JD's VW Bus Conversion EV project (2 of 2)

[Doctorbass]

JD.. This forum ia a very nice place to learn about EV!!

You just can't imagine how many people i refer to our forum!

What is imoprtant is that you correctly understand what we explain.. otherwise it mean we(guru) don't do our job correctly!!

Good evening!

Doc

[echas]

JD,

You did a really great job with the conversion and this forum! I converted a 240sx to electric and need to get the lead out. The car has 1100 lbs of batteries and is not happy. http://vintage-voltage.com/240sx You have inspired me to go for the LiFePo, but I'm concerned sea freight may take 3 - 6 months to get delivered.

Do you remember how much the FedEx shipping cost you? I counted 240 cells in your pack. Did you ship all cells using FedEx? I'd like to talk to you more about your experiences with these cells.

[oatnet]

JD,

You did a really great job with the conversion and this forum! I converted a 240sx to electric and need to get the lead out. The car has 1100 lbs of batteries and is not happy. http://vintage-voltage.com/240sx You have inspired me to go for the LiFePo, but I'm concerned sea freight may take 3 - 6 months to get delivered.

Do you remember how much the FedEx shipping cost you? I counted 240 cells in your pack. Did you ship all cells using FedEx? I'd like to talk to you more about your experiences with these cells.

Greetings Echas!

You are the first to post it, but your reaction is something I was hoping to encourage, by demonstrating with a big heavy old bus. I think there are lots of underutilized Pb conversions out there, that already have the EV infrastructure in place, the just need a battery chemistry replacement to restore them to ICE weight and handling - and exceed ICE performance thanks to electic torque.

It costs $12/kg - or $4/cell - to ship air. Victoria got the cells to me in 3 days via air - although customs interrupted the second shipment for 2 days. Even better, she matched the price of local Thundersky seller (where I could pick up cells without shipping), so cost + shipping = local pickup cost.

I am happy to talk with you or anyone else who is lurking - just send me a PM with your email address!

-JD

[headway]

Dear Mr.Doctorbass,

How are you?

Did you get our two samples of 38120P 8Ah cells?

By the way, I will be in San Diego from 22nd to 29th, March. Is it possible for our meeting there?

Best Regards
Victoria

JD.. This forum ia a very nice place to learn about EV!!

You just can't imagine how many people i refer to our forum!

What is imoprtant is that you correctly understand what we explain.. otherwise it mean we(guru) don't do our job correctly!!

Good evening!

Doc

[theyerb]

JD-

I'm thoroughly impressed (and somewhat jealous. haha!). Great work

[oatnet]

JD-

I'm thoroughly impressed (and somewhat jealous. haha!). Great work

Thanks theyerb!

Don't be jealous, try it yourself, it is not as challanging as it seems

OTOH, I spent my ENTIRE weekend wiring up a Vicor PSU, the board of vicor dc-dc converters, and the rows ov batteries so I finally have a single-cell charge!

I paralleled (5) 48v4.2a sub-chargers into a Vicor Autoranging PSU, and ran a set of leads, with a 25a fuse in a waterproof ATC fuseholder, with Andersons on the end.

There are 10 (10) DC-DC converters (48v-3.7v) mounted on the aluminum charging plate, to match the 10 supercells in each of the (3) rows in the pack. I ran individual positive and negative 16ga leads to each of the converters, collected them into a 10gau wire, and terminated in andersons. Then I ran a 10ga wires to the output side, splittin each one between the positive of one vicor and the negative of the next vicor, and terminating them in a block of 11 anderson conectors. At the same time I wired trim pots between the '-' and the 'sense' of each converter.

Then I ran a 12gau wire to the fuse on each copper battery strip in the pack, soldered and double-shrinkwrapped, and terminated them in blocks of 11 andersons, matching the block on the aluminum charging plate. Once terminated, I put a 30a fuse in each waterproof ATC fuseholder - 50% headroom over the 20a/.25c load I anicipated. I can also use these connections for a future LVC/pack monitoring system.

I adjusted the trip pots from 3.7-3.75v down to 3.60v. A little low, I know, but I will not discharging this pack below 50% any time soon, and I want to take it easy on the batteries. I saw a recommendation that the t-skys not be taken below 70%DOD for their first 20 cycles, I have no idea whether it is logical but I will follow it supersitiously. Similarily, I will take it easy on the charging for a while, and take it to 3.65v when I start truly exercising the pack.

I then charged each row in turn. I figured that the 10 converters, each drawing 94w, would draw 940w. As you can see from the display on the Killawatt, the bulk of the charge was at 650w, occaisionally peaking up to 700-750w. I don't fully understand why it would increase, but OK. Still, this managed to put out a massive amount of heat; the massive aluminum plate was exteremely HOT, even though it was sitting directly on a cool concrete slab. I had intended to put (30) of these vicors on this plate, I am glad I did not get that far.

When not connected to the pack, the PSU and converters drew 94w. Because it was sitting on 116w for a long time, I charged each pack to 116w. When I have more time I might let a row sit a while and see what it goes down to. Each row took about 1.2 kw, although I have no idea how much of that was heat. The good news is, I am no longer running on chinese electricity - I have the means to power the pack again!

Oddly, (1) supercell charged up to 3.68v, even though the DC-DC was trimmed to 3.6v. This made me think about fetchers point about the string being charged in series, with current flowing through the balancing wires only when the the cells were out of balance... That 3.68v sure looks like a series charge, which makes me wonder about the efficacy of single-cell charging-which I have always sworn by before. OTOH maybe this is symptomatic of my 3.6v instead of 3.65v charge.

Anyhow, to pictures:

The charging plate and PSU, finished and ready for action.

row charger_6141.JPG (46.41 KiB) Viewed 2661 times

The charging plate and PSU charging the first row at 650w

row charger_6147.JPG (55.86 KiB) Viewed 296 times

The batteries, with all three rows wired for single-cell charging. No more wires floppy around madly, a sense of order prevails.

charging_wired_6151.JPG (87.78 KiB) Viewed 296 times

Another view of the batteries, in sunlight.

charging_wired_6159.JPG (104.25 KiB) Viewed 296 times

EDIT 12/14/12: replaced pictures lost when the forum crashed a few years ago.

[SRySwe]

I'm impressed!

Maybe it's the overvoltage to the DC-DC converters that causes the heat at charging?

[oatnet]

I'm impressed!

Maybe it's the overvoltage to the DC-DC converters that causes the heat at charging?

Thanks!

I trimmed the vicor psu to exactly 48v. The converters say 48v94w in, 3.7v74w out, so that means 20w of heat from each one. Not sure why they only pulled 65w each, or what the heat output was there.

-JD

[oatnet]

Today I replaced the passenger front brake line, now the bus no longer swerves left when I step on the brakes. Diagnoses was easy - when I first got the bus, it swerved to the right when I stepped on the brakes, and it turned out to be the drivers front brake line. Too bad I didn't replace both at the same time .

I installed the brake vacuum booster. I 3/8"-1/2" adaptor from brass plumbing parts I bought at Lowes, and hooked up the booster to the existing vacuum lines. It blew the 20a fuse I had connected to my main power line (the fuse on the booster itself is 25a) but a 30a fuse seemed to run OK. It never shut off though, so I probably need to replace all of the original VW vacuum line (sigh). Worse, the pump seemed to spew oil; I have to track down THAT leak. The manufacturer warns to never set the oil-filled muffler on its side - and I never have - but gotta wonder about what other problems the oil-filled muffler could introduce. It was reasonably quiet though.

1-3 adaptors_6183.JPG (64.43 KiB) Viewed 2462 times

2-assembled_6184.JPG (28.78 KiB) Viewed 2462 times

3-installed_6186.JPG (33 KiB) Viewed 2457 times

I bought the new high-current CA from Justin. I couldn't easily find a project box that was the right size, so yesterday I ended up cutting up the plastic case of an old UPS to fit and mounting it to fit. So, with the new CA in place I ran another test with the new batteries, and I youtubed video of the run below. The shunt setting was already at .5000 and in high-current mode from the factory, but oddly again the continous battery-side drain the CA was @40a, spiking up to 60-70a occaisionally. It consumed 145wh is about 1.2 miles.

I am concerned that I was only seeing 40a, because if it was off by a factor of 10 - then I would be burning 1,450wh in a mile and this project will be unviable, and a failure. I checked the voltage on the video - at 50a the cells are @86v, so that would be 30 cells@2.8v, reasonable for 5c or 400a, low for 500a. My 400a silicon fuses should have blown at 500a though, and the batteries should have heated up instead of remaining cold.

====================================================
Edit/Update: On a whim, I changed the default shunt setting to .0500; looking back in this thread, I see that I did that with the last CycleAnalyst on page (6). This new one is the high current model, designed for an external shunt, so when I saw .5000 I just assumed it was set correctly. It was not! Now, I see amp values jump up as high as 419a, but not a factor of 10 like .5000 vs .0500. Because there was a lot of traffic I didn't do the full mile, more like .85 miles, and consumed 527wh. That isn't fatal to the project like the 1,450kwh/m I extrapolated from the 145wh/m I got at 0.500, but it is worse than the 500wh/m I considered to be my worst-case scenario. This makes me wonder about the wh/m numbers I have seen posted by folks with lead-acid bus conversions, I'd rather fail and publish the results than lead other builders astray with false numbers. As it stands, it seems pretty likely that I am going to need to go to 180v for the pack to have enough Kwh to do my full daily commute.

On the other hand, that .85 mile course did include (5) stops, so it real-world consumption for my commute might not be so bad. I think I might also find some effeciency when I change the transmission fluid (gear oil) to something lighter, and doing the wheel bearings etc helped comuta-car folks a lot, I might get under 500wh/m. Since my commute includes a trip home for lunch, it is possible efficiency gains and a lunchtime opportunity charge could get me there. Or maybe I just do the morning commute in the VoltsBus and the afternoon commute via ebike. Or maybe I will have to fall back on the original Comuta-Car project.
====================================================

So anyhow, here is today's video:

[MotorSmoke]

Great project, I've enjoyed, like others, reading all the build details.

I have some thoughts about the required to roll down the road.

Are your tires rated for low rolling resistance and well pumped up? I believe rolling
resistance is the major drag at low speed. I'm into road bike racing and I sweat over having
the best tires because it makes a very big difference.
Most interesting for bicycles, the best rolling resistance tires also
have the best traction(on pavement), I do not know if that is the case with auto tires.
Is the motor truely running free? Does a fresh motor require braking in? Have you tried a "roll down
test"?, with in gear and neutral. One can calculate rolling resistance with a "roll down" test as well.

[oatnet]

Thanks Motorsmoke!

The tires are old, standard tires, but I have them pumped up pretty high to reduce RR.

However, I re-read a message I got from Justin before I ordered the High Current CA, and realized I didn't absorb this:

For a 500A 50mV shunt, you would want to set the RShunt value in the high range mode to 0.1000 mOhm . If you tried to set it to 0.0500 mOhm, it would have reset itself to 0.078 or so since that is as low as it can go.

Going from .078 to .100 should give me somewhat happier wh/m numbers. So I'll reset the Rshunt to 0.1000, and run ANOTHER test this weekend and see how it goes.

-JD <----- Fingers crossed!

[pwbset]

*bump* What's the latest oatnet? More videos please!

[oatnet]

*bump* What's the latest oatnet? More videos please!

Thanks for the query pwbset - I've been fighting an inner-ear infection (vertigo and tinnitus) for a few months, but it got really bad last week and I haven't been able to work on anything. Last Saturday I laid out my 'new' Thomas and Betts TBM5 crimper (thanks for the tip lapwing!) and T&B purple 4/0 lugs to fix the cable with the popped lug, felt the room spin and decided I was just not in the right condition to be working on high voltage.

After I get well and repair the cable, since nobody has expressed interest in buying my Comuta Car, I might just start working on that instead. A man with 2 EVs is like a man with two mistresses.

-JD

[jag]

Any news on the e-conversion of the poptop camper? or commuta car?

The updates with battery pics, wiring and youtube videos used to keep me glued in front of the screen.
Hoping the thread won't roll off the end of the forum. Will there be a grand finale?

Former poptop bus addict (wife negotiated reduction of fleet), now eBike addict; maybe time for an ePoptop for me also sometime...

[oatnet]

Any news on the e-conversion of the poptop camper? or commuta car?

The updates with battery pics, wiring and youtube videos used to keep me glued in front of the screen.
Hoping the thread won't roll off the end of the forum. Will there be a grand finale?

Former poptop bus addict (wife negotiated reduction of fleet), now eBike addict; maybe time for an ePoptop for me also sometime...

Hi Jag!

I have had trouble getting back to working on this project, I think it permanently damaged me.

I used Turtle Wax Bug and Tar cleaner to remove built up gunk. I chose it specifically because it was the ONLY one at Kragen that didn't have warnings on the label about fumes or letting the water go down the sewer, so I thought its forumla was safe. I used it outside, but my garage area is enclosed on three sides, and below grade. I noticed a strong petroleum smell when I first applied it, but then I guess I got used to it I didn't notice it anymore. I sprayed off the cleaner with a hose, did other work for a while as it dried, and then spent hours under the bus mounting the controller assembly and throttle. At some point, the room started spinning, I called my wife on the cellphone, and she came down and helped me out. When she walked out, she said 'It smells funny down here, like gas or oil or something'. I couldn't smell it all.

I spent the rest of the weekend in bed, feeling awful, my ears were ringing. I went into work on Monday, realized I couldn't concentrate, and suddenly thought maybe I had had a stroke or something. I made an immediate appointment with my Doc (a substitue actually, my regular Doc was on vacation), who mentioned something about inner ear infections but sent me to the ER for a Cat Scan. That came out as 'negative', I got home and looked up inner ear infection, and since my ears were ringing and I was dizzy I figured that was what it was, it was supposed to clear up within 6 weeks I just had to tough it out.

The vertigo is as bad as it was that night, but my concentration never returned, and my ears never stopped ringing with the same tone and the same volume since that night. Since the symptoms did no resolve, I went back to my Doc who sent me to an EENT, who sent me for a hearing test which showed I had great hearing but no audio reflex in the right side (where the ringing is much louder) indicating the problem was neurological not with my hearing. I went to a neurologist, who sent me for an MRI, which didn't show anything so he told me it is with my hearing, and that he thinks the audio reflex test is hocus-pocus. So I have spent thousands on Doctor Bills, the Docs are pointing fingers at each other, I am not eager to line their pockets more to let them do more of that, I still can't concentrate, I get dizzy if I move too fast, and as I understand it I will have the tinnitus for life and never be able to enjoy silence again.

I know that all of these symptoms started the night I spent hours in fumes I couldn't smell, so I think I got brain damage that night. Even though my wife confirms that the fumes are gone, I just haven't been able to get myself to work on the Bus again. Someday I will.

-JD


DANGER DANGER DANGER DANGER DANGER DANGER

AVOID THIS PRODUCT AT ALL COSTS

DANGER DANGER DANGER DANGER DANGER DANGER

This is the dangerous stuff, you should avoid it!

DANGER DANGER DANGER DANGER DANGER DANGER

AVOID THIS PRODUCT AT ALL COSTS

DANGER DANGER DANGER DANGER DANGER DANGER

No warnings of the hazards - BE CAREFUL

EDIT 12/14/12: replaced pictures lost when the forum crashed a few years ago.

[gogo]

http://www.turtlewax.com/res/msds/T525.pdf

1-3% methanol

I actually went blind for a few hours due to methanol exposure.

Everybody: Try not to get chemicals on your skin and if you can smell it, get away and improve ventilation until you can't.

[pwbset]

[jag]

JD,
Sorry to hear solvent exposure made you ill. Keep up the hope for recovery. Our body and brain are remarkably robust, despite all the new stuff we get exposed to that nature had never intended.

Having methanol and other solvents without proper warning texts seem wrong to me. The shellac primer I use for vapor barriers in houses is also dissolved in some mixture of various alcohol derivatives. The can clearly says ventilate well. I still get dizzy from exposure. Standards evolve and maybe in the future an full mask with organic filter will be specified for these kinds of chemicals. Then of course a valid question is: If it is not good to breathe should it be let our in the atmosphere at all?

Hope you get better.
Martin Jagersand

[TylerDurden]

It is also possible you have BPPV. Did the EENT rule it out?

Working in awkward positions can move the crystals in your ear to bad places.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benign_par ... al_vertigo

[Rassy]

JD, sorry to hear about your problems after exposure to Turtle Wax Bug & Tar and Tree Sap Remover. Hopefully your symptons will improve.

And thanks for the warning. Went out to the shop, and sure enough the stuff I currently use to clean the stubborn stuff is Turtle Wax Bug & Tar and Tree Sap Remover. Had this 16 oz can for several years, and it's still about 1/3 full, so never use much at a time, but have never worried about ventilation with it. Will just use it outside from now on!

[oatnet]

Thanks for the good words everyone!

Rassy, glad you are alerted to it.

TD, BPPV was mentioned a few times as a possiblity, but the tinnitus and lack of audio reflex point to cerebral, and the timing happening exactly with the chemical exposure make me think otherwise. I had been under that thing for weeks, it was just after the chemicals that the problem started. At the time, since I thought it was 'safe' it didn't occur to me that perhaps the dust from the fire extinguisher, and years of motor oil/grease/smog, would be in the mix, who knows what I breathed.

jag, I agree about the warning labels. I hate dealing with opposing lawyers, but I also think "what if this happens to someone else?" I don't have the will to persue it right now, but I do feel I have been permanently damaged, maybe I will take it up at some point.

pwbset - thanks, and I hope your injuries are healing fast!

gogo, thanks for the MSDS - I have been meaning to look that up. I'd add to your advice "if you smell it initially" because after that first 15-20 seconds, I couldn't smell it anymore - I thought it was just ventilating away. It wasn't until my wife came and got me, and pointed out how strong the small was, that I realized I was still sucking it down.

-JD

[dogman]

OMFG! I hope you get better soon!

Fumes are nasty, I spent a lot of my construction life exposed to one or another, and wearing a gas mask did nothing to reduce the skin exposure. Laquering doors before I knew better, We'd wear masks all day spraying, and then clean the spray machine with laquer thinner, washing parts in a coffe can with bare hands. Then we'd feel like shit for a few days.

Fumes can really concentrate in holes. On a golf course irrigation job, I spent 8 hours a day in a pit glueing pvc pipe together. By the greens there'd be a hole with a big manifold to put together with many fittings and valves. Many times I got out of the hole, took 6 steps and passed out on the green for awhile. At age 21, we considered this a job perk! Duhhhhh. A lifetime of stuff like this is why I'm so stupid today.

For cleaning stuff, I am liking the citrus based stuff nowdays. Definitely stay away from gasoline, every year some old fart burns himself to death washing parts in gas.

[dogman]

Just talked with my wife, who's job is chemical safety and disposal for NMSU, and looked at that msds. She's saying the methanol is very bad. They use it in the labs only with huge hoods sucking it all away and gloves. The petroleum distillates is most likely some type of paint thinner-kerosene type stuff and could be just as harmfull. With gloves, in the front yard, this bug and tar remover should still be pretty safe, but in your case the fumes collected on the floor of the carport at ankle level giving a much higher exposure than usual. Fumes really like to collect low for some things, the time I set myself on fire, I was in flames to the knees from contact cement fumes that collected in a bathtub.

[curious]

oatnet - I am not a doctor but I'd suggest doing a blood test with full liver enzyme panel (AST/ALT/GGC etc.) It is not an expensive test and toxic exposure frequently has effects on liver function in addition to any neurological effects regardless if toxin was inhaled or consumed. It may help your doctor diagnose the problem and also can provide evidence if you ever decide to proceed with legal action (not that I am a big fun of it but in certain exceptional cases like yours it may be appropriate).

[jag]

Maybe it would be a good idea to ask/look around for a doctor who is a specialist on methanol poisoning, ie someone who has published research papers on the topic. Those of us who own a VW bus know that if you bring it to just any mechanic it is unlikely that it gets fixed right; but in most cities there are a few mechanics who specialize in buses. With doctors it is pretty much the same; they are just paid more highly.

In the nordic countries methanol poisoning is relatively common. It used to be in the news regularly when I grew up. The common cause is people drinking distilled alcohol that is either home made or made for industrial use rather than human consumption (therefore not inspected and clean of methanol). The damage is not caused by the methanol itself but acidic derivatives produced in the metabolism of it. The same enzyme breaks down both methanol and ethanol. A treatment used back home is to drink regular alcohol to about 0.1% blood level concentration. During the first day/days after methanol poisoning consumption of regular ethanol alcohol will tie up this enzyme, and thus slow the breakdown of the methanol into its poisonous derivatives. Unfortunately now it is probably too late to inhibit the poisoning effect. I haven't heard about the drinking method here, though that may be because of avoiding public mention of drinking to levels of intoxication. I don;t know what treatments are used in north America. It seems to me that the best course of action is to find a doctor who can read the product data sheet and knows the research literature on the area. One might also consider testing the actual product. Product quality standards aren't always very good, and there may be other toxic substances and/or higher concentrations in there than reported.

While you say that you don't have the energy and interest to do legal action now it may still be good to ask for some advice. Evidence may need to be secured sooner rather than later. I'm guessing you may also need an expert witness (ie doctor). Your regular doctor and his stand in may have misdiagnosed you and therefore have a biased witness opinion. Specialist doctors in the area may have been expert witnesses already, and would be familiar with what type of evidence to secure.