FLYING with electricity

Things that fly

Re: FLYING with electricity

Postby markobetti » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:39 am

i like the project but i agree with kim . the guy has a Diesel engine also , so if they stop he simply drives on diesel engine. ...
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Re: FLYING with electricity

Postby Lock » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:22 am

etard wrote: I wonder what controller he is using.


This looks familiar...

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...but I don't see it on the web offhand
tks
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Re: FLYING with electricity

Postby HAL9000v2.0 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:39 am

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Re: FLYING with electricity

Postby HAL9000v2.0 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:41 am

Now when I look at it better this is a 170A version. (It has only 2 wires parallel and 1 wire per phase) 550$
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Re: FLYING with electricity

Postby Lock » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:03 pm

Bingo! Tks Hal!
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Flytec of Switzerland

Postby Lock » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:34 am

Flytec is now listing Dr.Ecks motors plus controllers for sale.
http://www.flytec.ch/e-drive/home.htm

Two flavours, 10kW (about $2,700US) and 13.5kW ($3,350US)... Then they want you to buy their controllers (10kw $1,680, 13.5kW $2,300US) and they have a separate controller "graphical interface" unit for about $670US

Flytec.jpg
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Their description for the 10HP unit:
HPD 10

The HPD 10 motor is a notably lightweight, slowly running drive, coming with a very high specific performance and paramount efficiency. The drive is designed for the relatively low operational speed of directly driven 2-blade air screws of 1.3 to 1.5 m diameter, providing the highest possible efficiency along with only slight noise level.
It is in fact a PPS device (polyphase permanently energised solenoid synchronal machine), which is operated by a tri-phase output stage DST as brushless direct current motor. The motor has a current consumption of 190A at rated power of 10kW and electric continuous operation at 52 V battery voltage. It achieves herewith a rated speed of 2100 min-1 and a torque of 42 Nm. The threshold values are approx. 220 to 230 A, according to the output stage cooling, or 50 Nm torque accelerated during take-off phase.

The motor can also be supplied for a lower specific rotation speed/voltage upon request.


Technical Data HPD 10

max. voltage : 58 V
specific idle running speed: 47 U/min/V
specific nominal load speed: 42 U/min/V
rotational speed limit value: 2500 U/min
rated current : 190 A
max. motor current: up to 230A (in accordance to cooling)
Max. stator-temperature: 100° C
max. rated input power: 10'000 VA
nominal effectiveness: approx. > 93%
internal resistance phase to phase: 7,8 mOhm
total inductance phase to phase: 14,5 µH
Ri: 7,8 mOhm
coiling number: 36
magnetic pole numberl: 42
coil number: 18/36
constant torque: 0,22 Nm/A
Hallsensor feedback: without
vector group: delta connection
weight incl. connecting line: 3,75 kg
dimensions: dia. 21,8 cm – length: 7,1 cm



and their "Motor Management System"
Motormanagement system

Brushless direct current motors need an electronic controller which enables the rotary motion. The three components SDC, SDI and DST constitute a unit:
the motor management system.
The setpoint for the motor voltage, as well as the enabling of the motor are effected by the operating unit SDI (Smart Drive Interface). The central control SDC (Smart Drive Control) monitors all functions and transmits the preprocessed setpoint signal to the output stage DST (frequency converter). The output stage DST is directly powered by the battery. The DST converts the direct current into a three-phase alternating current which constitutes in the stator the rotary field for the motor.

The SDC constitutes the central element of the entire motor management. The SDC monitors the motor, the battery, the electric power, the enabling signals and the system monitoring. When developing the device, the highest possible safety for motor and the user was an essential aspect. All process conditions are monitored by two independent processors. As soon as an unsafe condition appears, either caused by failure, or by incorrect operating conditions, the SDC cuts off the system. The motor is safely decelerated and then switched to currentless mode. Due to the functional principle of the brushless direct current motor it is impossible that the motor just starts to rotate.



Not sure whether the motor requires that large cooling fan or not :wink:

Tks
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Re: Flytec of Switzerland

Postby Tiberius » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:50 am

Lock wrote:Two flavours, 10kW (about $2,700US) and 13.5kW ($3,350US)... Then they want you to buy their controllers (10kw $1,680, 13.5kW $2,300US) and they have a separate controller "graphical interface" unit for about $670US


In aviation, weight is crucial. All manufacturers know that the first step is to lighten the aviator's wallet.

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Re: FLYING with electricity

Postby Lock » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:48 am

Hehe... sounds like the marine world... lighter wallets and heavier boats... :lol:
I assume the flytec product is built to very high quality and efficiency standards
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Re: FLYING with electricity

Postby pwbset » Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:50 pm

Apologies if this was posted before, but here is another self-feathering (so awesome) solution. I used to fly a Skywalk Tequila paraglider and happened on their site again today and ran into this using the Eck motor:

http://www.skywalk.info/News/article/1817
http://www.razeebuss.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyFP2eDtQJw

Very expensive, but I really love that the batt is in the front to balance the weight more.
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Re: FLYING with electricity

Postby joav8r » Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:41 pm

Hi,
I´m Johannes from Nürnberg and I´m involved into the Elektro-Minimum project of Mr. Kellermann.

Here some tech. specs:
Two BLDC motors from Hobbyking, 8Kw peak each.
Two Jeti Spin 200 speed controllers
Battery: LiFePo 10Ah each cell , i guess there are 12 cells serial and four of these packs parallel ( I first had to ask him what the actual configuration of the batteries)

And here some pics:

Image

(My DIY-Segway in front)

Image

Image

Image

For more pictures just take a look at my Flickr page:

[url]http://www.flickr.com/photos/37711826@N07/sets/"]http://www.flickr.com/photos/37711826@N07/sets[/url]

This solution is working very well for the first version of this drive, it has a feasible rate of climb and a 10min runtime on full throttle.
The next big changes will be a direct drive with a single motor and the change from LiFePo4 cells toward LiPo cells from Kokam.

@AussieJester: Your fears about these chinese motors are absolutely justified, the rotor bell is too weak and at a certain rpm it starts to fall in resonance....wich means that the magnets can get loose!!! :shock:
With a reinforced rotor its working well for testing, but the final version will have a singe motor of higher quality and durability.

If you have any questions i can hand them over to the owner of this.
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Re: FLYING with electricity

Postby Lock » Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:22 pm

Fabulous Johannes! Welcome to the Endless Sphere. Interesting to note both folding and fixed props in the pics? I'm guessing the folder was an improvement?
Also curious to know what a ten minute run-time translates to as typical flight times (guessing that most time spent aloft is just unpowered gliding?)
Cheers
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Re: FLYING with electricity

Postby gestalt » Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:08 pm

someone with some aeronautical expertise tell me why you couldn't take something like this
Image

and then add two of those colossus 12kw motors driving each their own propeller like those nice folding jobs our new friend has on his. house all the batteries and electronics in that center enclosure instead of the jet engine that they plan on putting in there. better yet have one of each and have them be interchangable. I wonder how much weight would be added to throw some of that nano solar film over the top of the whole thing, it could add range and allow the thing to charge in the sun when you are not using it.
- be seeing you
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Re: FLYING with electricity

Postby gestalt » Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:07 pm

some other interesting prop design, changes the pitch of the prop while in use. I don't think you would be able to fold the blades down with this design, but it could be used to increase the efficiency of the whole system.
http://www.ultralightnews.com/Ivoprop/inflightultralightmodel.htm
Image

though I must say that it is quite expensive and complex. the folding prop seems like it could be done diy, but the pitch changing one seems to have to many parts that would be hard to replicate with off the shelf parts.
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Re: FLYING with electricity

Postby Lock » Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:43 pm

gestalt wrote:someone with some aeronautical expertise tell me why you couldn't take something like this...

HAHA! Had to look that up. Fabulous! It's intended primarily as a glider, so only powered for ten minutes of flight time. Plans called for a jet engine... Couldn't find any details about amount of thrust involved... `Steada "exterior" props, perhaps replace the jet with electric fan?

This RC model good for 28lbs thrust...
Image

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Re: FLYING with electricity

Postby Lock » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:04 pm

gestalt wrote:some other interesting prop design, changes the pitch of the prop while in use...


Nice one gestalt... from that page:
This results in substantial savings in fuel, engine wear and noise.


It'd be nice to see some actual figures on fuel savings/how efficiency changes with the pitch... The sense I get for the powered paragliders and fixed wing ultralights is that they motor off the ground and some inflight but also switch off and glide much of the time? Better to utilize thermals to maintain height versus battery power? Anyway, if so, I'll guess the folding prop would generate better overall efficiency over the length of flight if unpowered gliding is part of the plan...
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Re: FLYING with electricity

Postby gestalt » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:15 pm

Lock.


I'm digging it, so essentially turning that body into a massive ducted fan. If it does only use the jet engine sparingly it would make sense, even keeping true to its original anime form in the movie "nausicaa and the valley of the wind". if you are into anime and haven't seen the film shame on you. In the movie it jet bursts to altitude and then glides, only using the engine for more than bursts occasionally. but if you didn't catch it, here is the video of the 1/5 scale jet powered rc version and it flies like a mofre http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Nkc-Rhgb7Y

I have been trying to figure out a way to make a top riding light aircraft for quite some time and since it's called opensky, I sure hope they are open source because I'm going to be "borrowing" quite a bit from their design. If that fan generates 28lbs I wonder how much force the prop units out there produce.

edit:
I just found the specs on the electraflyer and it says the thrust generated is 140lbs. So you would have to upgrade the power of the fan design to five times greater output but doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility.
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Re: FLYING with electricity

Postby Lock » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:58 pm

gestalt wrote:I just found the specs on the electraflyer and it says the thrust generated is 140lbs. So you would have to upgrade the power of the fan design to five times greater output but doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility.

One other data point, the AE-1 powered glider (in this thread here:)
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3670&start=45#p255452

...uses a 13kW rated motor. Watt kinda thrust that translates to I have no idea... swinging a 76" prop...
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Re: FLYING with electricity

Postby etard » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:58 am

Johannes,

Very nice to have you here, welcome to ES! Have you looked into the Astro 3220 motors that Recumpence is putting on his KMX trike, here:

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=15634

These motors are stout than the Hobbyking outrunners IMHO. Also the cellman 20ah A123 Batteries would be perfect for this application.

I was wondering what kind of climb ratio you are experiencing with your current setup? How many meters/ second? Thank you, and I really like your DIY segway, any more info on this too?
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Aviation & EV coming together

Postby Lock » Thu May 06, 2010 10:41 am

[EVDL] Aviation & EV coming together
Thursday, May 6, 2010 9:28 AM
From: "Rick Beebe" <rick@beebe.org>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>

This is from AVweb, an aviation e-newsletter. The EAA mentioned is NOT the Electric Auto Association.

http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/1625-full.html#202497

--Rick

CAFE Symposium Glimpses The Future Of Flight

It isn't quite a flux capacitor, but Jonathan Trent, a marine biologist, is working with NASA to create biofuels using the effluent pumped out of
wastewater treatment plants. Trent detailed his latest research at the fourth annual Electric Aircraft Symposium, in Santa Rosa, Calif.,
organized by the CAFE Foundation. His system uses energy from the sun to operate, and cleans the water while growing algae that can be used for
fuel. The several hundred participants at the event also heard about advances in battery technology from Eva Hakansson, who together with her
husband, Bill Dube, built the world's fastest electric motorcycle. They are now working on a two-wheeled electric-powered vehicle they hope will
go 400 mph. Improving the energy density of batteries -- how much power they can deliver per unit of weight -- is at the core of advancing
electric flight, according to EAA.

Participants at the symposium discussed both progress and problems encountered over the last year. "There is a ground-swell of activity in
the area of electric flight," said EAA's Ron Wagner. "We live in exciting times." Topics on the agenda included nanotechnology, which is
seen as a promising source of advances in batteries, and hybrid power, perhaps combining an internal combustion engine for takeoff and climb
and switching to electric power for cruise flight. EAA will highlight electronic aircraft advances at AirVenture Oshkosh later this summer,
with daily showcase flights, displays, and forums in AirVenture's Aviation Learning Center.


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Re: FLYING with electricity

Postby regmeister » Sun May 09, 2010 10:08 am

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Re: FLYING with electricity

Postby Lock » Sun May 09, 2010 10:42 am

HAHA!!! YAY! YAY! I really want to do this!

His site here:
http://www.icaro2000.com/Home.htm
Looks like he has a Flytec system:
http://www.flytec.ch/e-drive/home.htm

Nice and quiet!!! It's the prop noise I've been wondering about and this doesn't sound loud at all...

Would love to hear pack Whs and watt running time this provides... Flytec offers 1368Wh of Li-ion or 2072Wh or 3108Wh of LiPo.

Just awesome
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Re: FLYING with electricity

Postby regmeister » Sun May 09, 2010 9:10 pm

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Re: FLYING with electricity

Postby Lock » Mon May 10, 2010 4:36 pm

Very nice loops, `cept just watching makes my stomach do loops... Nice thing about an open trike design, no cockpit glass coated in barf
:D
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Re: FLYING with electricity

Postby etard » Tue May 11, 2010 12:49 am

Gorgeous airplane in flight, how much does something like that trike go for? Is it a special wing, or is a hang gliding wing retrofitted? Good finds, I will def have to try this one day. Does this fall under the sport pilot license?
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Re: FLYING with electricity

Postby Lock » Tue May 11, 2010 5:26 am

etard wrote:...how much does something like that trike go for? Is it a special wing, or is a hang gliding wing retrofitted?


Found their price list:
http://www.icaro2000.com/Products/Pricelist/HG-Motorisation-10-1-3-Retail.pdf

Looks like about $10,500 for the basic trike w/eprop plus ship to ??? Looks like you could spend a lot more w/the options like folding prop and emerg parachute... Still a lot cheaper than my last sailboat but not as roomy for guests and picnic :D

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