anyone know what Fault 13 Internal Error means? I'm trying to autotune my PR after buggering up somehow and that's the only error I don't seem to be able to find a way to clear. Also, is there a default .xml for BACDOOR that I can load to get my settings straightened out?
Any advice much appreciated-this thing is being a bear to get straightened out.
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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by justin_le » Aug 07, 2017 9:41 pm

wyvernwaddell wrote:Anyone know what Fault 13 Internal Error means? I'm trying to autotune my PR after buggering up somehow and that's the only error I don't seem to be able to find a way to clear. Also, is there a default .xml for BACDOOR that I can load to get my settings straightened out?
Any advice much appreciated-this thing is being a bear to get straightened out.
Hey there, it's possible in some cases for the internal phaserunner settings to get corrupted if there is an interruptions in the communications while data is being saved on the device, like if the battery power shuts off during autotune or something like that. In this case, you can use the attached .xml file to restore the deeper settings on the Phaserunner, but you first need to go to the advanced tab and click "enable level 3 access" and then hit "save data" so that it will be in a mode where the higher access parameters can be updated.
Level3Access.jpg
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Attachments
PhaseRunner QC Parameters.xml
(35.13 KiB) Downloaded 81 times
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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by wyvernwaddell » Aug 07, 2017 9:53 pm

Much thanks, Justin :) I managed to muddle my way through the whole mess..but you can bet I will be keeping that .xml file somewhere safe for when I somehow manage to do it again. I seem to be all thumbs some days...
Both of our bikes are running quietly and beautifully currently...I may do a little tweaking on mine in a week or two when it's too hot to do anything else around here (Florida in August) but until then, I am quite pleased. The glow in the dark Phaserunner got some attention at the weekend farmers market-I pointed a few people at your website and told them they'd need to do quite a bit of reading (grin). Hopefully I've sent some work your way.
I'll post pics of the new PR when I get a chance-it's been a busy, busy summer so far.
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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by justin_le » Aug 07, 2017 10:13 pm

Awesome and glad to hear that worked out for you. For those a bit confused about this last post, Lisa here managed to endear herself with us enough that we entertained her request to make a custom Phaserunner with a glow-in-the-dark dye added to the mix which she kindly shipped us. It's kinda milky-cream coloured when the lights are on but takes on a life of its own in the dark!
GlowInDarkPhaserunner.jpg
Not your every day Phaserunner
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Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with prototype 26" Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 11Ah Cellman triangle pack
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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by amberwolf » Aug 07, 2017 11:52 pm

FWIW, phosphorescent stuff like that also glows brightly after UV exposure (possibly more than from visible light). Use UV LEDs inside one and it could glow creepily all night. :)

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by MBV » Aug 10, 2017 2:55 am

justin_le wrote:
StinkyGoalieGuy wrote:I just installed this on a BBSHD. If I'm coasting without any motor or pedal power, then engage the throttle, the motor spins up to almost full speed before it clunks and the freewheel engages. I assume this is just an artifact of current control vs voltage control where it always wants to spin at full RPM when there is no load.
That is exactly correct and unfortunately there isn't an easy fix to this. There are some settings in the ASI firmware to enable the motor to always stay slightly engaged, so it just has the smallest amount of forward torque and then is always engaged even when the throttle is 'off'. You could mimick this quite effectively by setting the minimum throttle output on the CA to be just enough to get the motor spinning when there is no load on it, but not enough to put any meaningful torque on the cranks. But that does mean that you are wasting a little bit of power all the time even when the throttle is off.

Another possibility is just to play with the ramp up rates (either in the Phaserunner or with the CA3) so that the motor spins up with relatively low current and torque at the time that it engages the freewheel. This will allow the motor to be totally off when you aren't using it, but it will also cause a bit of a lag from when you hit full throttle on the throttle to when you feel full torque from the motor.
Hi Justin

How do i access the parameters in the ASI firmware? I am having the same issue with my setup. There is and will always be some slack in the drive line of a mid drive and when changeing gears it is hard to not get a bang when the motor spins up. It would be wonderful if there is a setting controlling the RPM ramp up rate. I have also noted that when giving just a little bit of throttle you are in fact controlling the motor rpm. If one could increase that controllable RPM range it would also solve much of the problem.

Can I connect a wheel speedsensor to the phaserunner? That way I might be able to configure the motor to stay slightly engaged given that the wheels are moving? Or can I do the same with the CA3?
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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by agedashidofu » Aug 16, 2017 2:43 am

justin_le wrote:Awesome and glad to hear that worked out for you. For those a bit confused about this last post, Lisa here managed to endear herself with us enough that we entertained her request to make a custom Phaserunner with a glow-in-the-dark dye added to the mix which she kindly shipped us. It's kinda milky-cream coloured when the lights are on but takes on a life of its own in the dark!
GlowInDarkPhaserunner.jpg
Justin,

That looks really psychedelic...need to get that into production!!!

Anyways, awesome stuff!

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by justin_le » Aug 16, 2017 3:45 am

MBV wrote: Hi Justin
How do i access the parameters in the ASI firmware?
You can install the bacdoor software just fine (links are both on our website and on this thread) and connect to the phaserunner that way, but be warned it's not very user friendly. Almost any parameter you see there can also be edited in the phaserunner suite software if you go edit->edit parameters. The exact details for setting up the "always engaged" mode I don't remember, this was from a discussion we had with ASI's engineers a few years ago and they said they had done that or were experimenting with it.
It would be wonderful if there is a setting controlling the RPM ramp up rate. I have also noted that when giving just a little bit of throttle you are in fact controlling the motor rpm. If one could increase that controllable RPM range it would also solve much of the problem.

The little bit of throttle is only varying the RPM indirectly, in that you do need a bit more torque to spin the motor fast compared to spinning it slowly so there is some adjustable range here. If we can't find an intrinsic solution with the PR itself, then one possibility would be to make the CA3 have a special start mode, where after applying throttle it would first set the throttle just above the min output for a fixed time (enough for the motor to speed up at very low torque and engage), and then after that let it ramp up properly and respond.

Are you currently using an ebrake to cutoff the motor power during the shift transitions, and if so do you have it hooked up to the CA3? One other possibility would be to set the brake output voltage to like 1.3V or something that commands just a low torque on the motor, then when you touch the brakes during shifting the motor won't cutout but will instead go to a very low torque mode where it won't impact the shifting but still stays engaged so that there is no slack.
Can I connect a wheel speedsensor to the phaserunner? That way I might be able to configure the motor to stay slightly engaged given that the wheels are moving? Or can I do the same with the CA3?
You could indeed also setup a PAS sensor with the CA3 and have the PAS watts be really low, like 20W or whatever it takes to spin the motor up, but have your PAS sensor signal coming from a speedo sensor on the wheel rather than the cranks. Then whenever the bike is moving there would be a small motor power to keep it engaged whether you have the throttle down or not.
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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by wyvernwaddell » Aug 16, 2017 5:56 pm

Hi everyone :)
I'm trying to set up regen braking on my Phaserunner. I have it plugged into my CA. The brake lever is just a regular on/off brake signal that I have plugged into the ebrake connector on the CA. When I hit the lever, the little lever in the display works and the motor cuts off. Do I need to change anything about that connector? I have a feeling I missed a step somewhere.
CA settings
Throttle in settings: Minimum .80 volt Max 4.22 volt
Throttle out settings: Minimum 1.0 volt Max. 4.0 volt
Regen settings Low Active .5 volts Proportional regen enabled min time .5 second.
Phaserunner settings
Throttle minimum 1.00v throttle max 4.0v
I have regen amps set to 96 amps and I keep getting a Throttle error 11 (throttle out of range) when I pull the lever. The throttle volts pulls down to .37v when I pull the brake lever and Brake2 pulls down to about .40v
I have a deep suspicion that I read something a while back about a setting in the Phaserunner I might have to change to let it see the brake lever signal without it being physically tied to the throttle, but I can't remember where I saw it and I just haven't had time to read thru all the thread. Anyone have a better memory than I?
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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by cycborg » Aug 17, 2017 9:00 am

wyvernwaddell wrote: I have a deep suspicion that I read something a while back about a setting in the Phaserunner I might have to change to let it see the brake lever signal without it being physically tied to the throttle
Could be a few things. I've found regen on the PhaseRunner to be so problematic that I've given up on it, but others have been using it successfully, so here are some simple things you can check, and maybe you'll be luckier than I have been.

First, you didn't mention the "Throttle fault range" setting, so this might be why you're getting the out-of-range error. Since your throttle start voltage is 1 V, set the fault range to 1 or greater, which will allow the throttle signal to be pulled all the way to zero without faulting.

Second, there's a flag you have to set to enable regen:
Go to Edit -> Edit parameters...
Click the "+"
Scroll down to "Features[04]: Analogue braking Addr 212". Select it and click Add
Check the checkbox and click Done. If it's already checked, then there's some other issue.

Give those a try and post whether that solves your problem.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by wyvernwaddell » Aug 17, 2017 6:12 pm

Thanks for the help, Sir!
Ok, I did the two things you listed and now, when I go test the bike, the throttle doesn't work anymore and trying to rotate the pedals produces a pulsing action. If I stop turning the pedals, the pulsing stops. I haven't changed any other settings.

cycborg wrote:
wyvernwaddell wrote: I have a deep suspicion that I read something a while back about a setting in the Phaserunner I might have to change to let it see the brake lever signal without it being physically tied to the throttle
Could be a few things. I've found regen on the PhaseRunner to be so problematic that I've given up on it, but others have been using it successfully, so here are some simple things you can check, and maybe you'll be luckier than I have been.

First, you didn't mention the "Throttle fault range" setting, so this might be why you're getting the out-of-range error. Since your throttle start voltage is 1 V, set the fault range to 1 or greater, which will allow the throttle signal to be pulled all the way to zero without faulting.

Second, there's a flag you have to set to enable regen:
Go to Edit -> Edit parameters...
Click the "+"
Scroll down to "Features[04]: Analogue braking Addr 212". Select it and click Add
Check the checkbox and click Done. If it's already checked, then there's some other issue.

Give those a try and post whether that solves your problem.
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Phaserunner (love it)
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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by cycborg » Aug 17, 2017 6:44 pm

wyvernwaddell wrote:the throttle doesn't work anymore and trying to rotate the pedals produces a pulsing action
So I just noticed your signature says you're using a MAC. You can't do regen with a Mac due to the freewheel. But maybe your signature isn't up to date and you're using a direct drive hub. In any case, it looks like my curse has rubbed off on you and you should think twice about taking my advice! Losing throttle response, either completely or intermittently, is the problem that I've had.

What do you mean about turning the pedals - do you have a PAS? Or is it just that the bike is moving?

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