Luna Cargo Frame with TDCM igh

Get real world experience and user feedback on the electric bicycle products.
Post Reply
User avatar
panurge
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 631
Joined: Feb 03, 2011 3:36 am
Location: Firenze - Berlin

Luna Cargo Frame with TDCM igh

Post by panurge » Nov 27, 2016 10:04 am

Hello folks
Unfortunately It was impossible for me to arrange a direct shipping of a Luna Cargo frame directly from Lunacycles to my shop here in Italy, for a customer who's obsessioned by that frame, so, the customer has ordered it himself for shipping in the US and forwarded it to Italy from his own US address.
So there's actually a Luna Cargo fat frame here in Italy.... :)
Having white paper from the customer, I decided to try the hard but not impossible fit of a TDCM igh motor from Grin Tech.

Since the Luna cargo fat has an uncommon 135mm rear dropout (uncommon for fats obviously) the TDCM fits well, not the best chainline with a 100mm BB shell, but with some effort it is acceptable. Sadly the luna frame has an exaggerated chaistay length and the plan to re-project the rear rh dropout to allow a belt installation couldn't be achieved. At least until Gates will offer a properly sized belt....

Here some first impression and lacing details:

ANTIROTATION PLATE:
As per Justin's advice in the existing TDCM thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 4#p1196093 , The motor has an anti-rotation torque plate that is independent from the axle and features a long slot that fit better on sliders than on standard dropouts.
Here is where the spinningmagnet consideration would apply:
I think this is a great option for vintage bicycles, because mid-drives are very problematic to fit a curved downtube...
Yes, if you plan a nice and clean old style cruiser conversion, with curved tubing and slide dropouts, with a single speed chain or belt setup over an IGH, the non standard curved downtube of many cruisers and vintage style frames as well as their non standard stays/tubes insertions in the Bottom Bracket node, often makes a crankdrive installation from very hard to impossible, there, the TDCM is the only option.

Anyway the more i think (and look) at the antirotation plate the more I'm persuaded it should do its job even better than standard slotted washers and nuts that direct hubmotors have on the axle: the contact surface with the dropout is wider and is also acting over a much bigger leverage radius. The material appears to be stronger than usual slotted stuff....the splined/pinned coupling interface is strong and well engineered.....we will see the real world responses soon, and I'm mostly concerned about the regen ability.

SPOKES AND DIMENSIONS
the Flange pattern diameter allows a safe 1cross lacing with near 80° of nipples angle on 26" rims, however the outer edges of the spoke's holes are very sharp. This is not ideal for standard lacing with the risk of damaging the spoke's J-bends and head joints. So after some mulling, I decided, since it's not certainly a trail bike, to lace it (on a 80mm rim) with sapim strong butted spokes, the heads all inside, using standard over cross touch between the couples. (sorry I have not the proper technical lexicon about wheel builds :oops: but hope to be understandable), other possible options with this kind of spokes would be to interlace from left rim holes to right hub holes and vice-versa, or modify the outer hole's edges and bend a lot the "inner head" spokes, lacing standard.
Another approach (that will be plan "B" if this lacing job will show signs of failure) is to use 2.5mm quality straight moped spokes lacing without over-cross, so without touch at the intersections.


CABLE EXIT and SLOT ORIENTATION
the phases, thermal sensor and Hall wires come out from a LH side hole that's forced to be in front of the axle when installed in horizontal dropouts....this may be good or not depending from the dropout design. Also, the torque plate SLOT is forced to be in front of the axle in the dropout, not allowing a full deep slide of the axle into the slides, but in fact that sounds reasonable because the forces are concentrated in the slot interface instead of the axle so It should be the deeper part of the assembly into the horizontal dropouts. exactly as is seems projected for.....

LEFT SIDE SPACING
With this motor, due to the mentioned torque plate, it is impossible to use spacers for any purpose in the left end of the axle. could be possible on the RH side but that's not usually wanted.....the wheel results perfectly centered as a front wheel and in fact the only way to dish it is to bend the lower stays obtaining a more asymmetric frame.

OTHER CONSIDERATIONS
the motor plays in another class in terms of quality compared to standard hubmotors, it comes statorade ready, and now has the new better quality exit cables, and the thermistor yet installed. To work with chainlines there is the option to use a slightly dished cog that allows a 2-3 mm right offset.
The brake rptpr pattern is a 4 bolt rohloff standard, but the customer would like to try a front brake only setup (XTR) if the rear regen brake will be noticeable and reliable.
I've not powered it up (just a rapid bench test to check its functionality before to lace it up), SO mines are mostly first impressions and lacing procedures reports, actually, but in the next days I will test it extensively and will share my thoughts and will report log files of these tests from the Unofficial Sigmacom Cycle Analyst android App.

It will be powered by 20Ah 14s samsung cells....

here some first pics....
Attachments
TDCM laced.jpg
luna TDCM first stand.jpg
TDCM s.jpg
TDCM s.jpg (210.83 KiB) Viewed 3701 times
JulesL.


Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Onion MP6 - recumpence drives - CAV3 - CC HV160ESC - Astro 32204t

User avatar
mr.electric
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 760
Joined: Jan 03, 2007 12:12 pm
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

Re: Luna Cargo Frame with TDCM igh

Post by mr.electric » Nov 27, 2016 11:27 am

Cool build. I like the frame and the unique hub motor. Looking forward to the ride report.
-Fat Sand Bike with 9c and 29ah pack

-Giants mascot scooter

User avatar
panurge
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 631
Joined: Feb 03, 2011 3:36 am
Location: Firenze - Berlin

Re: Luna Cargo Frame with TDCM igh

Post by panurge » Nov 29, 2016 10:13 am

After the first short ride i can say It works fine. The chainline is acceptable although not perfect but works without issues even with a gusset single link chain (1/2 x 1/8).
There's a 5mm of room between the chain and the Felt zigzag tire.
Next step is a thudbuster seatpost.

Here are the specs for the whole bike:

FRAME: Luna Cargo Fat frame-set, with fenders, racks, handlebar and fork.
FRONT END: DTSwiss BR710 rim + White Industries SNOWHITE 135mm hub + 262mm Sapim Strong Black 3Cross standard lacing.
BACK END: stars-rims 80mm double wall plain rim + TDCM IGH 305rpm hub + 170mm Sapim Strong Black 1cross lacing
TIRES: FELT ZIG-ZAG 26"x4.0
BOTTOM BRACKET: TRUVATIV ISIS 100MM
CRANKSET: Brave Machine serial killah tubular cromoly
CHAINRING: Velosolo Single speed 42t 1/8
CHAIN: Gusset half link black 1/8
FRONT BRAKE: Shimano XT on a 180mm rotor.
REAR BRAKE: regen only
CA: V3 DP + aux adj. wheel
CONTROLLER: Grinfineon 40A
THROTTLE: Full Twist
REGEN THROTTLE: thumb
SHIFTER: the original Sturmey Archer 5-speed halfgrip shifter mounted LH
PAS: Quadrature PAS
LEDLIGHTS: GrinTech universal ledlights front and rear in black
BATTERIES: 14S 20Ah samsung 25R

More about regen setups and Logs soon.
Last edited by panurge on Dec 06, 2016 7:30 am, edited 3 times in total.
JulesL.


Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Onion MP6 - recumpence drives - CAV3 - CC HV160ESC - Astro 32204t

User avatar
panurge
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 631
Joined: Feb 03, 2011 3:36 am
Location: Firenze - Berlin

Re: Luna Cargo Frame with TDCM igh

Post by panurge » Nov 30, 2016 5:54 am

leverage radius.jpg
leverage radius.jpg (227.61 KiB) Viewed 3587 times
in this picture I've marked the huge difference in leverage radius between the TDCM stator torque arm (the interface insert) and the Sturmey Archer torque arm (flatted axle + plus slotted washer) that is what usually any hubmotor uses...The main concern with the TDCM IMHO is not the failure of that interface, but the fact that it acts only LH side, Again, the next days testing, will hopefully give some answer.
The System runs smooth with a 40+ kph top @50v, It's a bit noisy from stand, and resonance propagates thru the huge alloy frame..... :)
I've made 20 Km and the rear lacing seems to withstand the bumps of the ancient pavet of Florence.
Enjoy some more pics....
Attachments
20161129_164743-600x800.jpg
20161129_164743-600x800.jpg (132.27 KiB) Viewed 3587 times
20161129_164715-600x800.jpg
20161129_164715-600x800.jpg (134.07 KiB) Viewed 3587 times
20161129_164945-600x800.jpg
20161129_164945-600x800.jpg (106.79 KiB) Viewed 3587 times
20161129_164405-800x600.jpg
20161129_164405-800x600.jpg (143.08 KiB) Viewed 3587 times
JulesL.


Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Onion MP6 - recumpence drives - CAV3 - CC HV160ESC - Astro 32204t

User avatar
mr.electric
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 760
Joined: Jan 03, 2007 12:12 pm
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

Luna Cargo Frame with TDCM igh

Post by mr.electric » Dec 02, 2016 9:16 pm

Nice parts to complete the build. Rims and cranks look high end. Is the new TDCM with internal geared hub easy to operate? It probably looks clean on the drive side with just a single sprocket in place of a 7speed freewheel


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-Fat Sand Bike with 9c and 29ah pack

-Giants mascot scooter

User avatar
tomjasz
1.21 GW
1.21 GW
Posts: 3696
Joined: Mar 29, 2014 1:45 pm
Location: Out riding, MN USA
Contact:

Re: Luna Cargo Frame with TDCM igh

Post by tomjasz » Dec 03, 2016 1:54 am

Nice, consider. Suntour seat post for half the price. A toss up on comfort. Suntour will leave at least $50 in the pocket. Mine from Germany with spare spring around $70 shipped.

http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/sunt ... aQodNVMFwA

The Thudbuster is way overpriced.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

User avatar
waynebergman
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 776
Joined: May 07, 2011 4:20 pm
Location: Pender Harbour British Columbia Canada

Re: Luna Cargo Frame with TDCM igh

Post by waynebergman » Dec 03, 2016 9:22 pm

NIce going Jules. I also like those frames. They caught my eye way back when Eric did one of the early Mac mid drives on that frame. Cool bikes for sure!

User avatar
panurge
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 631
Joined: Feb 03, 2011 3:36 am
Location: Firenze - Berlin

Re: Luna Cargo Frame with TDCM igh

Post by panurge » Dec 05, 2016 9:18 am

Thanks for the kind words. Thats kinda clean build although a mere components and frameset assembly. I'll add some pics of the drive side soon. Also edited the component post with chainring (Velosolo ) and crankset (Brave machine)...
Tomorrow I'll put the frame in a jig table to bend the left side stays of the frame: actually the Dropouts are 143mm while the motor is 135, so when I tight the nuts these 8mm are distributed equally both sides.
I'll bend the left side only to clear these 8mm and get an effective 4mm right offset that adds to the 3mm right dish of the IGH cog I'm waiting for getting a 7mm better chainline. Than I'll have to dish a bit the wheel, I've room for that with the actual spokes length......
JulesL.


Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Onion MP6 - recumpence drives - CAV3 - CC HV160ESC - Astro 32204t

User avatar
panurge
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 631
Joined: Feb 03, 2011 3:36 am
Location: Firenze - Berlin

Re: Luna Cargo Frame with TDCM igh

Post by panurge » Dec 17, 2016 9:31 am

some chainline pictures after the bend/dish but without the dished cog (still waiting :evil: )
Also a short video with my buddy riding it down the street, don't be wrong if the bike seems small and very handable, the bike is really long indeed.... it's just my buddy, He is 1.95m tall and 90Kg, plus is a DH semi-pro rider (that means pro, here, He got the 18th italian absolute position last DH season).



The first strange behavior I've to notice is that the motor, as yet reported, seems very noisy from the low rpm. That's with halls connected to a Grinfineon 7240 controller, the sound than propagate through the big alloy tubings....Well, yesterday, while reinstalling the wheel after the frame bend operations, I missed to replug the halls and than had a short run....Surprisingly, the vibrations from the motor almost disappeared!!!! Perhaps something in the original hall wiring is wrong, so that it run better sensorless than sensored @ startup?

I will check on Monday
Attachments
20161215_185520-600x800.jpg
20161215_185520-600x800.jpg (121.56 KiB) Viewed 3313 times
20161215_185529-600x800.jpg
20161215_185529-600x800.jpg (121.31 KiB) Viewed 3313 times
JulesL.


Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Onion MP6 - recumpence drives - CAV3 - CC HV160ESC - Astro 32204t

Gregor
100 W
100 W
Posts: 120
Joined: Sep 04, 2011 2:31 pm
Location: One hour south of Omaha, Nebraska

Re: Luna Cargo Frame with TDCM igh

Post by Gregor » Mar 04, 2017 7:40 pm

How strong is the regen braking?

User avatar
spinningmagnets
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 10748
Joined: Dec 21, 2007 10:27 pm
Location: Ft Riley, NE Kansas

Re: Luna Cargo Frame with TDCM igh

Post by spinningmagnets » Mar 04, 2017 7:51 pm

If you want more power on acceleration, I would suggest adding a front geared hubmotor. Thanks for posting pics of this build.

User avatar
panurge
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 631
Joined: Feb 03, 2011 3:36 am
Location: Firenze - Berlin

Re: Luna Cargo Frame with TDCM igh

Post by panurge » Mar 06, 2017 6:08 pm

spinningmagnets wrote:If you want more power on acceleration, I would suggest a front geared hubmotor. Thanks for posting pics of this build.
I understand that point but She's good as is for the owner. He wanted the bike light as possible and clean. I could say it is surprisingly light and quick for the size, I agree that this frame naturally calls for a 2wd setup, though.

Unfortunately there's the problem, here, that you can drive an overpowered ebike without much problems if she's not exaggerated and if you drive within the limits, but mounting 2 motors you'll be banned, sooner or later. There are 2 violations that local cops (especially the ones with bicycles) look for on ebikes: throttle without pas and double motor, but while the throttle/pas interface couldn't be seen easily, and it is plenty of throttle legalized pedelecs (throttle works only if pas reads crank rotation) a double hubmotor is the easier violation to detect, even in movement, innocently pedaling at 10 in the bike lane :wink: .
JulesL.


Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Onion MP6 - recumpence drives - CAV3 - CC HV160ESC - Astro 32204t

User avatar
Matador
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 593
Joined: Jun 29, 2016 10:00 pm

Re: Luna Cargo Frame with TDCM igh

Post by Matador » Mar 06, 2017 6:17 pm

È molto bella questa bicicletta !

kurtster
1 mW
1 mW
Posts: 17
Joined: Oct 20, 2015 3:40 am
Location: Tierra del Sol Poniente

Re: Luna Cargo Frame with TDCM igh

Post by kurtster » Mar 07, 2017 12:24 pm

What a gorgeous build. As for the cops, I would think front-mounted panniers would go a long way to not drawing attention to a front hub, especially since you'd only need something small like a Q100 to boost acceleration. You could even just put a Shimano sticker on it and say its a hub dynamo. :D

I just finished putting the same motor (395 fast version) in a cargo bike. Very pleased with it so far. Dead silent compared to my other ebike with a Q128C, which is great because I was getting some funny looks when riding that.

Image

Image

User avatar
panurge
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 631
Joined: Feb 03, 2011 3:36 am
Location: Firenze - Berlin

Re: Luna Cargo Frame with TDCM igh

Post by panurge » Mar 08, 2017 10:04 am

Hey kurster, your is a very nice build indeed.
What kind of controller are you using? if you use regen, what kind of batteries/bms?
For now the bike reamains single motored, but in the future who knows,....the customer has spent some money for the front end and White Ind. hub, and sapim strong black spokes, that should be replaced are some 200$+....)
Matador wrote:È molto bella questa bicicletta !
Grazieee! :D
JulesL.


Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Onion MP6 - recumpence drives - CAV3 - CC HV160ESC - Astro 32204t

kurtster
1 mW
1 mW
Posts: 17
Joined: Oct 20, 2015 3:40 am
Location: Tierra del Sol Poniente

Re: Luna Cargo Frame with TDCM igh

Post by kurtster » Mar 09, 2017 4:28 am

Image

I'm using it with the Grinfineon 25A controller and a 14S / 14Ah battery. I opted for 25A to be on the safe side given the power range. Maybe 35A is fine. Anyway, the rear dropouts, although relatively beefy, are aluminum, so for now I haven't enabled regenerative braking.

This bike will mainly be used for hauling groceries and riding up to the station, so top speed is rarely reached. Oh, and speaking of top speed, sitting bolt upright, it hit 37 km/h without pedaling a few days ago. Takes a while to get there though...

Rube
100 W
100 W
Posts: 183
Joined: Jun 25, 2016 10:18 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Luna Cargo Frame with TDCM igh

Post by Rube » Mar 10, 2017 4:41 am

Great build and thanks for posting detailed information, I've been curious about this frame and it's really handy to read about your experience. I have been thinking of a similar approach using Grin products. Shame you are not further north or I would drop in to say hello in June.

User avatar
panurge
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 631
Joined: Feb 03, 2011 3:36 am
Location: Firenze - Berlin

Re: Luna Cargo Frame with TDCM igh

Post by panurge » Mar 28, 2017 2:45 am

eTrike wrote:Nice build! Double kid carrier too, haha! These IGH hubs are near perfect for my non-shifting preferences. Any data on hills?
Eh...Kids are for picture purposes only ^_^, I carry my Joys in a much more stable way ;)
kidstaxi.jpg
However the Luna frame should take that load without problems.

About the bike, the customer is pleased with the actual performances, I'll take the bike again today for minor services and to mount the final battery pack.

Since I've not that experience with regen and direct hubs (just with a pair of 9C and Clytes on old kelly setups), wonder about the best 18650 cells and configuration, with a grinfineon controller, to do that the best way: any advice and comment would be appreciated.

I'll put the Bluetooth module for the CA serial stream output to that bike next days to finally have and share, with the great Sigmacom android App, some datalogs about the bike: climbs, regen, acceleration, top speed and consumption....
JulesL.


Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Onion MP6 - recumpence drives - CAV3 - CC HV160ESC - Astro 32204t

Post Reply