408 or 409

What motor should i use ?

  • Crystalyte 409

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Crystalyte 408

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other.. please explain below !

    Votes: 2 100.0%

  • Total voters
    2

Ypedal

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2006
Messages
12,530
Location
Moncton NB, Canada
After many, many .. MANY reliable miles over the last 2 years, my rear 406/409 needs new bearings.

So.. if i have to take the wheel of the Chaos.. i may as well try a different motor ! :p

2nd detail : The current Lithium 72v 20ah packs are going to receive a Cerebral-Bypass .. as in BMS Bypass !!!1 :D

The plan is this:

-Crack open both Lexan boxes holding the battery packs that i worked so hard to put together, ( if any of you followed the Box build thread )

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1711&start=0

- Check pack ballance, and perform a 100 % DOD test while the cells are exposed to manually monitor the pack and BMS operation and Ballancing..

- Add 12 gauge leads to bypass the discharge portion of the BMS.

- Pray that i can re-glue the polycarb boxes without making a mess of the thing.

- Remove the 3pdt Relay setup on the bike currently for the Dual speed motor

- Mount a 72v 40 amp controller to the bike !!! :p :D :p

- Remove Disk brake cover from current 406/409 motor as i'm sure the thread-on adapter is on there permanently now ( not that i use my brakes hard.. but i suspect it's wedged in there )

AND THE BIG QUESTION !!!!!

What ever is most popular by Friday Morning Goes !
 
hey Ypeddle - i'm running the 408 -its a blast so i voted for that - it depends what your goals are though. remind me what size wheel it is again?

edit: crap i accidently voted for the 409 - whoops ok cast me as a 408 :p
 
How fast do you really want to go? How long do you expect your batteries to last? The 409 goes fast enough, power to up hills in a single bound, leaps over tall buildings and can stop speeding bullets. 408 simply goes fast on the level and downhill. Have an extra hamburger and then try and go up that hill. 409 lets you have two hamburgers, fries and a couple of beers and doesn't notice the difference.

Unless of course I've confused the two and in that case simply reverse my vote or disregard it completely. By now I've forgotten which I voted for anyway.

Mike
 
Your decision should be guided by your peak needed speed, your operating voltage, your wheel diameter, and the hubmotor simulator. Which, judging by this poll, and your statement in another thread that your 404 proved too fast in a 20" wheel, it seems you don't usually use to inform your decisions.
http://www.ebikes.ca/simulator/

Find the right winding by matching the power peak as close as possible to your peak needed speed.

C'mon Ypedal, start simulating yourself! :D
 
hahahah!

i think the 408 at 72v on a 20" rim would give plenty of hill climbing power! PLENTY!
 
Formula 409!

It's a car, a song by the Beach Boys.. AND a cleaning product.

I checked the http://www.ebikes.ca site, but 409 is not an option, yet.

Ypedal, were you planning to play with this thing off-road ONLY?

-S
 
Stevil_Knevil said:
I checked the http://www.ebikes.ca site, but 409 is not an option, yet.

Bummer. However it does have the 408 and 411, and for comparison we know the 409 to be between those two, towards the 408 side.
 
xyster said:
C'mon Ypedal, start simulating yourself! :D

:D

The simulator, great tool, i use it just about every day,

However, Quote :

Accuracy and Limitations

The parameter values that are choosen for the motor model are based on directly measured data that we have compiled from tests using a custom built dynamometer made for the task.



Our dynamo setup is presently limited to a maximum loading of about 5 N-m, so it can only confirm the simulation at the higher end of the speed range. When the motor is heavily loaded, it causes all of the copper wires and windings to heat up, increasing their resistance and resulting in less torque and power than the simulator may indicate. There is also a fair bit of deviation from one hub motor to the next from Crystalyte because they are all hand made. This is especially true of the cogging torque, which has an effect on the peak efficiency of the setup. The performance charactersistics listed on the crystalyte website for the 400 series motors seem to be off by about 20%. These values appear to have been generated with an earlier and weaker magnet arrangement.

The characteristics for the battery packs are also from our own independent testing, with the value for Rbatt calculated from the DC impedance from 1C - 2C loading, and with VOC chosen at the 50% state of charge. A freshly charged pack would be faster and more powerful than indicated, while a nearly flat pack would be slower.

Finally, the program does not simulate the low voltage rollback of the controller. If you have a setup with a particularly high impedance battery, like a 5Ah NiCd, it is possible that in real life it would hit the low voltage point at high loadings and have a lower power output
""

This is why hands-on testing is important, the simulator provides aprox parameters to the end result.

The difference between " What it could and will probably do " and " What it actually does "


So far, i must say the simulator and real life testing have been very close, Justin has done an excellent good job of keepings things ' Real ' !!
 
That and as said above, the 409 is not in the simulator yet.

Looks like 409 so far, i'm going to open up a new hub and bring hub and cover to a local bearing shop, the ceramic suggestion is one i've considered before, bare minimum i want to use quality bearings vs what's stock oem part..

I also want to push the limits of the 4 series and see how much abuse it can take, power wise..
 
Ypedal said:
xyster said:
C'mon Ypedal, start simulating yourself! :D

:D

The simulator, great tool, i use it just about every day,

However, Quote :
...
So far, i must say the simulator and real life testing have been very close, Justin has done an excellent good job of keepings things ' Real ' !!

Exactly. The simulator results are in accordance with empirical tests. My real-life top speed is right at the simulator's power peak for my motor. I'm assuming most system's top speed is similar situated near the simulator's power peak. How about yours? Even if not, it's easy to find where your peak speed lies in relation to the simulator's curves, and use that information to decide on the right motor for different parameters.

Anyway, should be more useful than an opinion poll. Nothing against opinion polls...but on matters of science and fundamental fact, unlike policy or interpretation, it doesn't make much sense to ask, "what's your opinion of 2 + 2?"
 
Justin is a Maestro - no doubt. There is, however, one claim he has made on his site that conflicts with my e-bike sensibilities: http://www.ebikes.ca/hubmotors.shtml

e-bikes.ca site said:
One false and oft-repeated conclusion is that therefor the 409 is a higher torque motor than the 406 because it can produce the same torque with fewer amps, or likewise more torque with the same amps. This is not the case.

Paired with this statement...

"Our dynamo setup is presently limited to a maximum loading of about 5 N-m, so it can only confirm the simulation at the higher end of the speed range."

..then combined with his thinking-out-loud ramble at the bottom of this (from '05) page..

"Another consequence of having a larger number of turns around each stator is that the voltage induced in the winding by the passing magnets is increased. So for instance, at a certain speed of rotation, the Increasing Voltage torque vs. speed, not really 72V? 96V? Get a grip motor current vs battery current regen basics water protection Dual Speed tapped windings 2 motors one controller? No, just one throttle Forwards and reverse Unloaded Torque? Front Vs Rear Energy Usage "How many amps does the 40X draw at Y volts?" Smaller Diameter for higher power How to chose hub motor algorithm: Select your desired cruising speed Select your wheel circumference Select your voltage"

.. has convinced me that extensive empirical testing needs to be done.

I nominate Ypedal. 8)


-S

P.S. HIGHLY recommending the ceramic bearing approach for any-road app's
 
I voted for the 5305. Then again, it is a tad more expensive... And I have neither empirical nor anecdotal evidence to back up my argument... I'm going to crawl into my unscientific hole...
 
Back
Top