Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

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rumme
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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by rumme » Nov 01, 2017 10:22 am

madin88 wrote:
rumme wrote: Lets also remember that the BEST selling ebike of all time { Sondors} was a hub motor and he has manufactured a few more ebikes recently, all of which use hub motors. Hub motors are not going obsolete....
i
or with other words: while you could do easily wheelies on a mid-drive with 5kW, same bike equipped with a DD even may not at 10kw+ of input power.
So before you have not passed 60% of unloaded speed (just a rough number) the DD is more a toaster than a motor. Thats the point.

The fact that hub motor ebikes, easily outsell mid drives by a huge ratio, proves that most ebike riders do not feel they need so much torque, they must be able to pop wheelies.

Even if my current ebike could pop wheelies, I wouldn t do it....its un-neccesaary, unsafe and when done on a mid drive setup, puts ALOT of un-needed stress upon components that are already being stressed via the mid range motor drive system.

IMHO...the average person that wants to enter the ebike market , only needs a max of 1000- 1500 watts of power { hub motor} and 40-60 NM of torque. Such a setup will accomplish most of the goals your average ebiker desires , especially if they weigh under 200 lbs and will mostly be riding flat roadways , slight inclines. If the rider is willing to do some periodic pedaling, then 1000-1500 watts of hub motor power should be all they ever need , even if they chose to ride harsher dirt trails, larger hills.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by Buk___ » Nov 01, 2017 10:29 am

madin88 wrote:So before you have not passed 60% of unloaded speed (just a rough number) the DD is more a toaster than a motor. Thats the point.
Warning:Nothing more than speculation!

The unloaded speed of a motor is (roughly) linear to the input voltage.
Most motors will run quite happily from a range of input voltages.

If for low-speed/climbing, the controller PWM'd at a lower voltage; and only upped the voltage once the motor was approaching the peak efficiency at the lower voltage, more amps would be converted to work than heat!?

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by madin88 » Nov 01, 2017 12:24 pm

Buk___ wrote:
madin88 wrote:So before you have not passed 60% of unloaded speed (just a rough number) the DD is more a toaster than a motor. Thats the point.
Warning:Nothing more than speculation!
No speculation at all, it is math and physics.
The losses can be easy calculated by comparing the phase-to-phase resistance of given motors.
You'll find out that DD hub motors have many times higher resistance compared to geared hub motors or mid-drive setups.
A modern 3kg motor spinning at high RPM with 1:5 reduction will eat one 13kg hub motor for breakfast when accelerating hard or climbing steep hills :wink:

Now back to the topic. The SurRon is a mid-drive bike and for most potential buyers thats wanted, not a hub drive.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by skeetab5780 » Nov 01, 2017 12:27 pm

Look at the bright side Golden Motor will finally start increasing sales of their pancake motors!

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by dirkdiggler » Nov 01, 2017 2:09 pm

Just because people don't agree with you about this ebike, doesn't mean they are crazy. I would never buy this item because I am 6ft 6" tall and the frame is to small for me. I also don't like how loud it is, compared to my hub motor ebike , or that this doesn't have pedals. I got $3000 in my ebike that is a 72 volt - 26.4 AH battery with samsung cells , full suspension , and can do 55 mph top speed. It would be illogical for me to spend $3000 on the Sur-ron, then be uncomfortable on its small frame and need to spend another $1000 or more dollars on upgrades to get it to perform similar to my ebike . Then you have the issue of what to do with the parts you took off the Sur-ron and upgraded. Used ebike parts do not sell very well . I had a $ 140 LYEN controller that was like new , and only got $ 70 for it shipped.
I don't care if people disagree with me. Most do. For you to come crap on a thread because it doesn't fit your wants is just stupid, especially on a group buy thread. Its called trolling. Go somewhere else if you want to argue about things unrelated to this bike. I follow this thread because it is what I want and I don't want to hear someone bitch that the bike isn't what they want.
Used bike parts that are crappy don't sell well. Bike dealers tear down brand new bikes and sell for parts all the time. They make money doing it. Your Walmart bike parts aren't going to sell.
Again the frame size is like any other bike out there. Same as LMX, Stealth, Neematic or EEB. It is not a small frame - quit saying that it is. I would respect your opinion if you had the bike and knew, but you don't. It might not be what size you need at 6'6" but you are an outlier on height, 99% of the population is smaller than you. I wouldn't bitch if I was 3 ft tall that the stealth frame is too big for me. Stupid!
I'm sure your Yescom motor is doing fantastic for you, and does what you want. It would crap out the moment I hit a 10ft jump and your frame would bust in half on the first drop. Or try to take it up a small hill at low speeds and watch the smoke come out of the hub, I know from experience. Don't need to rehash the whole hub vs mid issues, we all know them. Depends on what you want to do with your bike.
The only thing I've heard from a real rider of this bike is "friggin awesome".
Anyway, quit thread crapping! /rant

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by rumme » Nov 01, 2017 2:20 pm

dirkdiggler wrote:
Just because people don't agree with you about this ebike, doesn't mean they are crazy. I would never buy this item because I am 6ft 6" tall and the frame is to small for me. I also don't like how loud it is, compared to my hub motor ebike , or that this doesn't have pedals. I got $3000 in my ebike that is a 72 volt - 26.4 AH battery with samsung cells , full suspension , and can do 55 mph top speed. It would be illogical for me to spend $3000 on the Sur-ron, then be uncomfortable on its small frame and need to spend another $1000 or more dollars on upgrades to get it to perform similar to my ebike . Then you have the issue of what to do with the parts you took off the Sur-ron and upgraded. Used ebike parts do not sell very well . I had a $ 140 LYEN controller that was like new , and only got $ 70 for it shipped.
I don't care if people disagree with me. Most do. For you to come crap on a thread because it doesn't fit your wants is just stupid, especially on a group buy thread. Its called trolling. Go somewhere else if you want to argue about things unrelated to this bike. I follow this thread because it is what I want and I don't want to hear someone bitch that the bike isn't what they want.
Used bike parts that are crappy don't sell well. Bike dealers tear down brand new bikes and sell for parts all the time. They make money doing it. Your Walmart bike parts aren't going to sell.
Again the frame size is like any other bike out there. Same as LMX, Stealth, Neematic or EEB. It is not a small frame - quit saying that it is. I would respect your opinion if you had the bike and knew, but you don't. It might not be what size you need at 6'6" but you are an outlier on height, 99% of the population is smaller than you. I wouldn't bitch if I was 3 ft tall that the stealth frame is too big for me. Stupid!
I'm sure your Yescom motor is doing fantastic for you, and does what you want. It would crap out the moment I hit a 10ft jump and your frame would bust in half on the first drop. Or try to take it up a small hill at low speeds and watch the smoke come out of the hub, I know from experience. Don't need to rehash the whole hub vs mid issues, we all know them. Depends on what you want to do with your bike.
The only thing I've heard from a real rider of this bike is "friggin awesome".
Anyway, quit thread crapping! /rant
Wait a minute, weren't you the poster that basically insinuated that " anyone that did not agree with you, that this ebike was great" was " crazy " ?

By the way, I don't have a YESCOMUSA mnotor on my current 5kw ebike. So it seems like you are the one who talks a lot of " bullshit" ....Carry on.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by macribs » Nov 01, 2017 7:08 pm

I think people should voice their opinions even in a group buy thread. This thread got the most traction of the sur ron thread, so probably why you see even people from europe posting here.

I got no problem with sur ron bike. I think it is great that so many people will buy it. I simply stated why it was not the right bike for me at this point of time. First off, I am a huskey rider. I am struggling to loose weight and it is a slow but ongoing process. Still I need to face the truth about my weight and buy stuff that will work well for my weight.

My reason for giving my 2 cents was to possible getting traction for either a rolling chassis or better yet a plain frame. I know factory is set on selling complete bikes, but if they follow this thread or get enough people knocking asking for just the frame, who knows? Stealth was never gonna go frame only. Yet we now can have both versions as a frame kit, only difference is the badging.

If people don't ask, for sure sur ron will stick to their plans pushing complete bikes. Try to see why we posted here, it ain't that we are bashing the bike, hating on a new comer or trying to ruin a thread. It is because we hope we can bend things so that even more people get to enjoy a sur ron bike, without unnecessary up front cash for parts that will not be used.

In my age I should have a rather sound financial situation. But health issues, sick leaf and job relocation making me have 2 households put a strain on my budget. Life thought me to not spend money if I don't get my money's worth. And stocking even more parts that I will not use is just that. Unnecessary upfront costs that I don't need. Give me a frame only and I pay up tonite.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by motomoto » Nov 03, 2017 10:57 pm

I am going to try to get out of this US group buy gracefully. I no longer want to be a part of it. Yes, I do love the bike, and I would love to have aftermarket parts available for it when
its' owners are ready to upgrade. Even become a dealer if possible someday. To this point we have 5 persons interested ( I thought there would be more interest ) and it sounds like the company is
looking for a US distributor instead of servicing group buys. So Motomoto is letting the ES guys know today that if they want to do a group buy, someone else needs to step up and take over.

I am going to turn my Sur-ron bike into a hot rod. I was told by someone respectable that the motor they are using is only putting out 1/3 of its' potential power output. And he has ridden the bike.
The reason the motor is noisy is that the controller is sending a square wave to the motor. A sine wave controller would make the motor much quieter and tuned properly the motor could put out
out 2 to 3 times the power it currently does. I was told who to see that can dyno the bike and get a baseline reading. Then I will put an ASI controller on it, have it tuned as perfectly as possible, and
see what we have. The BMS might be the limiting factor with output current, but I will start by changing the controller to a state-of-the-art sine wave controller and get rid of the noise. If the
motor is quiet and the chain is the thing that makes the most noise I will make a belt kit to replace the chain. I also have plans to change the look of the bike. I think it needs a front fender because
it looks more like a motorcycle than a downhill bike.
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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by madin88 » Nov 04, 2017 9:32 am

motomoto wrote:I am going to turn my Sur-ron bike into a hot rod. I was told by someone respectable that the motor they are using is only putting out 1/3 of its' potential power output. And he has ridden the bike.
I second that! It should be good enough for much more peak power.
the continuous power?? It just needs temperature monitoring to be on the safe side.
The reason the motor is noisy is that the controller is sending a square wave to the motor. A sine wave controller would make the motor much quieter and tuned properly the motor could put out
out 2 to 3 times the power it currently does. I was told who to see that can dyno the bike and get a baseline reading. Then I will put an ASI controller on it, have it tuned as perfectly as possible, and
see what we have. The BMS might be the limiting factor with output current, but I will start by changing the controller to a state-of-the-art sine wave controller and get rid of the noise. If the
motor is quiet and the chain is the thing that makes the most noise I will make a belt kit to replace the chain. I also have plans to change the look of the bike. I think it needs a front fender because
it looks more like a motorcycle than a downhill bike.
I thought the noise is coming from the motor, and they revised it? But if the controller really is trapezoidal it is clear where the noise has it's origins.

Looking forward to see how it performs with the ASI controller. Yes the BMS or probably the whole battery should be swapped for something more capeable.
Much success for the conversion!

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by motomoto » Nov 04, 2017 11:53 am

I did my first dirt ride on the bike yesterday in Gorman, Ca. I ended up climbing a dirt road to the top of the mountain for 10 minutes straight at full throttle.
when I checked the motor for warmth I could barely feel any. It was about 75 degrees F. Crazy. Of course, if the motor is fed more amps, there will be more heat.

On the way down the mountain I saw a perfect spot for a moto track. I went there and tore it up for about 15 minutes. So much fun !! The dirt was perfect for doing
slide turns. The brakes work good and I got used to using the left side hand brake. You can come in really hot into the turn, lock up both brakes and power out in a slide.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by Aebrennan » Nov 04, 2017 3:20 pm

Thanks for the update.
It’s great to now know how they cope with a bit of stick.
Keep the info coming! Run times, charge times, brake/suspension performance etc
The reason I have ordered 48v versions as well is the cheaper bike was always intended for hotrodding!
The bikes coming to Australia should ship out this week, so hopefully I’ll have some more info regarding the updated bikes by Christmas.
I was told 2 bikes were sent to the USA did you only get the one?

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by devo1223 » Nov 04, 2017 3:35 pm

No problem motomoto. I understand. Please start a thread with your mods. I would very much like to follow your progress.
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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by DanGT86 » Nov 04, 2017 3:54 pm

Motomoto, what are your thoughts on the strength of the frame casting/forging quality? Are there any non-drive components you would be concerned about? Any serious design flaws or cost cutting like plastic suspension bushings instead of bearings?

I read an article that was attributing the low cost of this bike to the forged aluminum frame. When it comes to mysteriously cheap products from china I'm always a little freaked out by castings and forgings where I cant visually determine the quality. At least with welded steel and machined aluminum parts you can kinda see the quality and attention to detail.

Other than my concern about the materials, which is based on the "too good to be true price", this bike seems like a total game-changer! I really wish I hadn't spent thousands trying to basically build this same thing out of bicycles. I can't wait to see what you do with it. Thanks for jumping in and getting one to the forum.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by rumme » Nov 04, 2017 7:06 pm

DanGT86 wrote:Motomoto, what are your thoughts on the strength of the frame casting/forging quality? Are there any non-drive components you would be concerned about? Any serious design flaws or cost cutting like plastic suspension bushings instead of bearings?

I read an article that was attributing the low cost of this bike to the forged aluminum frame. When it comes to mysteriously cheap products from china I'm always a little freaked out by castings and forgings where I cant visually determine the quality. At least with welded steel and machined aluminum parts you can kinda see the quality and attention to detail.

Other than my concern about the materials, which is based on the "too good to be true price", this bike seems like a total game-changer! I really wish I hadn't spent thousands trying to basically build this same thing out of bicycles. I can't wait to see what you do with it. Thanks for jumping in and getting one to the forum.
And this is very important . Just what type of quality is the metal used for the frame / mounts, etc and will it be able to handle upgrades that it may not have been manufactured for. If they are selling them with a 48 volt setup to handle 2kw...will it be able to handle modifications to 72 volt / 84 volt and handle 5 kw or more without risking catastrophic failure. Keep in mind, Chinese metal is notorious for being less expensive for good reasons { decreased quality} . I view it as a gamble.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by motomoto » Nov 04, 2017 8:57 pm

I haven't jumped it yet, but I will with video.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by DanGT86 » Nov 04, 2017 9:44 pm

motomoto wrote:I haven't jumped it yet, but I will with video.
Awesome! Thats the best kind of research. Machinists are usually pretty tough critics of other people's manufacturing methods so if you are willing to jump it I'd consider that a pretty good review.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by madin88 » Nov 05, 2017 5:23 am

motomoto wrote: I haven't jumped it yet, but I will with video.
Keep in mind yo do beta tests so wear a helmet and motorcycle gear if you do jumps..
DanGT86 wrote: Motomoto, what are your thoughts on the strength of the frame casting/forging quality? Are there any non-drive components you would be concerned about? Any serious design flaws or cost cutting like plastic suspension bushings instead of bearings?
For the suspension linkage i would prefer "plastic" bushings. Check out the company Igus from Austria.
The 4-bar linkage on my Votec frame had needle bearings and after 1000km they where completely jammed.
I swapped them out for the igus iglidur bushings and the response is buttery smooth. no play and no wear so far :wink:

Also LMX is using them (or at least tried such) for the damper linkage:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/searc ... sf=msgonly

https://www.instagram.com/p/BUMsQsJgNmB/

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by DanGT86 » Nov 05, 2017 10:11 am

madin88 wrote: For the suspension linkage i would prefer "plastic" bushings. Check out the company Igus from Austria.
The 4-bar linkage on my Votec frame had needle bearings and after 1000km they where completely jammed.
I swapped them out for the igus iglidur bushings and the response is buttery smooth. no play and no wear so far :wink:

Also LMX is using them (or at least tried such) for the damper linkage:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/searc ... sf=msgonly

https://www.instagram.com/p/BUMsQsJgNmB/
Its not so much the plastic itself I'm worried about. I was using "plastic bushings" as shorthand to describe a more broad level of precision. For example, my Specialized full suspension bike has aluminum machined top-hats that all the bearings ride on. The bolt shanks are never the actual pivot surface. They only serve to hold the assembly together. All other pivots are on machined or ground high tolerance surfaces.

My wal-mart genesis on the other hand uses the low tolerance and out of round bolt shanks as pivots on crappy plastic top-hat shaped bushings. The bolt torque, if too much, can easily jam the whole pivot and the design doesn't isolate which surface pivots on what. So the bushings can ride on the rough bolt shank or they can spin in the aluminum bores. It's just not good design and the cheapest way to manufacture pivots. Non machined off the shelf bolt shanks are not suitable axles/pivots in my opinion. A small amount of play in a joint extended over the length of a swingarm feels like a mile of play when riding.

So what I am wondering is weather the Sur-Ron's construction is more like my specialized using all machined parts or my Genesis using low tolerance parts just to get by?

I would not be offended at all by high tolerance machined or ground parts rotating on properly engineered/formulated plastic.

It's my understanding that Motomoto owns a machine shop so I figured he would be a great judge of quality after a simple visual inspection of the bike.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by mikebermea » Nov 07, 2017 2:30 am

At $2500 + SHIPPING Id buy today but unfortunately the only place I could find them was at the link below. You can buy them for $5900-$6700; Free shipping to US but it takes 40 days. A group buy would be awesome if the price can be cut down that much.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Electri ... d9db&tpp=1

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by KalSteve » Nov 07, 2017 3:00 am

Great seeing them advertised on Aliexpress for $6k. Makes the value of the group buy at $4k delivered pretty good.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by MoonBassMan » Nov 07, 2017 3:27 am

mikebermea wrote:At $2500 + SHIPPING Id buy today but unfortunately the only place I could find them was at the link below. You can buy them for $5900-$6700; Free shipping to US but it takes 40 days. A group buy would be awesome if the price can be cut down that much.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Electri ... d9db&tpp=1
Aliexpress is the retail side of things. If you want wholesale prices search on Alibaba

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by Merlin » Nov 07, 2017 8:18 am

6000?
And still illegal?
That's more expensive then lmx and all others.
What happend to the 2350 dollar price + shipping?

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by skeetab5780 » Nov 07, 2017 9:06 am

Merlin wrote:6000?
And still illegal?
That's more expensive then lmx and all others.
What happend to the 2350 dollar price + shipping?
See what happens when you guys hype a product up, The price goes with it!

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by bionicon » Nov 07, 2017 10:11 am

skeetab5780 wrote:
Merlin wrote:6000?
And still illegal?
That's more expensive then lmx and all others.
What happend to the 2350 dollar price + shipping?
See what happens when you guys hype a product up, The price goes with it!
I thought the price was the hype :roll:

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by skeetab5780 » Nov 07, 2017 10:51 am

bionicon wrote:
skeetab5780 wrote:
Merlin wrote:6000?
And still illegal?
That's more expensive then lmx and all others.
What happend to the 2350 dollar price + shipping?
See what happens when you guys hype a product up, The price goes with it!
I thought the price was the hype :roll:
How much did you pay for yours? Who has actually paid for one besides Moto Arthur and maybe one other...

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