Bomber Style Frame Set (EBB) Black - $500 - 2 left

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $650 Shipped in US

Post by evolutiongts » Dec 04, 2015 7:11 pm

I'm recieving the frame tomorrow will post detailed pictures.
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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $650 Shipped in US

Post by Powervelocity.com » Dec 04, 2015 9:23 pm

One thing I am noticing with this frame (vs. a regular bike) is that I need to raise the seat pretty high and still can't fully extend my legs while pedaling. But then, if I raise the seat high I need to bend too much forward. I understand that's even better for aerodynamics but it's not exactly a riding posture I prefer. I think this can be mitigated with a bit raised handlebar. On another note, I am getting around 50wh/m mileage. My current build is around 93 pounds (45mm MXSUS and 20Ah 74v 18650 pack). This is just by a fraction higher than my other much lighter hard tail bike (45wh/m). I use an Infineon-type 18fet controller (which seems to be sine wave) on both builds. I wonder what energy consumption rates people are getting on their builds based on this frame.

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $650 Shipped in US

Post by eVelbike » Dec 05, 2015 1:43 am

Hi Lurkin, your picture is a Vector (E-Kross) geometry, it is different from EEB.
Pls see the EEB:
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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $650 Shipped in US

Post by Lurkin » Dec 05, 2015 2:48 am

Can someone measure it against the actual frame. That information was provided by Changzhou Leili Vehicle Parts Co.,Ltd, the actual producer of this frame.

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $650 Shipped in US

Post by tomjasz » Dec 06, 2015 7:19 pm

Samd wrote:Hahahaha. That head angle, the draft angle and the falling rate. The suspension pickup point. The swingarm geometry.
This is 1980's mountain bike design with a 20kg weight penalty.
Only people who design mountain bikes will know what has been missed.
None of these rolexes actually work like one should. And that's before we even get into expensive mountain bike design.

You guys can start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_suspension
Sam,

Is this what's different about the Flux?
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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $650 Shipped in US

Post by Samd » Dec 06, 2015 10:45 pm

Jesus. 64 degree on the forks unloaded and moreso that rear shock is going to have the silliest falling rate of any single rear end.
No I'm not going to teach you guys frame design. You want to make the money you've gotta do the time.
You can't just copy other people's hard work and expect to have it handle well by ignoring critical angles on a pirate copy of autocad.

A hardcore mtb rider will laugh you off on this. Sorry guys but these frames are bike shaped objects.
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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $650 Shipped in US

Post by ABritInNY » Dec 07, 2015 2:13 am

Artur wrote:Now we are talking, but sorry, this is not Vector frame and the side panel (that is also not from Vector for sure) doesn't fit like this plastic one. Next one, go do this test with ventilation in your side cover :wink: . And the last thing, you dont use side panels to stand on them, hit it with a sharp or heavy object like rock that you can experience if you fall on a bike in a forest or mountains, and we will see the results, ok?
That is not true Artur, it IS a Vector panel v an Enduro panel, I'm a customer of both your companies and it's easy to see, BTW I also feel that the 4mm thick/strong ABS panels on my Enduro frame are more robust and yet more 'giving' too, aside from scraping I think they'd perform better in a crash, based on their strength and flexibility... Vector engineering is Solid and well made and not the "home made" raw product he's making out it is, just the kickstand alone is $50. but it too appears a solid constructed item, something the Chinese aren't exactly famous for.
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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $650 Shipped in US

Post by sendler2112 » Dec 07, 2015 5:35 am

Samd wrote:64 degree on the forks unloaded
The Specialized Demo downhill race bike has a head angle of 63.5*.
.
http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bikes/ ... n#geometry
.

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $650 Shipped in US

Post by ziltoid81 » Dec 07, 2015 6:23 am

The Demo is a pure DH frame, no allround ebike frame......

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $650 Shipped in US

Post by eVelbike » Dec 07, 2015 6:46 am

mmm.... but EEB headtube angle is 66 degrees, I think many high level enduro bycicles also come with 65-67 degrees...
why do you say it is bad?

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $650 Shipped in US

Post by sendler2112 » Dec 07, 2015 9:30 am

Nit- picking this thread to death.

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $650 Shipped in US

Post by DasDouble » Dec 07, 2015 5:59 pm

Well I don´t like copys of other people ideas. This is like buying a fake Mercedes. Why the fu*k would you buy a fake / copyed one? You can copy the design, you can copy the steal, everything. But thats not the thing you are paying for. When I buy a car, I don´t pay for the material, the working hours of the car designer etc. I spend my money actually for a part of the idea, the whole concept. The time it took and was necessary to produce the whole thing, to sell it, to commercialize it. And if you don´t give a fu*k of the time someone was spending to produce a product etc etc you are an ignorant dumbass in my oppinion. You spend houres and houres of your lifetime for developing something, and then a fu*king chinese warehouse comes and clones the whole thing. This is not good in my oppinion and I can´t, and will never support something like this.

One time there will be a cheap chineese guy and will replace your fu*king job. Do you want that? No? So why the hack do you buy a clone of anything? Why? Because you are too lazy and too stingy to respect the whole developement of a job, of a product, of an idea, for the orignial. Think about it... :|
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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $650 Shipped in US

Post by Samd » Dec 07, 2015 8:14 pm

eVelbike wrote:mmm.... but EEB headtube angle is 66 degrees, I think many high level enduro bycicles also come with 65-67 degrees...
why do you say it is bad?
You're not considering the whole suspension location. I'm not gonna design it for you so you can profit from my hard work, previous builds and knowledge.

Profit is a reward for adding value or taking a risk. These frames do neither.

DasDouble is right.
http://ballaratebikes.com/

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $650 Shipped in US

Post by Hyena » Dec 07, 2015 11:18 pm

tomjasz wrote:Is this what's different about the Flux?
I wasn't going to weigh in on the argument as I'm biased but seeing as you mentioned it, if you REALLY want a DIY bomber style bike on a budget it's the obvious choice. Chinese/Russian/German/Martian aside, if you want to copy the bomber handing and appearance you can't go past something designed by the same people, welded up in the same factory, with years of experience and refinement producing strong reliable ebike frames to take heavy hub motors. Infact they're so similar that when I last visited the factory and asked to see the latest batch of FLX Alphas the owner handed me a bomber frame before realising it had the mounts for the Vboxx :lol:
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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $650 Shipped in US

Post by Lurkin » Dec 07, 2015 11:36 pm

DasDouble wrote:Well I don´t like copys of other people ideas. This is like buying a fake Mercedes. Why the fu*k would you buy a fake / copyed one? You can copy the design, you can copy the steal, everything. But thats not the thing you are paying for. When I buy a car, I don´t pay for the material, the working hours of the car designer etc. I spend my money actually for a part of the idea, the whole concept. The time it took and was necessary to produce the whole thing, to sell it, to commercialize it. And if you don´t give a fu*k of the time someone was spending to produce a product etc etc you are an ignorant dumbass in my oppinion. You spend houres and houres of your lifetime for developing something, and then a fu*king chinese warehouse comes and clones the whole thing. This is not good in my oppinion and I can´t, and will never support something like this.

One time there will be a cheap chineese guy and will replace your fu*king job. Do you want that? No? So why the hack do you buy a clone of anything? Why? Because you are too lazy and too stingy to respect the whole developement of a job, of a product, of an idea, for the orignial. Think about it... :|
Which is fine if you can afford the real deal. Others don't have the means, the knowledge or the experience to realise ebikes are worth putting money into. They are not lazy or stingy, just subject to different circumstances. It encourages them to take risk, buying inferior copies at lower prices without (initial) appreciation of alternatives other than price. I initially looked at this exactly the same way.

Whenever I see someone just discussing price, its usually an indicator that they are ignorant of the other more important, and significantly more valuable, attributes of a purchase. Most people taking this risk will not care if its heavier or non perfect frame design, they care about what it will cost and whether they can afford it. Whether it looks like a better quality bike and houses the batteries by 'ebike frame design' rather than crudely hanging off a bike. There's always the (small) chance from their perspective that it pays off and the clone is in some way better for their needs.

Rather than perceiving it as a threat, see it as an entry point. It was only after building my first ebike, I realised the benefits of both quality manufacture and strong desire to keep going with it. Frankly if I had purchased one of these, I think it would be a matter of time before it got replaced with a higher quality alternative. Due to the 'ebike frame race' going on, I found there were more options and realised other frame options are actually pretty affordable, with better attributes - Weight, Geometry, vendor experience, legacy information, English speaking help, accessibility to name a few.

If you look at what true innovators are doing, they are moving away from trying to protect their prior art or whining about others copying it. Rather, open source - go to it and copy it. The original innovator strives to be ahead, so their next design is always better and of greater value, even if the clones were half capable of a proper replica. Either that, or face constant (and very expensive) intellectual property lawsuits.....

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $650 Shipped in US

Post by Lurkin » Dec 07, 2015 11:38 pm

DasDouble wrote:Well I don´t like copys of other people ideas. This is like buying a fake Mercedes. Why the fu*k would you buy a fake / copyed one? You can copy the design, you can copy the steal, everything. But thats not the thing you are paying for. When I buy a car, I don´t pay for the material, the working hours of the car designer etc. I spend my money actually for a part of the idea, the whole concept. The time it took and was necessary to produce the whole thing, to sell it, to commercialize it. And if you don´t give a fu*k of the time someone was spending to produce a product etc etc you are an ignorant dumbass in my oppinion. You spend houres and houres of your lifetime for developing something, and then a fu*king chinese warehouse comes and clones the whole thing. This is not good in my oppinion and I can´t, and will never support something like this.

One time there will be a cheap chineese guy and will replace your fu*king job. Do you want that? No? So why the hack do you buy a clone of anything? Why? Because you are too lazy and too stingy to respect the whole developement of a job, of a product, of an idea, for the orignial. Think about it... :|
Which is fine if you can afford the real deal. Others don't have the means, the knowledge or the experience to realise ebikes are worth putting money into. They are not lazy or stingy, just subject to different circumstances. It encourages them to take risk, buying inferior copies at lower prices without (initial) appreciation of alternatives other than price. I initially looked at this exactly the same way.

Whenever I see someone just discussing price, its usually an indicator that they are ignorant of the other more important, and significantly more valuable, attributes of a purchase. Most people taking this risk will not care if its heavier or non perfect frame design, they care about what it will cost and whether they can afford it. Whether it looks like a better quality bike and houses the batteries by 'ebike frame design' rather than crudely hanging off a bike. There's always the (small) chance from their perspective that it pays off and the clone is in some way better for their needs.

Rather than perceiving it as a threat, see it as an entry point. It was only after building my first ebike, I realised the benefits of both quality manufacture and strong desire to keep going with it. Frankly if I had purchased one of these, I think it would be a matter of time before it got replaced with a higher quality alternative. Due to the 'ebike frame race' going on, I found there were more options and realised other frame options are actually pretty affordable, with better attributes - Weight, Geometry, vendor experience, legacy information, English speaking help, accessibility to name a few.

If you look at what true innovators are doing, they are moving away from trying to protect their prior art or whining about others copying it. Rather, open source - go to it and copy it. The original innovator strives to be ahead, so their next design is always better and of greater value, even if the clones were half capable of a proper replica. Either that, or face constant (and very expensive) intellectual property lawsuits.....

So buy away potential customers. We'll be seeing you in the other frame threads shortly....

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $650 Shipped in US

Post by Samd » Dec 08, 2015 1:01 am

So who pays for the development costs? Because the innovators have to recover the cost.
Don't confuse it with the Tesla open source model - they are playing the game because they control the batteries so they control the competition. It's a deliberate play to boost battery consumption.

Before you know it we are all riding around on washing machines that look like they are form the soviet era.
Because they are from the soviet era.

So who foots the bill for development?
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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $650 Shipped in US

Post by Lurkin » Dec 08, 2015 1:14 am

The post was not a result of any confusion.

Development costs are recovered by the higher prices charged by the original developer. Thus, management of R&D costs is critical as is the ability to market to and attract consumers who appreciate the superior value of the design.

This is why its also critical for developers to maintain a competitive advantage - something that cannot be copied easily. Cheap attempts to replicate fail -
this is WHY this frame is still of low quality. Its failed to copy a competitor with any kind of superiority. It's only key advantage is price...

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $650 Shipped in US

Post by DasDouble » Dec 08, 2015 1:24 am

Lurkin wrote:
DasDouble wrote:Well I don´t like copys of other people ideas. This is like buying a fake Mercedes. Why the fu*k would you buy a fake / copyed one? You can copy the design, you can copy the steal, everything. But thats not the thing you are paying for. When I buy a car, I don´t pay for the material, the working hours of the car designer etc. I spend my money actually for a part of the idea, the whole concept. The time it took and was necessary to produce the whole thing, to sell it, to commercialize it. And if you don´t give a fu*k of the time someone was spending to produce a product etc etc you are an ignorant dumbass in my oppinion. You spend houres and houres of your lifetime for developing something, and then a fu*king chinese warehouse comes and clones the whole thing. This is not good in my oppinion and I can´t, and will never support something like this.

One time there will be a cheap chineese guy and will replace your fu*king job. Do you want that? No? So why the hack do you buy a clone of anything? Why? Because you are too lazy and too stingy to respect the whole developement of a job, of a product, of an idea, for the orignial. Think about it... :|
Which is fine if you can afford the real deal. Others don't have the means, the knowledge or the experience to realise ebikes are worth putting money into. They are not lazy or stingy, just subject to different circumstances. It encourages them to take risk, buying inferior copies at lower prices without (initial) appreciation of alternatives other than price. I initially looked at this exactly the same way.

Whenever I see someone just discussing price, its usually an indicator that they are ignorant of the other more important, and significantly more valuable, attributes of a purchase. Most people taking this risk will not care if its heavier or non perfect frame design, they care about what it will cost and whether they can afford it. Whether it looks like a better quality bike and houses the batteries by 'ebike frame design' rather than crudely hanging off a bike. There's always the (small) chance from their perspective that it pays off and the clone is in some way better for their needs.

Rather than perceiving it as a threat, see it as an entry point. It was only after building my first ebike, I realised the benefits of both quality manufacture and strong desire to keep going with it. Frankly if I had purchased one of these, I think it would be a matter of time before it got replaced with a higher quality alternative. Due to the 'ebike frame race' going on, I found there were more options and realised other frame options are actually pretty affordable, with better attributes - Weight, Geometry, vendor experience, legacy information, English speaking help, accessibility to name a few.

If you look at what true innovators are doing, they are moving away from trying to protect their prior art or whining about others copying it. Rather, open source - go to it and copy it. The original innovator strives to be ahead, so their next design is always better and of greater value, even if the clones were half capable of a proper replica. Either that, or face constant (and very expensive) intellectual property lawsuits.....

So buy away potential customers. We'll be seeing you in the other frame threads shortly....
My friend, it is not about the price. Its about the prinzip. And as I said. Cloning is not justifiable. Not today, not tomorrow, NEVER EVER. Discussing price is, at least in my oppinion, a normal act of dealership. You can discuss about the price even at the bakers house. Or when buying a car. That´s absolutly normal in my oppinion. That has nothing to do with cloning or even with not respecting a development process for a product. Please don´t get me wrong but for me it sounds like you would protect cloning. Just like "it would be a normal act" of life. And if I understood it right, that you are ok with cloning, so then.. well then you are quite unsympathetic for me. :| It´s to early for me this morning to describe you, as I would describe someone who is ok with cloning (in case you are ok with the cloning thing).. :|
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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $650 Shipped in US

Post by Lurkin » Dec 08, 2015 1:31 am

I am neither for or against cloning. My point is getting worked up over shitty clones is a waste of your own time.

In the short run, people buy shitty clones. They work out they are shitty clones. They buy more expensive, better replacements. They are therefore supporting the original developer.

Those who appreciate and can afford a quality frame, buy one immediately.

In the long run, anyone who comes to appreciate the benefits of a quality frame and can find a way to afford it, buys a quality frame. Its just a less direct route to supporting the original developer.

Those who persist to ride shitty clones, cannot afford a quality frame anyway - they were never in the market to support the original developer in the first place. They are therefore, irrelevant. It's likely they will switch to a lower cost, but quality alternative upon discovering the problems with the clone.

This isn't a for or against thing. It's just basic economic theory and it's a basic fact of normal life whether you agree or not. It's not changing the circumstances of other people having a view on whether to clone or not.

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $650 Shipped in US

Post by DasDouble » Dec 08, 2015 1:36 am

Lurkin wrote:I am neither for or against cloning. My point is getting worked up over shitty clones is a waste of your own time.

In the short run, people buy shitty clones. They work out they are shitty clones. They buy more expensive, better replacements. They are therefore supporting the original developer.

Those who appreciate and can afford a quality frame, buy one immediately.

In the long run, anyone who comes to appreciate the benefits of a quality frame and can find a way to afford it, buys a quality frame. Its just a less direct route to supporting the original developer.

Those who persist to ride shitty clones, cannot afford a quality frame anyway - they were never in the market to support the original developer in the first place. They are therefore, irrelevant. It's likely they will switch to a lower cost, but quality alternative upon discovering the problems with the clone.

This isn't a for or against thing. It's just basic economic theory and it's a basic fact of normal life whether you agree or not. It's not changing the circumstances of other people.
Ok I see. :)
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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $650 Shipped in US

Post by eVelbike » Dec 08, 2015 3:29 am

Samd wrote:
eVelbike wrote:mmm.... but EEB headtube angle is 66 degrees, I think many high level enduro bycicles also come with 65-67 degrees...
why do you say it is bad?
You're not considering the whole suspension location. I'm not gonna design it for you so you can profit from my hard work, previous builds and knowledge.

Profit is a reward for adding value or taking a risk. These frames do neither.

DasDouble is right.
Sorry, friend, but I think your words are not true. You can not design the bike and it is not so hard as you explain. You compare electric motorcycle with mountain bikes, say something about suspension points - if say A , please say B. Now you just say that something is very bad, but it can understand only you. Other people who ride it - they enjoy, so my opinion is that it works, so the design is good enough . You say that someone stolen design. No, I am not agree with you. I think that many things in our life was made by someone at first, but later other companies used his idea in basis and added their vision how can it work better. And it is very good for customers, because they can make choice accordind to their needs. I think all frames - Flux, Vector, Qulbix, EEB have advantages and disadvantages. And the one of advantages is price. If Vector did not offered these frames with reasonable prices - stealth bikes would not offered their flux. So this is a competition. You said about mercedes... Do you really think that Mercedes is absolutely different from ford, Bmw, honda, Chrysler or else? They use one idea - for wheels, metal cabine, engine, gearbox etc. Just different details. But all cars do their job. Look to the bicycles - hardtails are almost the same, just different details.
Look to the smartphones, I do not choose iphone, but my android phone looks very similar and I like it more than iphone. I do not believe you , SamD that you are so professional because you do not see the difference between all these frames. And I do not think that Flux is better than EEB, they are different and Flux also has disadvantages. All things in our life are clones and it is evolution. Every clone has advantage and disadvantage compare to another one and we choose what is better for each person. One thing can not 100% fit all. So everyday people change a small detail in regular things and it makes them newer and better.
If you think that only rolex can show you time - no problem, friend, work hard for years and years to buy original rolex. But personally for me - casio also works and I can accept them for my needs.

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $650 Shipped in US

Post by Samd » Dec 08, 2015 4:06 am

Its not an evolution. Its a deliberate design from first principles. By engineers. Using maths.
The geometry is pretty simple once you take a drafting board, spend time with riders and understand angles, falling rates, forks lengths, wheel diameters, spring rates.
A casio will produce the same result as a rolex.
However its a bad comparison, and not all bikes are the same.

A huffy doesn't equal a specialized. Who own most of the patents. Copy them at risk.
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eVelbike
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100 mW
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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $650 Shipped in US

Post by eVelbike » Dec 08, 2015 5:35 am

ok, Samd, if you want another comparison - hub motors are also very similar and all of them are not so perfect as tesla motor, but they work for their price.
I do not think that even one of Specialized brand bikes is usable for this design. Because the shock and links usually take place in frame that could be used for large battery. And if you are so professional in mtb designs - you may know that many bicycle brands use 4-bar suspension that was first used by Specialized, and all other companies just change links or position. But in fact they use same idea for make progressive or linear suspension and anti-squat or anti-rise effect and avoid kickback. And I really think that there was many good ideas while they modified idea of FSR. And Santacruz can say that VPP is their invention, Giant can say Maestro is their own invention. But the idea is the same. Their suspensions are much more complex compare to single bar like on these e-bikes, but the idea of EEB or Vector or Qulbix is different. These frames are made for DIYers, who want try to ride with different shocks, forks, wheels, mototrs, etc. And the most important thing - large battery box with good enough look.
And you may know that geometry works only with exact components such as wheels, fork, shock, etc. These frames deliver you middle dimensions that can be used with different components. Sure they can not be a racing machines like Specialized, but they can be used with different components, motors and batteries. I agree with you that Stealthelectricbikes maybe was the author of idea to make light electric motorcycle with pedals and bycicle components. But It was so many years ago and it is normally that another people do smth that looks similar, but do another. Stealth did not offered frames, as I know, they only offered bikes for 6-12000$. And they do evolution (Flux) only after Fazor, Raptor, Vector started to do that. So all of manufacturers and sellers do their job, friend, and it is good for customers when they can make their own choice.

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DasDouble
100 kW
100 kW
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Joined: Jul 12, 2015 1:35 pm
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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $650 Shipped in US

Post by DasDouble » Dec 08, 2015 7:50 am

eVelbike wrote:Sorry, friend, but I think your words are not true. You can not design the bike and it is not so hard as you explain. You compare electric motorcycle with mountain bikes, say something about suspension points - if say A , please say B. Now you just say that something is very bad, but it can understand only you. Other people who ride it - they enjoy,
the question is when they wont enjoy it anymore..^^ just think about a 2 year old Frame on a big jump...^^ I don´t want to test it haha :lol: :roll:
Well.. this will escalate for shure like this..:
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so my opinion is that it works, so the design is good enough . You say that someone stolen design. No, I am not agree with you.
So if you dont agree, so where my friend, does the design comes from? Have you developed the design? Have you tested if the Geometrie works after developing it? I don´t think so..
I think that many things in our life was made by someone at first, but later other companies used his idea in basis and added their vision how can it work better.


Yes thats true. But thats no excuse for copying a whole product without even changing anything then the sidecovers like you guys do.
And it is very good for customers, because they can make choice accordind to their needs. I think all frames - Flux, Vector, Qulbix, EEB have advantages and disadvantages. And the one of advantages is price. If Vector did not offered these frames with reasonable prices - stealth bikes would not offered their flux. So this is a competition. You said about mercedes... Do you really think that Mercedes is absolutely different from ford, Bmw, honda, Chrysler or else?
Well the main princip of a 4 wheels is the same yes. but they are so different, you won´t believe. Have you ever looked for a different thing of a Mercedes and a BMW? I don´t think so. Otherwise you wouldn´t have writen such thing. Maybe you need some glasses.
They use one idea - for wheels, metal cabine, engine, gearbox etc. Just different details. But all cars do their job. Look to the bicycles - hardtails are almost the same, just different details.
Look to the smartphones, I do not choose iphone, but my android phone looks very similar and I like it more than iphone. I do not believe you , SamD that you are so professional because you do not see the difference between all these frames. And I do not think that Flux is better than EEB, they are different and Flux also has disadvantages. All things in our life are clones and it is evolution.
No, they are not all clones. Your frame is a clone, yes. But for example Vector frame and a Stealth frame is not a clone. You have to discern between being inspired of something, and completely copying something, without even wanting to improve it.
Every clone has advantage and disadvantage compare to another one and we choose what is better for each person. One thing can not 100% fit all. So everyday people change a small detail in regular things and it makes them newer and better.
Well.. I can´t see any different on your frame than to Vector frame. Just the sidecovers are different. But that´s just it.
...
Highpower Ebike enthusiast.
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