Bomber Style Frame Set (EBB) Black - $500 - 2 left

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $650 Shipped in US

Post by Sean9002 » Dec 13, 2015 4:34 pm

John in CR wrote:Wow! I've never seen a for sale thread on ES degenerate like this. All this arguing about nothing when all the bikes of this type whether bought complete or as frame only get a CLONED HUBMOTOR installed, so they all get a cloned version of the most important part and to make matters worse, off road use is a totally ridiculous use of that cloned part and it makes suspension geometry discussion silly. I view Open Source as the single best concept of the modern era. Big companies use IP to squash the little guy innovators. Sure the innovators should and are generally compensated for their ideas and work, but in no way should the world's 1%ers be allowed to enrich themselves at the world's expense using protected IP. Knowledge and ideas should be shared freely with the world instead.
As a designer and artist I've had my own works copied by the Chinese (imagine your paintings being copied (POORLY) in a shithole factory and finding it on a shelf in a market). I take offense to the absolute lack of imagination the entire nation of china has. Even when they do try to 'create something' it winds up looking like that bubble car thing we flamed on Facebook; for obvious reasons. Open source does not allow the concept of theft of ideas for gain. John your a clever man, you cant honestly think that this is what open source means!? Sharing of information so many people can analyse it for the betterment of man kind, now I'm 100% behind that. Poorly replicating someones hardwork, without understanding what they have achieved, that's a pathetic aspiration and is why even as a wealthy nation, they still produce absolute shite!
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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $650 Shipped in US

Post by Powervelocity.com » Dec 16, 2015 7:24 pm

Here, ecycler, the chain ring side pic for you. I've put a couple hundred miles on the frame so far hitting over 50 mph and have zero concern about the frame geometry, welds or anything for that matter. It's rock solid.
I do have a concern about the tires as I've already had three flats. I'll be getting a moped 19 incher and a Shinko at least in the rear - should have done that in the first place.
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ecycler wrote:So this is the same frame that em3ev sells? Can you post some close up pics of the chainring side of the BB? Tough to see the welds very well under white paint and this lighting, but I will give them a B at first glance. I would entertain riding this thing around at 45-50mph, but I have also been known to take motorcycles north of 185mph...

John is dead right about cheap cloned motors ending up in all these bikes anyways, haha.

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $600 Shipped in US

Post by longwise_suck » Dec 19, 2015 2:54 pm

Has anyone one actually ridden a bike built from one of these frames? I am looking to buy one from em3v i have bought most of the bike so far i want it as a bomber clone that doesnt cost 12k

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $600 Shipped in US

Post by Powervelocity.com » Dec 20, 2015 1:54 am

Yep, riding it every day. Very good feeling to finally have a full suspension and not needing to figure out where to place the batteries, controller, and how to hide wires. I even installed the charger on board, and added an alarm system with GPS tracking and remote start. Pretty cool. Now, I need to figure out secure bolts for the side covers and I can confidently leave the bike in public places. That was my big concern when I had expensive 100v battery pack in a frame bag even though the bike itself was locked with the cable.

I was a bit tentative about the added weight of the steel but it actually helps with stability at higher speeds (40 and 50 mph) and does not really impact the range that much. I don't the weight penalty has been compensated by the more efficient motor (MXUS 4T v2 vs. H3525) and the smaller rim size (29'' vs 26'') but I am getting approximately the same mileage as on my older much lighter aluminum frame bike (45-50Wh/m at speeds around 30mph).

The only regret I have is not going with moped rims in the first place as I've already had three flats. That would make the bike even heavier but at this point it would be worth it. I will be re-lacing at least the motor in a 19'' moped rim and putting on a Shinko tire.

Yeah, this frame may not be a "rolex" like it's been alluded here (and, frankly, I don't know exactly what qualifiers are other that the price), but I don't think it pretends to be one and I was not looking for a rolex in the first place. It's just a solid steel frame with features that you would expect to find in a good ebike frame (battery space, strong dropouts, and added strength to cope with higher speeds and heavier weights). It's a "bomber on the budget". Well, if you budget is at least $2-3K if you go with cheap components and do most things yourself. I am sure I would have had approximately the same amount of fun with the real 14k Bomber/rolex/whaterver, but I would also have much more remorse about spending that kind of dough.

longwise_suck wrote:Has anyone one actually ridden a bike built from one of these frames? I am looking to buy one from em3v i have bought most of the bike so far i want it as a bomber clone that doesnt cost 12k

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $600 Shipped in US

Post by Artur » Dec 20, 2015 9:33 am

3.JPG
3.JPG (49.43 KiB) Viewed 1357 times
you should name this thread Vector Style Chinese frame. If you Look on a picture, you will understans why this is not Bomber clone..

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $600 Shipped in US

Post by DasDouble » Dec 20, 2015 10:18 am

@Artur: Agree.
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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $600 Shipped in US

Post by Powervelocity.com » Dec 20, 2015 1:28 pm

I didn't say this was a Bomber clone. I said it was a "Bomber style" and by that I meant it had a large (larger) capacity frame battery box and full suspension, yeah, and it's made of steel.

Not sure what the pictures were supposed to illustrate. Well, Vector is pictured first, so maybe: Bomber copied the Vector design and tried to get away with that by changing the shapes a bit?

If Vector claims the original rights for the frame design, it has to patent its unique ideas and then sue the damn copycats or whoever is behind the conspiracy against Vector. But I hear Vector itself borrowed the original design from someone else and now is hunting witches. This is not a good way to compete in the market - make your frame better/unique in some way, differentiate in a meaningful way, make me want to buy it. Don't make me puke every time you say "German quality" or other marketing nonsense.
Artur wrote:
3.JPG
you should name this thread Vector Style Chinese frame. If you Look on a picture, you will understans why this is not Bomber clone..

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $600 Shipped in US

Post by tomjasz » Dec 20, 2015 1:42 pm

Yawn. This discussion sure hasn't improved. EM3ev can keep their frame. Why, when there are designs that are arguably far more robust, better geometry, and just a few hundred more do we support these peckerwoods and their rip off designs. To often the price becomes the bottom line. Relax, save some more dollars and do it right, straight out of the gate, for a bit more money.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $600 Shipped in US

Post by Powervelocity.com » Dec 20, 2015 1:44 pm

So, any specific suggestions?
tomjasz wrote:Yawn. This discussion sure hasn't improved. EM3ev can keep their frame. Why, when there are designs that are arguably far more robust, better geometry, and just a few hundred more do we support these peckerwoods and their rip off designs. To often the price becomes the bottom line. Relax, save some more dollars and do it right, straight out of the gate, for a bit more money.

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $600 Shipped in US

Post by tomjasz » Dec 20, 2015 1:52 pm

Flux.

Done right. $1000
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Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $600 Shipped in US

Post by Powervelocity.com » Dec 20, 2015 5:42 pm

Flux is a great looking frame. I'll probably try it out one of these days. I like the fact that it's lighter and would probably be more nimble on off-road terrains especially if going the mid-drive route. 68mm BB is nice too. However, I also like to have all the battery space I can get for power and range and I think it's lacking here. Then there is almost 2x price premium, so it may be not worth it for me personally, but I realize it will work well for someone else and I don't feel an immediate urge to brand it garbage/ripoff/clone just because I spent money on something else or I am not selling it. I think it's a great frame. Ultimately, everyone has their priorities and budgets to go with, but I think it's great that we have this kind of variety to chose from.
tomjasz wrote:Flux.

Done right. $1000

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $600 Shipped in US

Post by Artur » Dec 20, 2015 7:03 pm

I like Flux frame design, and it is different than Vector frame, and Raptor frame, and any other. I am happy that there are many companies on a market that made they own design and by selling this frames they can invest money in improvements and prototyping new and new frames generation for YOU! We can do copy of any frame, and it will be cheaper, only because we didn't spend money on developing phase, but we don't do it because of what I said at the beginning. By buying Chinese copy frame you support just Chinese wallet and the wallet of person who stole initial design and construction of original product. Sure we can not compete with Chinese price as the manufacturing in China is much cheaper, and you can not go to court, because the international court process is long, expensive and don't give you any warranty if we are talking about China (there are always hundreds of fake copies of good quality brands and original companies can't do anything about it). We are not Apple or Samsung, to spend millions on this. But just think about, if not Vector - this chinese frame would not exist at all. And now you are saing just because it is cheaper it is right way to do business? Oh man.. I wish you to create at least something in your life investing your time, money and effort and to be copied by cheap chinese guy :P We do have changes comparing to our previous frame version (chinese copy made from it) to improve strength in a weak spots, but of coarce I won't tell about it here on forum, chinese will do the same in no time.. Only my long time clients know about them. From a customer point of view I do understand you, cheaper - better. But it is not always like this :)

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $600 Shipped in US

Post by Powervelocity.com » Dec 20, 2015 7:38 pm

Nope, i didn't say that - simply cheaper does not make it better. It's a combination of the price and what you are getting for your money. I also spoke with the developers of this frame and they are not Chinese. They are from the Eastern Europe like you are, probably someone you know very well. My guess is that you guys probably decided to go separate ways at some point. They do leverage the Chinese manufacturing like everybody else these days to keep the price competitive. However, they made it clear that they had not copied anything from Vector.
Artur wrote:I like Flux frame design, and it is different than Vector frame, and Raptor frame, and any other. I am happy that there are many companies on a market that made they own design and by selling this frames they can invest money in improvements and prototyping new and new frames generation for YOU! We can do copy of any frame, and it will be cheaper, only because we didn't spend money on developing phase, but we don't do it because of what I said at the beginning. By buying Chinese copy frame you support just Chinese wallet and the wallet of person who stole initial design and construction of original product. Sure we can not compete with Chinese price as the manufacturing in China is much cheaper, and you can not go to court, because the international court process is long, expensive and don't give you any warranty if we are talking about China (there are always hundreds of fake copies of good quality brands and original companies can't do anything about it). We are not Apple or Samsung, to spend millions on this. But just think about, if not Vector - this chinese frame would not exist at all. And now you are saing just because it is cheaper it is right way to do business? Oh man.. I wish you to create at least something in your life investing your time, money and effort and to be copied by cheap chinese guy :P We do have changes comparing to our previous frame version (chinese copy made from it) to improve strength in a weak spots, but of coarce I won't tell about it here on forum, chinese will do the same in no time.. Only my long time clients know about them. From a customer point of view I do understand you, cheaper - better. But it is not always like this :)

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $600 Shipped in US

Post by Artur » Dec 21, 2015 8:16 am

vadicus wrote: I also spoke with the developers of this frame
He is not developer of this frame design, the real developer is Pavlo "Chobotar", he started it in late 2010.

vadicus wrote: they are not Chinese. They are from the Eastern Europe like you are, probably someone you know very well.
He is from Ukraine, evelbike, he was working with Pavlo like I do for some time.
vadicus wrote: My guess is that you guys probably decided to go separate ways at some point.
You are wrong again here. He moved to China some time ago, and found the factory who will do this frame for him. I dont mind when somebody do any frame, anywhere, but not to earn money on other peoples hard developing work! This called stealing the idea, not "separate ways at some point".
vadicus wrote: However, they made it clear that they had not copied anything from Vector.
You need to be blind to say this. I have posted a picture few posts before. Can't you see they are 95% the same (yea, side covers are diferent, doe's it make him whole frame "developer" as you said), the whole metal structyre is copied.

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $600 Shipped in US

Post by Powervelocity.com » Dec 21, 2015 2:13 pm

Okay. Did you just admit that Vector had used Mr. Chobotar's original design? When you accuse someone in plagiarism, shouldn't you at least not do it yourself? Unless you paid the poor Ukrainian guy for the frame design and purchased exclusive rights to profit from his work, you would have no case to claim that someone copied your work simply because it's not your original work.

However, if Mr. Chobotar made his design open source for everyone to replicate and improve upon, you would still have no case to claim that someone copied your work simply because again it's not your original work.
Artur wrote:
vadicus wrote: I also spoke with the developers of this frame
He is not developer of this frame design, the real developer is Pavlo "Chobotar", he started it in late 2010.

vadicus wrote: they are not Chinese. They are from the Eastern Europe like you are, probably someone you know very well.
He is from Ukraine, evelbike, he was working with Pavlo like I do for some time.
vadicus wrote: My guess is that you guys probably decided to go separate ways at some point.
You are wrong again here. He moved to China some time ago, and found the factory who will do this frame for him. I dont mind when somebody do any frame, anywhere, but not to earn money on other peoples hard developing work! This called stealing the idea, not "separate ways at some point".
vadicus wrote: However, they made it clear that they had not copied anything from Vector.
You need to be blind to say this. I have posted a picture few posts before. Can't you see they are 95% the same (yea, side covers are diferent, doe's it make him whole frame "developer" as you said), the whole metal structyre is copied.

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $600 Shipped in US

Post by Artur » Dec 21, 2015 2:50 pm

Sorry, but you are truly idiot, we are working with Pavlo together! Where do you think all the original frame and accessories produced? We Just made Vector brand for outside Ukraine market 2 years ago, because "Chobotar" doesn't mean anything to non-Ukrainian speakers.

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $600 Shipped in US

Post by DasDouble » Dec 21, 2015 4:01 pm

Oh man, why can´t just this vadicous guy admit that he is copying the frame? Is it that hard? This guy reminds me of a classmate who gets caught cheating on a math-test who didn´t wanted to admit that he was cheating... Oh boy. :roll:
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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $600 Shipped in US

Post by longwise_suck » Dec 21, 2015 4:06 pm

who cares to be fair, frame is a frame live n let be

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $600 Shipped in US

Post by DasDouble » Dec 21, 2015 4:25 pm

longwise_suck wrote:who cares to be fair, frame is a frame live n let be
I care you idiot. Deutschland lebt von der Autoindustrie. Und diese wird tag ein, tag aus kopiert. Und eines Tages wird ein billiger Chinese auch deinen verdammten Job übernehmen. Wie zum Teufel kannst du also als Deutscher so etwas sagen, dass es egal ist, woher der Rahmen kommt?! Was ist denn los mit dir alter??? Es geht hier ums Prinzip. Und nicht um´s Geld. -.- :| :x

PS: Das ist das Prinzip deiner eigenen Zukunft, über die du so einfach redest.
Last edited by DasDouble on Dec 21, 2015 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $600 Shipped in US

Post by longwise_suck » Dec 21, 2015 4:39 pm

did some 12 year old just call me an idiot, k son, when daddy lets you be a man then be a man, until then shut your stupid mouth.

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $600 Shipped in US

Post by DasDouble » Dec 21, 2015 4:41 pm

longwise_suck wrote:did some 12 year old just call me an idiot, k son, when daddy lets you be a man then be a man, until then shut your stupid mouth.
Well a 12 years old guy from germany like you (nope, not really 12 years old), who has still a better grammar than you my friend. Do you even speak german or why does it say "Frankfurt" at your Location?
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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $600 Shipped in US

Post by Samd » Dec 21, 2015 5:01 pm

DasDouble wrote:
longwise_suck wrote:who cares to be fair, frame is a frame live n let be
I care you idiot. Deutschland lebt von der Autoindustrie. Und diese wird tag ein, tag aus kopiert. Und eines Tages wird ein billiger Chinese auch deinen verdammten Job übernehmen. Wie zum Teufel kannst du also als Deutscher so etwas sagen, dass es egal ist, woher der Rahmen kommt?! Was ist denn los mit dir alter??? Es geht hier ums Prinzip. Und nicht um´s Geld. -.- :| :x

PS: Das ist das Prinzip deiner eigenen Zukunft, über die du so einfach redest.
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I said it before. The hilarious thing about this thread is two pirates who keep dismissing stealing Stalth's design one hand, then come back constantly to argue about who copied the chinese/ukranian copy until the cows come home.
You couldn't invent this shit. Its hilarious.
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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $600 Shipped in US

Post by Artur » Dec 21, 2015 5:22 pm

:lol: I don't mind )) it's ok for me.. at the end of the day almost every well know European and American brand are copied in China , I guess it is they style of doing business haha. Good luck with frame :) for me was important that Ower 100 Vector owners from this forum know the difference, that's it :) I ask everybody to stay cool :) it's Christmas time .

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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $600 Shipped in US

Post by lumenpdx » Dec 21, 2015 7:12 pm

This is hilarious. Is everyone here new to the bike industry? Copying products has been going on since the beginning. It's nothing new, not in the slightest. The clones come along, more people buy them, the market segment grows, more money works it's way into everyone's pockets, and the market leaders innovate and push the segment forward. If they don't innovate, they fail. It's as simple as that.

Got a good product? Great! Leading the market? Better stay on your game or you're going to lose it. You can only fly the "we were first, we're the original, we're the best" flag for so long. Some companies manage to drag that out for a while, but in the end the market will vote with it's dollars.

And frankly, I'm not seeing anything new here. Monocoque frame design, low-pivot monoshock swing arms, etc... Between motorcycle and mountain bike frame design, this has *all* been done before. There's only so many designs that will accommodate a big box of batteries and a bunch of wheel travel in the back. You got a triangle, some way to bolt on a seat, and a swingarm. The basic configuration nearly draws itself. The only thing that's new here is that companies are actually, finally, building and selling these things to DIY eBike nerds. Yay!

More options, and growing market, will inevitably lead to more competition. Those with enough time to point fingers and throw around insults on the internet are going to get driven into the ground by those who are more focused on innovating, building, and selling.
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Re: Bomber Style Frame Set Black/White - $600 Shipped in US

Post by Samd » Dec 21, 2015 7:39 pm

I call bullshit. John's K unique design at stealth was first.
He's not some big corporation, just some guy from Melbourne. There were no monocoques before this.

Putting a battery in the downtube, top tube or anything else - lots of options there any plenty of them on here. But none of them come from China - too lazy for ideas.

So my question stands - who pays the bill for development?
Because team china is turning this into a commodity game with oh-so-boring copies.
Want to still be riding something that looks like a shitbox from eastern europe in twenty years? Good for you! I hope your job gets outsourced soon. Real soon.

My question stands, who pays for development then?
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