Please Recommend An Inexpensive High-Power Motor For A Car..

[The Mighty Volt]

......conversion job.

The car in question is a BMW 3 series, 1.6 engine, or a Mercedes/Volvo equivalent

We are happy to buy 2nd hand if necessary, or from China, what sort of voltage should we be looking for? We want this for moderate range, 40 miles or so between charges, and wheel-spin fun.

Should we avoid a 3-Phase Induction, or try something else???

Budget is around $5000

Thanks, Good Luck.

[TylerDurden]

Here is a good place to start:

http://www.evalbum.com/type/BMW

http://www.evalbum.com/type/VOLV

[The Mighty Volt]

Here is a good place to start:

http://www.evalbum.com/type/BMW

http://www.evalbum.com/type/VOLV

Cheers man we will check those out.

I am selling all my bike gear, batteries, etc.....we are going into the car full time.

[amberwolf]

The only real problem with brushless motors in cars is it seems difficult ot find inexpensive *reliable* controllers at the power levels you need for a car. Motors can be found cheap, in various EVs in junkyards and stuff. Often the controllers may be with them too but you wind up with the problem of reverse-engineering the controller to figure out a way to run it and to fake the sensor inputs to it so it will run without all the rest of the car it came from. Some poeple have even found ones from large buses and whatnot, for not too expensive...I just don't know if they ever got the controllers working.


DIY Electric car has a couple of good conversions of BMWs. One is by Crodriver, of course. But it is meant for a racer and not quite what you're after. The other is by JackBauer, over in Ireland, IIRC. It's probably like what you are trying to do.

[E-racer]

Is $5k just for the motor/controller?

[TylerDurden]

You can find entire EVs for about $5,000usd, but they might need work and/or batteries.

http://www.evtradinpost.com/

[The Mighty Volt]

Is $5k just for the motor/controller?

Yes, probably.

We need then to address the issue of the battery.

We want to build a car that is safe, reliable and always runs.

Top end is not a worry, but the kid brother wants to wheelspins. Probably 90Mph, 0-60mph in 6-7 seconds.

[The Mighty Volt]

You can find entire EVs for about $5,000usd, but they might need work and/or batteries.

http://www.evtradinpost.com/

Thanks Tyler. I have learned a lot working on the bikes, my brother is a fully qualified mechanic, and is re-training as an engineer. He works in an American Multi-National factory over here, they have a full tool-shop so we are hoping to cover all the bases.

We will probably be starting from scratch rather than undoing somebody elses work.

[The Mighty Volt]

The only real problem with brushless motors in cars is it seems difficult ot find inexpensive *reliable* controllers at the power levels you need for a car. Motors can be found cheap, in various EVs in junkyards and stuff. Often the controllers may be with them too but you wind up with the problem of reverse-engineering the controller to figure out a way to run it and to fake the sensor inputs to it so it will run without all the rest of the car it came from. Some poeple have even found ones from large buses and whatnot, for not too expensive...I just don't know if they ever got the controllers working.


DIY Electric car has a couple of good conversions of BMWs. One is by Crodriver, of course. But it is meant for a racer and not quite what you're after. The other is by JackBauer, over in Ireland, IIRC. It's probably like what you are trying to do.

Yeah I saw Cro's car, my brother can match him for engineering and mechanics, but not for finances. I will check out JackBauer. Thanks for the heads-up.

[Hillhater]

I assume you are aware of Jack Rickards blog ..EVTV..?
http://www.evtv.me/
Like him or not, there is a lot of good info on there.

[The Mighty Volt]

I assume you are aware of Jack Rickards blog ..EVTV..?
http://www.evtv.me/
Like him or not, there is a lot of good info on there.

Thanks Hillhater. I have heard of Jack Rickards, and his theories on BMS, which I am in part-agreement with.

Information is information, as long as it is factually correct, I am cool.

Would you believe, Jack Bauer has a video on youtube of him driving electric BMW........right past my village.

I cannot wait to get started.

One thing I want for the car is a dedicated display which shows me the voltage of each string, like a Cell-Log would do, except with a big display, and a switch to kill it so it doesn't drink too many amp-hours.

I have a fetish for watching battery packs under sag.

I have a

[Brentis]

Is $5k just for the motor/controller?

Yes, probably.

We need then to address the issue of the battery.

We want to build a car that is safe, reliable and always runs.

Top end is not a worry, but the kid brother wants to wheelspins. Probably 90Mph, 0-60mph in 6-7 seconds.

Evalbum is great place to study cage conversions.

As for motor/controller. I recommend.
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/ac-50.html
I think you will find that this combo is the best bang for your buck,
There are Euro sellers of this combo, but you will pay a lil' more.
Anything less than that, will be weaksauce.

If you require 0-60 in 6-7sec, you would need pair that combo @ minimum.
Ala http://www.evalbum.com/1396

AC paired up..jpg (46.04 KiB) Viewed 1904 times

Good luck on your project.
I dream of the day I have the funds to go from bike to car conversions.

[Jozzer]

That wont get you wheel spinning power really, if your on a budget you want a big old series motor. Look at the Netgain or Kostov motors.
I've got an 11" Kostov 250v motor with a Soltiton controller, fits your budget and makes tons of power (I've gotten 250KW into it with a stiff battery pack).
You could go with a 9" and a 500A Soliton jnr for a cheaper/lighter setup - though continuous power will be down a good bit.

There's no AC setup in that price range that will give you tyre slipping torque..

Steve

[liveforphysics]

Yes. Jozzer nailed this question. Brushed series wound DC is definitely the smart option here for a budget performance EV with reliability.



Also, don't take this the wrong way Mighty-Volt, but seldom have we even seen such poor mechanical and electrical skills on a member here. You might not like the idea of buying a conversion someone else made... but from your past work, it seems like it would be a really really good option if you want to actually end up with more than a pile of rusting parts.

[The Mighty Volt]

No problem LFP, I am actually in agreement with you- although I am not entirely responsible for the mechanical/electrical end of things here- more the encouragement and the getting of information. And a large part of the financing. Its an important "part" of the process. That said I have improved a good bit since my last bit of solder-wicking. That was almost two years ago. I've built 2 electric BMX's since then. Full suspension. I am on a steep learning curve. When I first came here I knew nothing. Absolutely nothing. Duct-tape and 700w motors. Yee-Ha.

Basically, I am the impetus behind the car. My brother and his friends- they are well capable of this project- they just don't know it. Before last Summer, the guys I was working with were poo-pooing the whole idea. I gave them a shot on a BMX at 72v with a 5305 in a 20" wheel at 65Amps nominal. You give a guy 120lb-ft of torque and now nobody talks about electric motors being crap or getting bogged down. Our friends in the Arabian Gulf did the rest, with their dummy oil prices. Basically, Its up to me to come up with some cash, and to keep the other guys motivated. If we get stuck, I get online and start asking questions. I don't doubt its a long term process. All my life we were always on the arse-end of the curve in Ireland, always 10 years or more behind the rest of the World, time for that to change. 3 years ago, if some guy came on the TV with some electric vehicle I would have been all over it, now I recognize it for the over-priced crap that it is.

[Brentis]

That wont get you wheel spinning power really, if your on a budget you want a big old series motor. Look at the Netgain or Kostov motors.
I've got an 11" Kostov 250v motor with a Soltiton controller, fits your budget and makes tons of power (I've gotten 250KW into it with a stiff battery pack).
You could go with a 9" and a 500A Soliton jnr for a cheaper/lighter setup - though continuous power will be down a good bit.

There's no AC setup in that price range that will give you tyre slipping torque..

Steve

Right you are.
I think I read something that wasnt there. (An A.C. requirement. )
Cant really beat an old brushed motor for Bang for your buck.
Heck, if your patient and peruse the ads, you can find a motor for next to nothing. Build an open source controller &
you could do it for $500-$1000 if you get real lucky/are crafty & away you go.
Just an example of a cheap 9" brushed motor
http://www.evtradinpost.com/item/297


Not cheap, but expense is relative.
http://www.evtradinpost.com/item/277
First time I have seen one of these combos hit the second hand/used market.
Geared right, in a light enough vehicle & you'd have burnouts & efficiency.

[The Mighty Volt]

Hi Brentis, thanks for your recommendations and your time.

I've been reading about AC Induction a lot, these Brushed DC options, how reliable are they? How long can I expect Brushes to last??

Thanks again.

[E-racer]

I wonder if anyone has used a wrecked Tesla Roadster as a donor for an EV conversion.

[The Mighty Volt]

I wonder if anyone has used a wrecked Tesla Roadster as a donor for an EV conversion.

I am sure there is somebody out there who plans to do something with one of them. I am afraid of non-LiFePo4 chemistry myself and would not trust myself to work with it or be comfortable asking people to be around it. I know that is anathema to the general hard-core ES community, but what the hell, smarter and better guys than me are working with LiFePo4.

Maybe a big fat brushed motor with a basic controller is where we need to start. If you guys feel so, then that is what I will do.

[fechter]

A big brushed motor will probably be the most economical and the brush maintenance is not too difficult or expensive.

One other possible option would be to use a large industrial induction motor and surplus VFD. The VFD controllers are pretty common on eBay. These are designed to run off AC line power, but the first thing they go through is a full wave rectifier to make DC. In an EV, you can simply bypass this first stage. Most high powered VFD drives are made for 480 VAC, so rectified, that's a pretty high voltage. If you search, you can find ones made for 240V, but I think it would be easy enough to make one run on about any voltage since the only real difference is the little power supply that runs the microprocessor and gate drivers, which you would need to change anyway. The current rating is what you need to look at.

These things are typically pretty huge, but the 'guts' could be repackaged into a smaller box and you can leave out the input rectifier part.

The HP rating of a motor at 50 or 60Hz will be multiplied many times with a VFD drive, as the frequency usually tops out around 400Hz or more. Nearly any 3 phase induction motor can be used as long as the current ratings are observed.

I think some guys have tried this and from what I can tell it works quite well but a fair amount of hacking is required.

[Brentis]

Hi Brentis, thanks for your recommendations and your time.

I've been reading about AC Induction a lot, these Brushed DC options, how reliable are they? How long can I expect Brushes to last??

Thanks again.

Cheers.

In general, Brushed motors are as reliable as the amount of power you put to them
The harder you run them, the hotter they get. Excess heat will use up the brushes quickly.
As evidenced in Emoto racing, sustained high power "burns" up the brushed bikes Agni, Perm, Etek, etc.

If you are looking for a street/commuter car, that can do burnouts.
A big brushed motor will do fine. Especially if you utilize a manual gearbox.
Quite a few conversion use only 2 3 4 gears.
1st applies to much toque & spins

The ? you should think about & decide.
And I believe to be most important, is the "Roller"
What vehicle do you want to convert? & why?
That will start to determine how much power you will need for 0-60 in 6-7sec & 90mph.
& which motor/controller/battery combo can achieve the goals.

Good luck on your journey

[The Mighty Volt]

Hi Brentis, thanks for your recommendations and your time.

I've been reading about AC Induction a lot, these Brushed DC options, how reliable are they? How long can I expect Brushes to last??

Thanks again.

Cheers.

In general, Brushed motors are as reliable as the amount of power you put to them
The harder you run them, the hotter they get. Excess heat will use up the brushes quickly.
As evidenced in Emoto racing, sustained high power "burns" up the brushed bikes Agni, Perm, Etek, etc.

If you are looking for a street/commuter car, that can do burnouts.
A big brushed motor will do fine. Especially if you utilize a manual gearbox.
Quite a few conversion use only 2 3 4 gears.
1st applies to much toque & spins

The ? you should think about & decide.
And I believe to be most important, is the "Roller"
What vehicle do you want to convert? & why?,
That will start to determine how much power you will need for 0-60 in 6-7sec & 90mph.
& which motor/controller/battery combo can achieve the goals.

Good luck on your journey

Hi Brentis, thanks for your information and for your compliments. Right now we do have a 4WD Mitsubishi Lancer, designed for a 1.8 Turbo engine, so the gearbox in that should be pretty strong. It is manual.

Why do we want to convert? Very simple......Ireland is always behind. Always last. Time for people here to start being first instead of being behind all the time. That and the gas prices. Gas is just too damn expensive and I don't like paying money to scummy bastards either. Wahhabi Sheikhs, Oil Companies......

I want my brother to have a good motor that can be easily charged and give him rubber-burning power. People say "why the need for power"- well when I was converting these guys to electricity, lets just say a 24v geared front-hub wouldn't have had much impact, right? I converted them with a 72v X5305 at 65A in a 20" rim. Now they want to know more about these vehicles and what they can produce.

My brother and his work-pals are talented people. They know talented people. They can CAD, fabricate, cut, weld, mill, mount, mate just about anything. All I have to do is come up with the simplest and most cost-effective system. Right now, after this discussion, it sounds like headways with some A123 somewhere in the middle to give those extra amps. I think Jozz did that on his bikes. He didn't mix chemistry, merely different C-rates of same.

Headways and a great big brushed motor. Sounds like a plan.

[The Mighty Volt]

A big brushed motor will probably be the most economical and the brush maintenance is not too difficult or expensive.

Hi Fechter, thanks for your contribution. Yes, at this point in time, a that combination of factors sounds like the simplest routine.

I would have to discount the VFD option simply because we have enough work cut out dealing with the basic electro-mechanical issues without adding more work in the form of hacking and controller modification etc. But thanks for the heads up in any case.

[Harold in CR]

+1 on the Jack Bauer guy. He makes controllers, makes high amperage chargers, has a couple EV's running, AND, seems to be the king of scrounge. I believe he is presently into an AC conversion. DIYelectriccar.com is his usual hangout, besides the ecomodder site. He is always advising guys on these sites. You would benefit greatly from the DIYelectriccar site, also.

I can't imagine a better person for you to contact, being IN Ireland and all.

[The Mighty Volt]

+1 on the Jack Bauer guy. He makes controllers, makes high amperage chargers, has a couple EV's running, AND, seems to be the king of scrounge. I believe he is presently into an AC conversion. DIYelectriccar.com is his usual hangout, besides the ecomodder site. He is always advising guys on these sites. You would benefit greatly from the DIYelectriccar site, also.

I can't imagine a better person for you to contact, being IN Ireland and all.

Would you believe that this gentleman also lives what appears, from his videos, to be minutes from me???

I am putting together a message for him as we speak.

Many thanks Harold.