Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

[johnrobholmes]

Great additions! I'll be waiting for the final versions to carry in my store. Until then I will keep getting the regular versions!


All around, what a great product you have Justin. And even better support and development!

[justin_le]

Will this allow setting Max Power in Watts instead of just Max Current in Amps?

Like this: ?

MaxWatts.jpg (11.38 KiB) Viewed 3998 times

(don't you tell me it needs one more digit )

Voltage sag and normal discharge can make a current-only spec a bit sub-optimal in 2.23. Having the CA do the math on the fly could keep performance up while resources are being depleted.

I originally went just with a current limit because I figured most people would be using this feature for the sake of protecting / babying their batteries, and in that case regulating amps makes the most sense for sure. But that was circa 2005 / 2006 when batteries were the main limiting factor in ebike performance. Now batteries can do 40C discharge rates while barely getting warm and it's the motor people are trying to protect, and for that limiting the watts certainly makes the most sense.

-Justin

[gensem]

Like this: ?

MaxWatts.jpg

(don't you tell me it needs one more digit )

YES!!! its needed... also add another digit to the Amp limit so i goes all the way to 999amps.

[Doctorbass]

(don't you tell me it needs one more digit )

Yess too!

It would be also usefull for the moto and electric car!.. this folk is also great number buyer for the C-A

some TTXGP guys also use it!.. even.. the Killacycle was using it.. but i agree showing 0.3MegaWatts might be rare case

I can count 7 more free digit on the 2nd line.. leaving enough space for displaying 90 000 000 000Watts (90 Gigawatt)

Doc

[Ypedal]

9999 kw !

[teklektik]

...Like this? ...limiting the watts certainly makes the most sense.

There are so many well-considered improvements - it's the re-evaluation and evolution of past designs into a tidy cohesive product instead of a patchwork of odd features that really makes this effort impressive.

[justin_le]

Did you ever thought about including a programmable BEEP piezo alarm option we could setup for ex low SOC alarm etc?

I think we need to be careful making sound noises. Certainly my tendency is to want to smash electronic devices that beep at me, so it's unlikely that the idea of a piezo buzzer would make it into the design!

However, I think we could do a compromise Stéphane where parts of the display would then flash when a hard limit is hit? so for instance if LVC is reached then the battery indicator blinks, if overtemp is reached then the temperature readout flashes etc. That would also be useful to tell people what is going on when the CA starts to throttle back the power output, and it shouldn't be too difficult to implement.

[justin_le]

(don't you tell me it needs one more digit )

I can count 7 more free digit on the 2nd line.. leaving enough space for displaying 90 000 000 000Watts (90 Gigawatt)
Doc

Ha, you guys are all a little crazy. Good news is that now with the bootloader we can do a custom "DoctorBass" firmware mod that anyone can install which will show all your power stats in gigawatts, your distance in light-years, and your speeds measured in units of c (as in 3x10^8 m/s). The day your ebikes become certified rocketships, the CA will be there for the ride... -J

[Doctorbass]

Justin, you are our true God hero etc!

The idea of making the display to flash is perfect!

The Bootloader personal options would be the cherry on the sunday!

I am already wondering if i will order one or two

That first one will be on my Zero DS 2011 motorcycle for sure!

The second one.. ( reserved for a Top secret project!)

Doc

[teklektik]

The second one.. ( reserved for a Top secret project!)

...the one with the dilithium crystal batteries that need an extra few digits?

[teklektik]

Did you ever thought about including a programmable BEEP piezo alarm option we could setup for ex low SOC alarm etc?

I think we need to be careful making sound noises ... it's unlikely that the idea of a piezo buzzer would make it into the design!

Hmmm - could you possibly squeeze in an optional OC alarm output - maybe with a nearby pad for customer-installed pull-up? This is Gilding the Lily, but a hook to open up the possibility of passing along alerts to other (signaling) devices might be nice...

[NeilP]

The second one.. ( reserved for a Top secret project!)

Doc

Let me guess...will the power figures have few more Zeros on the end

[justin_le]

So one of the things that was really useful in the RC-CA thread was discussions about throttle mapping. In the original RC-CA, there device was setup only as a current throttle, and the input throttle range was limited over a 3V span via the AuxInput function. In the setup menu for the V3 CA's input throttle, you can specify both minimum and maximum input range allowing you to dial in just where the start and end zones are for the throttle motion, regardless of whether you have a potentiometer or a hall effect throttle type.

ThrotInMin.jpg (10.02 KiB) Viewed 838 times

ThrotInMax.jpg (9.92 KiB) Viewed 838 times

The output throttle range is similarly settable. One thing we've noticed is that many newer controllers run the hall throttles off a 4.3V supply rather than a 5V supply, and so instead of the usual 0.9-4.2V input range, they see a 0.9-3.6V range, with full throttle being at about 3.4V and with a 4V signal being considered a fault condition. So this way the CA's output can be adjusted to match properly with what the controller expects:

ThrotOutMin.jpg (10.28 KiB) Viewed 838 times

ThrotOutMax.jpg (10.37 KiB) Viewed 838 times

And of course, you can select whether the output throttle is a voltage signal as per ebike controllers, or a servo pulse signal as used by RC controllers

ThrotOutMode.jpg (10.17 KiB) Viewed 838 times

In the RC output mode, there is no need to change any hardware on the CA, the same green wire in the 6-pin CA-DP connector will supply either a steady voltage or the pulse stream, and the min and max output ranges are then displayed in units of mS:

ThrotOutMS.jpg (11.11 KiB) Viewed 838 times

Back to the input throttle, there is a selection menu to now choose what the throttle controls, so you have the option of ignoring the input throttle, or treating it as a current throttle, a speed throttle, or now a Pass-Thru throttle. In pass-thru mode, the CA basically takes the input throttle within the input throttle range, and maps it over to the output throttle range. So this way if you don't want the CA's feedback loops to come into the picture, you can have it pass your own command throttle straight to the controller. But with the remapping capability of the input/output ranges, it means you can use potentiometer throttle on a controller expecting a hall input, a hall throttle on a potentiometer controller, or any throttle with an RC controller etc.

ThrotPassThur.jpg (10.04 KiB) Viewed 838 times

And finally to give more of a soft start feeling to the ebike, and especially to reduce gear and clutch failures in geared drives, there is a throttle output rate limit that regardless of all other settings puts a firm clamp on how rapidly the throttle output of the CA can change:

ThrotRateLimit.jpg (9.59 KiB) Viewed 838 times

Some people like the instant kick of an instant throttle, while others find it disconcerting and prefer the power to ease in smoothly, and so with the rate limit this can be set to the user's preference.

[justin_le]

There are so many well-considered improvements - it's the re-evaluation and evolution of past designs into a tidy cohesive product instead of a patchwork of odd features that really makes this effort impressive.

Thanks Teklektik. It indeed started turning into something of a patchwork piece last fall, and so that's part of why there was such a long lapse from then to now figuring out how to get everything tidily integrated in this package in a way that makes sense. I'm glad you can see and appreciate that!

[teklektik]

And finally to give more of a soft start feeling to the ebike, and especially to reduce gear and clutch failures in geared drives, there is a throttle output rate limit that regardless of all other settings puts a firm clamp on how rapidly the throttle output of the CA can change...
Some people like the instant kick of an instant throttle, while others find it disconcerting and prefer the power to ease in smoothly, and so with the rate limit this can be set to the user's preference.

This may be a subject for custom firmware, but there are two difficulties with a fixed rate of change.

1. It is probably most useful to only have it apply only in the throttle-up direction so throttle-down response will not suffer (brakes-NOW!).
2. Dead-start or at-speed clutch re-engagement is where the gears and clutch take a beating. A fixed rate in all cases can address these two situations but also will make general throttle response sluggish.

(Just thinking here...) It might be nice if the rate could be made to apply only (1) in throttle-up direction and (2) when the minimum throttle setting in the last second was less than 5% according to other configured throttle voltage criteria. This would make the throttle ease on only from dead start or when attempting to re-engage the clutch from a coasting episode (I think...)

EDIT - hmmmm - okay - the criteria for initiating and terminating the behavior for (2) is problematic. Scratch that.

[justin_le]

(Just thinking here...) It might be nice if the rate could be made to apply only (1) in throttle-up direction and (2) when the minimum throttle setting in the last second was less than 5% according to other configured throttle voltage criteria. This would make the throttle ease on only from dead start or when attempting to re-engage the clutch from a coasting episode (I think...)

Right, I should have clarified that as currently implemented it is just a ramp-up rate limit. Ramp down is still instant. If it's not this way then yes it's disconcerting when you brake, or stop pedalling in PAS mode, and it takes a while before the assist dies off.

As for 2, I'm exploring a different idea that would maybe address this pretty well. You are right that if you are already travelling at speed, the ramp rate can cause an annoying lag before you feel anything from the motor. However, if the CA was programmed to know the motor KV in V/kph, then it could rapidly move the throttle up to a value it knows is just below the speed of the bike, and then only at that point would the slower rate limit come into effect. That should in principle provide the smooth engagement of throttle ramping without the long latency when you are already moving. It's fairly high on the to-do agenda to try this out.

-Justin

[tfahrner]

I think we need to be careful making sound noises. Certainly my tendency is to want to smash electronic devices that beep at me, so it's unlikely that the idea of a piezo buzzer would make it into the design!

I hear you there, but you know what kills a lot of systems in these here parts? Leaving the system powered on when unattended. Arguably unsafe, and quiescent draw sucks the batteries dry. I'd favor a 10-minutes-no-activity "nagger" alarm.

[izeman]

buaaaahhhh ... i just ordered a CA yesterday. would i have know that there will be a V3 ...
will we see some of the screen updates in the "old" CA versions as well? or will it be hardware dependent?

[johnrobholmes]

The throttle mapping is just icing on the cake! I can use them for any controllers now, what a great piece of kit.

Ever get any farther on integrating a watt controlled throttle or integrating amp limiting with speed limiting throttle types?

[GCinDC]

Awesome, Justin!

I loved hearing about the history of the CA, as well as the new features in the CA (04:20-13:44), during our podcast interview (mp3 download).

Parts II and III to be released soon here.

I can't wait for the beta release of the motor!

[justin_le]

I think we need to be careful making sound noises. Certainly my tendency is to want to smash electronic devices that beep at me, so it's unlikely that the idea of a piezo buzzer would make it into the design!

I hear you there, but you know what kills a lot of systems in these here parts? Leaving the system powered on when unattended. Arguably unsafe, and quiescent draw sucks the batteries dry. I'd favor a 10-minutes-no-activity "nagger" alarm.

Well, having first hand dealt with dozens if not upwards of a hundred cases of batteries that have suffered this fate, I can't exactly disagree with the sentiment! But, the onus to solve this is really in the battery BMS board designers. They absolutely have to make it so that after a low voltage cutoff, the bms quiescent current falls to no more than a few uA, and the pack could continue to sit for over a year without issue. The present situation where the BMS quiescent current will kill a pack a month or two after LVC is really ridiculous.

But, I still can't get myself to embrace an alarm. It reminds me of the story from one of the bike stores here in Vancouver that deals heavily with BionX. The BionX batteries would do a very intermittent beep like every 10 minutes when at low voltage. The shop naturally had dozens of batteries scattered about, some on bikes, some in boxes, some on shelves, and so had an infuriating situation where a pack from somewhere would beep. But the noise was too high pitched and short to locate where it came from, and too infrequent between beeps to wait around for the next occurrence. It drove the proprietor mildly crazy (as it would myself too).

[flathill]

Awesome work. Now when are you releasing your controller

The temperature based limiting is the feature I've wanted most. Thank you!

Will your motors becoming with temps sensors stock? I heard some of the new crystals have temp sensors from the factory.

[Tench]

Justin your a genious!! this sounds to be just what is needed right now with more people building higher powered ebikes, the throttle mapping would be a god send!

Any idea on time scales, when we will be able to get our hands on them, i could use one right now, cant wait to explore the throttle options.

Simon.

[el_walto]

I'm interested in the Torque Sensors. Would be nice if i could build pedal and go ebikes for my parents. Not sure if there is going to be anything decent available from ebikes.ca torque sensor wise to go with the CA.

[teklektik]

... Ramp down is still instant. If it's not this way then yes it's disconcerting when you brake, or stop pedalling in PAS mode, and it takes a while before the assist dies off.

Excellent!

As for 2, I'm exploring a different idea that would maybe address this pretty well. ... it could rapidly move the throttle up to a value ... It's fairly high on the to-do agenda to try this out.

Excellent as well - thanks for the clarification.

Can we look forward to user-installable firmware updates from you of the platform? I know this opens up all sorts of really evil ball-and-chain support issues with sunset hardware that drain resources in the future, but I have to ask