RETAILERS AS MEMBERS?

[dogman]

99% the bogus claims I see from retailers happens on thier own websites. They bring BS here we jump on em like republicans on a tax hike. Those with the balls to interact here seem to be pretty straight shooters and have websites without bogus claims such as for range. Zoot gave the list of only some of the vendors we sent home crying when they tried to post bs here. A lot of that stuff ended up getting personal, and mods then sent it to the basement or even deleted stuff that should not be seen, so unless you were here then, you don't know it happened.

The vendors who have contributed here have made very signifigant improvements to thier products, and greatly helped us understand what we were buying.

[Speedfreke]

I have to admit I never expected this much rooting for retailers but some of the glowing reports come off as "They better deliver or I'm gonna get pissed off AGAIN".
Anyways without identifying retailers unscrupulous types can influence the discussions.

[317537]

I dont know but I feel good solid reviews by members makes for better sales promotion.

[chet]

Ya, that's what we need more censorship . It would be a shame to disallow anyone. I'm sure that Plato would be spinning in his grave. A forum means a place for open discussion for all. This is a forum not a private club. That's just my two cents worth. But in my opinion the suggestion that anyone is excluded is ridiculous. Who would be excluded next...

Members that SHOUT at us.

[chet]

99% the bogus claims I see from retailers happens on thier own websites. They bring BS here we jump on em like republicans on a tax hike. Those with the balls to interact here seem to be pretty straight shooters and have websites without bogus claims such as for range. Zoot gave the list of only some of the vendors we sent home crying when they tried to post bs here. A lot of that stuff ended up getting personal, and mods then sent it to the basement or even deleted stuff that should not be seen, so unless you were here then, you don't know it happened.

The vendors who have contributed here have made very signifigant improvements to thier products, and greatly helped us understand what we were buying.

agreed.

[TylerDurden]

This is a forum not a private club.

For the record, this *is* a private club. It is privately owned and anyone may be denied access at any time.

[Speedfreke]

Crash Machine wrote: "that's what we need , more censorship"

Censorship means denying someone a say to the entire media. Since this is only one tiny website this is not censorship because the person or organization can say whatever they like elsewhere (like on their website).

[Crash Machine]

Actually I never considered that this was a private club . I stand corrected. I still consider the exclusion of anyone would be detrimental. Of course what do I know up until I started ebiking I couldn't even turn a computer on. I guess I still believe in the freedom of speech but I'm a little old fashioned. The whole guilty until proven innocent thing doesn't sit well with me. Now identifying retailers isn't as bad an idea. I was only addressing the exclusion issue. Excluding someone because of their affiliation sure sounds like censorship to me. On a large or small scale. My own opinion...

[rguy56]

I don't see this as a problem, Speedfreeke.

You can enjoy the protection you wish by tracking down the dealers and making them "enemies". Everyone can enjoy the website they want.

Good hunting!

Bob

[317537]

Censorship is the wrong word IMO. Light handed guidence never hurt any community. Its like a growing an indoor plant and you want it to lean over in a certain way, if you force it, it breaks and kills the plant. Its best to guide things slowly.

Groups need a similar goal and individuals have much capacity to learn new things and values they never knew before, this can lead to positive guidence. Censorship can stop people learning the consequences of bad things that can amout to a type of behaviour. You must nick your finger before you learn the true meaning why you should be carefull with a sharp knife.

[dogman]

Those of us that have been here longer, do really appreciate that is is a "private" club. And also appreciate the hard work the moderators do to keep it a forum where communication happens, instead of a forum for people to trash each other for personal reasons. Legitimate gripes do stay on the boad, but personal attacks dissapear. It's not a perfect system, but if you behave, your posts don't get deleted.

[methods]

....
It was raining but we were only about 8 blocks from the shop. Mark carried my batteries, Adam doubled me on his Xtracycle, Justin and Zev took turns ghost riding my bike back to the shop where there was cold beer and four people to help change the rear wheel on a Xtracycle.
Zev gave me a good take-off tire from a demonstration bike. I offered to pay for it but was declined by Justin....

No kidding Zoot.... Since I started Justin has been there for me 110%
I choose carefully the men and women whom I respect and aspire to be like.
Justin is one of the very few.

-methods

[HTB_Terry]

Speedfreke, if you have a problem with a specific dealer who is promoting their products too much or being biased, just go ahead and mention the company and give them a chance to respond. That's better than lumping them all together.

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

retailers as members?
sounds like ur not cogniscent of reality.
what do u say about retailers as mods.


the 4sale section is already turning into a pissing contest between the full-time retailers.
everyone wants to be the top dog (natch) by endlesslee bumping their thread.
tolerable atm but admin needs to start thinking about what to do about it b4 the #'s increase when EMF & speedfreke gets proven right.

[D-Man]

A good product sells itself.

[turoczi]

I agree a good product sells itself

I too am sick of it. I normally browse a couple times a week but lately it just turns me off.

I also would like to suggest checking IP addresses as I would imagine some retailers are logging in under multiple user names.

[recumbent]

Some of the best information and advice come from the retailers that frequent here, all is well.

[dogman]

While I doubt that the trusted retailers on my good guys list do that( multiple identities) I can see why they may want to enter discussions on some topics without having an opinon reflect on thier buisness. This would apply particularly for the general discussion threads that might be political. So having a web identity of X bike company for technical discussions and another for ranting about politics would make sense.

There are a bunch of shill posts, often ranting about some shitty product, but who takes a poster with less than 10 comments seriously? Especially a guy who starts a thread, pukes out some swill and dissapears from the discussion.

Even the most uninformed noob catches on pretty quick to who to listen to here. When certain retailers start a thread, or make a comment here, I really perk up, read it several times, and learn a LOT.

[Speedfreke]

rguy56 -In response to your comments about "making retaillers my enemy and getting the web site I want":
yes I can make the retaillers my enemy but no-I can't have the website I want. As many of you pointed out, retaillers exert a lot of influence and therefore help set the 'tone' of ES. However, I accept this site 'as is' (and there probably is nothing out there better) but it would be 'upfront' to indicate that any particular poster is a retailler.

[Ykick]

I probably don't know enough about the dynamics here to open my trap but I fail to see any clear advantage limiting contact with like-minded businesses and vendors. It's sorta like an open-source world here - the science is sound or it isn't. The collective collaboration is what drives the science and development of our passion.

What's the problem if a retailer posts a bunch of nonsense? Their ignorance will be exposed and false claims flushed out with the truth. In fact, if you limit contact with these people it may actually do more harm when they don't have too be concerned about ever being exposed.

[chet]

Does speedfreke compromise our rules?

"You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening,......."

[Drunkskunk]

I'm all for retailers as members. The idiots will expose them selves as idiots in time.

Most of them have been good guys. Justin, Jason, Zev, Ping, Oatnet, That guy from Itselectric who's name i'm forgetting, lynchy, ... I just realized this list of good guys is going to get long.. never mind.

Its anoying when some retailers try to sell there product to people asking questions, especialy when its not the best solution for the question asked, But for the most part, retailers are enthusiests too, and here with good information.

[fechter]

I think it's important to allow retailers to post on the forum. As pointed out, any bogus claims will backfire seriously here. It's a good thing for retailers to get feedback about their products and what kinds of things we are looking for.

On thing we had considered is to make a special member group for retailers and it would make their usernames show up in a different color so they are easily identified.

The "For Sale" section is specifically set aside for retailers and anyone else to try to advertise their goods. As long as they don't start spamming other sections, I won't moderate them very heavily there. Sort of like the Cesspool. Pissing matches are not good, however. If necessary, the For Sale seciton could be divided between retailers and regular members just trying to sell their extra stuff. There could be some grey areas in some cases.

[Speedfreke]

It's possible but not realistic to paint all retaillers with the same brush. Heck, I even like some of them. In principle the two(consumers and retailers) should be kept separate. It's not like we are all moving together to some ebike heaven. We are at opposite ends. But I suspect that because this business is relatively new, consumers have no where to turn when confused. And I can honestly say that I have never read so much confused crap in all my life (like this post). But this is the nature of internet forums. But what do you expect when hungry consumers have to trust largely untested products fom China of all places. With improper labelling, under-sized wiring, shoddy workmanship, no instructions. So we rely on the retailler's words. And they sometimes are as confused as we are . As far a I know only Justin at ebikes.ca tried to clarify things from the ground up by demanding certain standards from suppliers. Anyways this is my 2 cents. Sorry for rambling.

[Lock]

It's not like we are all moving together to some ebike heaven.

How about "wild frontier"? Or Gold RUSH?