Great read on Pre-WWII electric submarines
- Thread starter flat tire
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This is a subject where I may be able to answer some questions. I had the pleasure of serving on a submarine during my enlistment from 1977-81. There were a few Korean-War era diesel-electric submarines (1950's) in use at the time for training, since they were actually very quiet when using the battery. Of course, after a short while, the diesels had to be run, and then they were no longer quiet. That being said, I served on a Sturgeon class nuclear-powered version, SSN-665, built in 1969.
The main battery was very large, and used flooded lead-acid cells. It was only used as a back-up, in case the main steam turbines had a problem. Just where the main shaft exited the rear of the vessel, there was a large clutch, and an electric motor.
If the ship was limping home without nuclear power, and the battery got low, there was a snorkel and a large diesel-generator that could help to extend it's range.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luxHswqFbKI
[youtube]luxHswqFbKI[/youtube]
The main battery was very large, and used flooded lead-acid cells. It was only used as a back-up, in case the main steam turbines had a problem. Just where the main shaft exited the rear of the vessel, there was a large clutch, and an electric motor.
If the ship was limping home without nuclear power, and the battery got low, there was a snorkel and a large diesel-generator that could help to extend it's range.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luxHswqFbKI
[youtube]luxHswqFbKI[/youtube]
MJSfoto1956
10 kW
spinningmagnets said:
Thank you for your service.
flat tire said:
And thanks for the link. Good reading.
LeftieBiker
100 kW
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That would make a great vehicle trivia question: "What was the first Nuclear/Diesel/Battery-Electric hybrid?"
I was in the Auxiliary division (A-Gang). Diesel, hydraulics, air-compressors, that sort of thing...
MJSfoto1956
10 kW
Well there is always the horrific story of the nuclear sub Thresher in 1963: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Thresher_(SSN-593)
...Also the USS Scorpion, sunk in 1968...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Scorpion_(SSN-589)
The USS Guitarro has the dubious distinction of having sunk next to the pier, just one day before it was to be commissioned in 1969. The water wasn't deep next to the pier, so the conning tower was still exposed. There was a miscommunication by the shipyard personnel that were testing the ballast tanks. It was tied up to the pier, and the deck hatches were open at the time. The shipyard lost their contract to build submarines, and hundreds lost their jobs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Guitarro_(SSN-665)
Nobody died, but the insurance paid roughly $25-million to gut the insides and reuse the hull, according to the 1970 edition of Guinness World Records...
After I left in 1981, I was told there was a battery fire at one point, but I don't know the cause or extent of the damage. Standard procedure would be to pop to the surface, ventilate the entire ship, and of course immediately isolate the battery compartment while engaging the battery fire suppression system. The ships battery (1969 tech) was flooded lead-acid at 252VDC nominal, and it was about the volume of a 3-bedroom apartment.
I guess the most exciting thing to happen was that one time we went on a patrol out of Hawaii, and we picked up the sound of a submarine nearby that was not from the US. We followed for a short while and they suddenly surfaced. We gently went to periscope depth and got some pics of the hatches open with smoke coming out. I assume they had a fire, but don't know any details. Naval intelligence would be sent the audio tape to examine the sound to identify the nationality and the class of submarine.
For those who are curious about WWII submarines, I recall touring a German one at the Chicago museum of Science and Industry, and I've also seen the US one at the Baltimore inner harbor. I'm sure it would be easy to find others by searching the web...
The USS Guitarro has the dubious distinction of having sunk next to the pier, just one day before it was to be commissioned in 1969. The water wasn't deep next to the pier, so the conning tower was still exposed. There was a miscommunication by the shipyard personnel that were testing the ballast tanks. It was tied up to the pier, and the deck hatches were open at the time. The shipyard lost their contract to build submarines, and hundreds lost their jobs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Guitarro_(SSN-665)
Nobody died, but the insurance paid roughly $25-million to gut the insides and reuse the hull, according to the 1970 edition of Guinness World Records...
After I left in 1981, I was told there was a battery fire at one point, but I don't know the cause or extent of the damage. Standard procedure would be to pop to the surface, ventilate the entire ship, and of course immediately isolate the battery compartment while engaging the battery fire suppression system. The ships battery (1969 tech) was flooded lead-acid at 252VDC nominal, and it was about the volume of a 3-bedroom apartment.
I guess the most exciting thing to happen was that one time we went on a patrol out of Hawaii, and we picked up the sound of a submarine nearby that was not from the US. We followed for a short while and they suddenly surfaced. We gently went to periscope depth and got some pics of the hatches open with smoke coming out. I assume they had a fire, but don't know any details. Naval intelligence would be sent the audio tape to examine the sound to identify the nationality and the class of submarine.
For those who are curious about WWII submarines, I recall touring a German one at the Chicago museum of Science and Industry, and I've also seen the US one at the Baltimore inner harbor. I'm sure it would be easy to find others by searching the web...
Hillhater
100 TW
Yes, there is a decomissioned diesel sub in Sydney Maritime Museum (moored in the harbour)
I have also toured the German U boat (U505) in Chicago Museam ( in in the basement !).. which is dry stored and access doors cut in it for tours.
Out of the water, and in an enclosed room, its size is impressive.
Well worth an hour or two on a quiet ,wet,cold, etc..day
There is a story board of how that Uboat was captured and eventually moved and installed in the Museum
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-505
I have also toured the German U boat (U505) in Chicago Museam ( in in the basement !).. which is dry stored and access doors cut in it for tours.
Out of the water, and in an enclosed room, its size is impressive.
Well worth an hour or two on a quiet ,wet,cold, etc..day
There is a story board of how that Uboat was captured and eventually moved and installed in the Museum
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-505
Hillhater
100 TW
Just to add a related story..
Australia has an aging fleet of “Colins” class diesel subs and are currently planning replacements.
Now, any logical defence force would select the latest Nuclear powered subs, which are available practically “off the shelf” from several proven builders ..Japan, UK, USA, France, Etc, ...BUT..
Australia has a “Moritorium” (Ban !) on any nuclear devices,..so Nuke subs are a no no !
So you would think , OK select a proven Diesel Electric design, which are also readily available ?
But , again NO, after much tendering, negotiating , debating etc etc what have we selected ??
...only a Nuclear powered design which we shall have heavily modified to actually be Diesel /Electric powered ! :lol:
Of course this has taken 10+ years and still no metal cut yet, and cost billions of $$s (currently estimated at $80-$120 bn ,..for 12 subs..of which the first one may be commissioned in 2025 !
All due to Political interferance into what should have been a Defence Procurement exercise.
Australia has an aging fleet of “Colins” class diesel subs and are currently planning replacements.
Now, any logical defence force would select the latest Nuclear powered subs, which are available practically “off the shelf” from several proven builders ..Japan, UK, USA, France, Etc, ...BUT..
Australia has a “Moritorium” (Ban !) on any nuclear devices,..so Nuke subs are a no no !
So you would think , OK select a proven Diesel Electric design, which are also readily available ?
But , again NO, after much tendering, negotiating , debating etc etc what have we selected ??
...only a Nuclear powered design which we shall have heavily modified to actually be Diesel /Electric powered ! :lol:
Of course this has taken 10+ years and still no metal cut yet, and cost billions of $$s (currently estimated at $80-$120 bn ,..for 12 subs..of which the first one may be commissioned in 2025 !
All due to Political interferance into what should have been a Defence Procurement exercise.
Dauntless
100 TW
Downed subs, one of the most famous was the USS Squalus, renamed Sailfish after the recovery. More than half the crew was rescued from the depths by the McCann Rescue Chamber.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Sailfish_(SS-192)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCann_Rescue_Chamber
That's a favorite story of mine from when I was a kid, this was the handiwork of one Charles Momsen, thought to be the inspiration for the Admiral Nelson character in 'Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea.' This is the Officer of the Day who authorized the sinking of the Japanese minisub by the destroyer Ward just as Pearl Harbor was about to be bombed, if you know the stories of the one officer trying to warn the higher ups what was about to happen, that's the guy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Momsen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Sailfish_(SS-192)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCann_Rescue_Chamber
That's a favorite story of mine from when I was a kid, this was the handiwork of one Charles Momsen, thought to be the inspiration for the Admiral Nelson character in 'Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea.' This is the Officer of the Day who authorized the sinking of the Japanese minisub by the destroyer Ward just as Pearl Harbor was about to be bombed, if you know the stories of the one officer trying to warn the higher ups what was about to happen, that's the guy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Momsen
jonescg
100 MW
It does surprise me somewhat that the battery part of an electric submarine isn't more advanced than a backup / stealth mode feature. When transiting, I presume they spend most of their time on the surface?
In WWII there was a lot of momentum to obsolete design theory on all sides. Old designs were already in production, and the war wasn't going to last long, right? The 5-inch deck gun (firing shells with a 5" diameter slug) was cheap and the shells did not take up much room. Torpedoes were very expensive, and once you were out of them, you had to go all the way back to a US Navy base. If an enemy cargo ship was disabled by a torpedo, but not sunk...it would be cheaply finished off by the deck gun.
However, that gun plus the wood-slatted deck created a LOT of drag (the pressure-hull is a cylinder, the wood deck is flat). Speed was roughly twice as fast on the surface because the bottom half of the sub was smooth.
Typical patrol behavior would be to cruise on the surface 24/7 with two lookouts and an officer on the conning tower. They would run on the surface for days with the diesels running constantly to propel the sub, and to keep the main battery topped-off. If they saw a surveillance plane they would dive immediately to periscope depth for protection, and wait till he was gone (running on precious battery capacity alone)...
The Earth's surface is curved (of course), and through high-powered binoculars, you can see the enemies' radar mast spinning on the very top of a ship before you see any of the rest of the ship (I've seen this on exercises, so I believe the Earth is not flat). The US war activity in the Atlantic in WWII was mostly about getting supplies to England, and avoiding or attacking German subs with planes and destroyer-ships.
The majority of the US's WWII submarine activity was focused on disrupting Japan's supply ships to their scattered bases around the south-west Pacific, and specifically sinking their warships. Most cargo-ships and warships were faster than a submarine, even when the sub was on the surface. All subs of that era were real pigs as soon as they submerged because of the cluttered deck. They had to patrol a common shipping path, and hope a zig-zagging cargo ship would pass by, headed somewhat towards them. Convoys were often escorted by a destroyer, which is a fast and small anti-submarine ship (2300 tons, 350 ft long, 250 crew).
The Germans were the first to experiment with using a snorkel during the war (due to heavy losses from attacking aircraft). With a snorkel, the diesels could be run at periscope depth as soon as an enemy aircraft was spotted, and the US copied them immediately.
Near the end of the war, the Germans had developed the elektroboot class (too late to help). The US, UK, and Russia all copied it for their Korean-war era submarines. The elektroboots had a snorkel, and also their upper half was as smooth as the lower half (no deck gun). They would still run on the surface to be able to spot an enemy or a potential target as soon as possible. But when they submerged, their speed was as fast as it had been on the surface, allowing a better chance at escape (along with a larger battery than before). When running the diesels at snorkel-depth, the radar on a plane could not spot them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektroboot
One of the most dangerous times for a WWII submarine was running on the surface at night. If a planes' radar picked you up, it could attack the sub before it had a chance to submerge, and the sub couldn't see it coming.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leigh_Light
After the advent of nuclear power, the immediate primary benefit was the ability to constantly run underwater very quietly. Diesels are loud, and they need air, which chains the sub to the surface. The noise tells the enemy that you are there, and roughly where you are...
However, that gun plus the wood-slatted deck created a LOT of drag (the pressure-hull is a cylinder, the wood deck is flat). Speed was roughly twice as fast on the surface because the bottom half of the sub was smooth.
Typical patrol behavior would be to cruise on the surface 24/7 with two lookouts and an officer on the conning tower. They would run on the surface for days with the diesels running constantly to propel the sub, and to keep the main battery topped-off. If they saw a surveillance plane they would dive immediately to periscope depth for protection, and wait till he was gone (running on precious battery capacity alone)...
The Earth's surface is curved (of course), and through high-powered binoculars, you can see the enemies' radar mast spinning on the very top of a ship before you see any of the rest of the ship (I've seen this on exercises, so I believe the Earth is not flat). The US war activity in the Atlantic in WWII was mostly about getting supplies to England, and avoiding or attacking German subs with planes and destroyer-ships.
The majority of the US's WWII submarine activity was focused on disrupting Japan's supply ships to their scattered bases around the south-west Pacific, and specifically sinking their warships. Most cargo-ships and warships were faster than a submarine, even when the sub was on the surface. All subs of that era were real pigs as soon as they submerged because of the cluttered deck. They had to patrol a common shipping path, and hope a zig-zagging cargo ship would pass by, headed somewhat towards them. Convoys were often escorted by a destroyer, which is a fast and small anti-submarine ship (2300 tons, 350 ft long, 250 crew).
The Germans were the first to experiment with using a snorkel during the war (due to heavy losses from attacking aircraft). With a snorkel, the diesels could be run at periscope depth as soon as an enemy aircraft was spotted, and the US copied them immediately.
Near the end of the war, the Germans had developed the elektroboot class (too late to help). The US, UK, and Russia all copied it for their Korean-war era submarines. The elektroboots had a snorkel, and also their upper half was as smooth as the lower half (no deck gun). They would still run on the surface to be able to spot an enemy or a potential target as soon as possible. But when they submerged, their speed was as fast as it had been on the surface, allowing a better chance at escape (along with a larger battery than before). When running the diesels at snorkel-depth, the radar on a plane could not spot them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektroboot
One of the most dangerous times for a WWII submarine was running on the surface at night. If a planes' radar picked you up, it could attack the sub before it had a chance to submerge, and the sub couldn't see it coming.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leigh_Light
After the advent of nuclear power, the immediate primary benefit was the ability to constantly run underwater very quietly. Diesels are loud, and they need air, which chains the sub to the surface. The noise tells the enemy that you are there, and roughly where you are...
Dauntless
100 TW
jonescg said:
The WWII subs were much faster on the surface. It was the previously mentioned Charles Momsen that got the serious development of underwater speed and maneuverability done with a target sub intended to train the sonar operators. The navy really wasn't interested in advancing the submarine at the time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Albacore_(AGSS-569)
Dauntless
100 TW
So how do submarines hunt one another?
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/navy-ships/a28724/submarine-sonar-soks/
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/navy-ships/a28724/submarine-sonar-soks/
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