Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

[Tench]

Thats what i did with my wheel speed sensor wires, one to SP and one to G, that works fine.

[teklektik]

Okay - a little cross-posting going on
Here's some catch-up:

Been and made some adjustments,,
My throttle min output voltage is 0.85v so i set the min input to 0.87v
max input displayed by the CA is 4.19 so i set this to 4.10v
Min out put is set to 1.40v as i know the controller does not start til just above this voltage (even tried stting this to 0.40v)
Max out put is set to 4.10v.

Ramp up set to 500, ramp down to 999.

Sounds good - to summarize:

ThrI -> Cntrl Mode = Pass-thru (yes?)
ThrI -> Min Input = 0.87 Volts to ensure no output with closed throttle at 0.85
ThrI -> Max Input = 4.10 Volts so actual throttle voltage (4.19) will guarrantee max output
ThrO -> Output Mode = Voltage
ThrO -> Min Output = 1.40 Volts
ThrO -> Max Output = 4.10 Volts

When i look at the throttle display screen, if i just open the throttle a little the bottom left read out starts to rise untill it max's out even with the input voltage only showing 0.9v, is this correct?

This is odd. With the throttle closed, the screen should show Vi=0.85 Vo=1.40.
As you increase the throttle Vi should rise to 4.19 and Vo should rise to 4.10.

Your situation is outside my limited testing this afternoon - this one will need help from Justin...

[teklektik]

Thank you very much, so if i take the green wire off the CA board and run one from that pad to my controllers original throttle input wire it should all work?

Exactly - you need that connection.

Your Vo level in your last post confuses me, but I'm just hacking this along with everyone else, so there may be other parameter interactions in play we haven't quite figured out yet that will explain the different Vo behavior between your unit and mine - it will all become clear soon I'm sure .

Anyhow - make the throttle connection and see how it goes.

[Cowardlyduck]

I know it's probably a bit late for new features in this version of the CA, maybe for a future version.

Would it be possible to measure and display the current motor efficiency as a percentage?

I guess it would rely on the motor load being readable in some way.

I have no idea if it's technically possible, but thought it would be a nice feature if it is.

Cheers

[lizardboy]

Ok thanks I couldn't see the silk screening over there as it was blocked by a square yellow component. All is working great now. Used the yellow wire to send the throttle signal to the CA and the green wire to send it back to the controller Very neat. Thanks for the help

[Tench]

Thank you very much, so if i take the green wire off the CA board and run one from that pad to my controllers original throttle input wire it should all work?

Exactly - you need that connection.

Your Vo level in your last post confuses me, but I'm just hacking this along with everyone else, so there may be other parameter interactions in play we haven't quite figured out yet that will explain the different Vo behavior between your unit and mine - it will all become clear soon I'm sure .

Anyhow - make the throttle connection and see how it goes.

I connected the throttle output up correctly and all is well, it runs i have had a brief play but still need to spend some time experimenting with the ramp up and gains to find the best setup for my bike, the improvement in initial throttle action is well worth the cost of the V3, i can now ride as slow as i like in the lowest gear with brilliant control yet it still wheelies away if you want it to

[shorza]

Hey Justin, any idea when these might be off 'Beta'? I'm trying to figure out if it's worth buying one now, or waiting.

[teklektik]

I connected the throttle output up correctly and all is well, it runs i have had a brief play but still need to spend some time experimenting with the ramp up and gains to find the best setup for my bike...

Excellent news! I'll be doing the same tweaking myself today.

I updated the v3B12 setup notes based on the questions above so basic setup is a little more step-by-step. This isn't as good as doc from Justin but he's kind of overloaded - maybe this will help a bit until an official version can be produced...

[hjns]

I updated the v3B12 setup notes based on the questions above so basic setup is a little more step-by-step. This isn't as good as doc from Justin but he's kind of overloaded - maybe this will help a bit until an official version can be produced...

Brilliant. In order to facilitate development of this "step-by-step-manual", I created a Google Docs Word document, to allow other people to contribute, because you should not be the only one "responsible" for this. If you and/or anybody who really wants to contribute to this can PM me your email address, I can give you editing rights. All people can leave comments, so the sporadic visitor can help out as well.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1x8S ... uVRVU/edit

Maybe after exploring / explaining the most important stuff, we can submit it to the WIKI pages / create a nice printable booklet.

[oatnet]

Personally, I'll continue to refer to teklektik's post, because it keeps the data on E:S, and as a rule I avoid giving Google any more data than I have to. I don't see much point to porting knowledge off E:S and into a wiki someone else controls either.

Teklektik, thanks for the content you generated!

-JD

[teklektik]

You're very welcome. It's just unofficial 'discovered' stuff - hope it helps, but no promises...

[hjns]

Well, whatever you prefer. Just trying to help.

teklektik, great stuff. Thanks!

[teklektik]

In order to facilitate development of this "step-by-step-manual", I created a Google Docs Word document, to allow other people to contribute, ... Maybe after exploring / explaining the most important stuff, we can submit it to the WIKI pages / create a nice printable booklet.

I see where you are going with this - a helpful idea, but I would prefer to avoid the linear format of a Word document in lieu of being able to hyperlink posts (I confess to being unfamiliar with Google Word Doc crossref capability but MS Word crossrefs are a PITA). I see difficulties in linking ES posts to specific chapters/sections of a Google Doc for reference. Also, due to the loss of formatting and different composition capabilities of Google Word Doc vs. a Wiki, it would make more sense to simply use the Wiki directly - Wikis were intended for hyperlinked content and multi-user contribution.

What say we continue along in this thread for a bit and revisit the shared doc concept if we experience noteworthy shortfalls with the current format? I would personally feel better about making the jump if we had a clear issue to address to offset some of the downsides to the linear medium and problematic cross-site content references.

[Cowardlyduck]

I know it's probably a bit late for new features in this version of the CA, maybe for a future version.

Would it be possible to measure and display the current motor efficiency as a percentage?

I guess it would rely on the motor load being readable in some way.

I have no idea if it's technically possible, but thought it would be a nice feature if it is.

Cheers

Anyone care to comment on this. Would it even be possible?

Cheers

[Alan B]

Not practical, output power is missing. You have RPM and input power but output torque is unknown, phase current is unknown, pwm duty cycle is unknown, so not quite enough information to do it.

Be very nice to do, though.

[lizardboy]

Anyone having problems with the Rshunt calibration? Changing the value in this field doesn't seem to do anything. Ive tried many values all result in exactly the same readings. Mines off currently by a factor of 4 I've of course set it to the value I used in my previous cycle analyst. Could just be a test value left in the program any comments?

[teklektik]

Cal->Rshunt appears to be working properly for me.

However, a couple of days of testing and Justin's remarks about incomplete functionality and coming revisions have led me to use only a basic v2.23 mode of operation with

• ThrI->CntrlMode = Pass-thru, running the throttle through the CA instead of in override mode as I had the v2.23 unit configured.
• Ctrl->AuxFunct = Amps Lim to handle external limiting switches
• The ramp functionality has given me problems and I have left ThrO->UpRamp = 999, ThrO->DownRamp = 999.
• Power limiting (by Watts) is problematic causing speed oscillations even with Plim->WGain = 01.
  I am using Plim->Max Power = (controller_rating) (a comparatively large value) to effectively deactivate power limiting at lower speeds.
• SLim->MaxSpeed = 99 to effectively deactivate speed limiting

Also:

• Ctrl->AuxFunct = PowerLim does not appear to be implemented.
• Resetting the trip statistics causes the throttle to burp and the bike to lurch - be careful.

I have had a number of issues, some of which are showstoppers, but which are no doubt related to the very preliminary nature of this release and so are not worth relating.

On the upside, the kit of CA + supporting components is very complete and the hardware is in hand, installed, and operating properly .
I am looking forward to improved v3B13 firmware with anticipation (in spite of the inauspicious version number... )

[lizardboy]

What controller are you using I'm using a 9fet and expect to have a 5 m/ohm shunt perhaps yours is working because your controller matches the shunt value that appears to be the defaut.
Not sure, what I can tell you is that I've tried values from .25 to 10 and get exactly the same wattage it peaks at 334 when normally this should be 1512 or so perhaps some other calibration setting is affecting my readings. The voltmeter appears a to be off by a bit so maybe that skewing something. I'm well aware it's a beta just trying to report what appears to be a show stopper for me.

[teklektik]

... perhaps yours is working because your controller matches the shunt value that appears to be the defaut.

Nope - I'm using a CA standalone shunt dongle and specifically set the appropriate value. I tried altering the Cal->RShunt value just as a test after you reported difficulties, and the displayed Amperage changed appropriately. My Amp/Watt readings match the older v2.23 unit.

You have something else going on...

[Tench]

Mine also blips the throttle when the reset button is pressed good job it was on the stand when i first did this!

I dont use the Amps limit as i run at the contoller max current, i shall try lowering it to see if mine works, i will try this with power and speed limits too.

Another thing i noticed is when set to current throttle, with the drive wheel off the floor if i open the throttle just a little to get the wheel spinning the throttle output voltage generated by the CA (on the 2 click left screen) will climb untill it reaches the preset max figure while the throttle imput voltage is still near to minimum, can someone else try this to see if it is just my unit?

Also if the throttle output max is set to be lower than the throttle input max then full output throttle voltage is achieved before the throttle is wound to the wot position creating a dead spot at the top of the throttle, it was in current mode when this was noticed, i have not tried it in any other mode yet.

I do like the throttle ramp up, i have mine set to 200 with the throttle in current control mode, grab a big handfull and the bike takes off strong but smooth with the power building as the revs rise quite like an ICE powered bike.
In this mode the motor seems to make more "noise" than it did with the V2.25, and trying to hold it on a steady throttle at very slow speeds up a slight gradient has the power delivery oscilating up and down, i dont know why, i will try the various limits to try and iron it out.

I have loaded the shunt value from the previous V2.25 unit and all apears well, i will keep my eye on that to see if it gives the same watts per mile etc.

How do i find out the IR for my pack? 18s2p 30c Zippy 8000mah lipo? The icharger can measure IR but i charge it as 6s6p so the value will be different wont it?

But i love it!! the fine control of the throttle parameters and adjustable ramp up has ironed out the abruptness it had before and made me very glad i got one When Justin has got all the bugs out i shall have another for my next build!

Simon.

[teklektik]

How do i find out the IR for my pack?

See Step 10 in setup notes.

[toolman2]

Another thing i noticed is when set to current throttle, with the drive wheel off the floor if i open the throttle just a little to get the wheel spinning the throttle output voltage generated by the CA (on the 2 click left screen) will climb untill it reaches the preset max figure while the throttle imput voltage is still near to minimum, can someone else try this to see if it is just my unit?

But i love it!! the fine control of the throttle parameters and adjustable ramp up has ironed out the abruptness it had before and made me very glad i got one When Justin has got all the bugs out i shall have another for my next build!

Simon.

when you have current based throttle, thats exactly what should happen, it should only take a few % throttle (if the motor is unloaded) to get up to full rpm. its also appears "normal" for people to initially not get what current/torque throttle is all about, for some reason everyone i have ever explained the reason and need for current throttle (and not speed throttle) on high torque machines goes into debate/denial mode before acctually understanding it.

but the good news is that its a massive improvement in throttle control and is really badly needed on a geared motor like yours, i might just add a quick told you so if you dont mind tench and now with justins fine work and some fine tuning, we can all maintain way better control of our increasingly powerful 'flip you off the back cos the throttles so touchy' type machines.

i reckon lukes agni bike vid (the you know the bike is dangerous one) with the poor dude laying down behind the bike shoeless, would have been a lovely and peaceful bicycle ride if it had a well tuned current throttle..

[Alan B]

If Luke's Agni was not exciting he would not have built it.

[lizardboy]

Hi I'm still having trouble with the current sensing. I checked the wiring from the the board through to the controller and it has continuity and everything apears to be wired properly in the CA. Tomorrow I'll hook up a constant current source and read the millivolts at the terminals of the CA that should nail it down. I could also rewire the throttle and put the old CA back as a test. Seems funny that it reads some wattage and current just at the wrong values. I would have expected a wiring problem with that kind of reading. It can't be settings or firmware if it works for other people.

[Tench]

but the good news is that its a massive improvement in throttle control and is really badly needed on a geared motor like yours, i might just add a quick told you so if you dont mind tench and now with justins fine work and some fine tuning, we can all maintain way better control of our increasingly powerful 'flip you off the back cos the throttles so touchy' type machines.

i reckon lukes agni bike vid (the you know the bike is dangerous one) with the poor dude laying down behind the bike shoeless, would have been a lovely and peaceful bicycle ride if it had a well tuned current throttle..

Thanks Toolman2, i am still on a steep learning curve with this game, atleast now i know a little more

If you want lovely and peacefull that is fine, each to there own, me i would prefere a wild ride the step forward this V3 has given us towards taming the beasts we build is massive, i am now having thoughts about ME0709's with aux pot power limiting