Suspension

To you, suspension is

  • not necessary, fat/large tires will do the trick.

    Votes: 6 6.9%
  • a pleasant luxury but I can live without it.

    Votes: 18 20.7%
  • nice, one wheel is good, maybe the wheel bearing more weight.

    Votes: 14 16.1%
  • essential, it's gotta be full suspension.

    Votes: 44 50.6%
  • just for looks/waste of time.

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • I HAVE A POGO STICK! IT GOES BOUNCE BOUNCE BOUNCE!

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • other

    Votes: 4 4.6%

  • Total voters
    87

bowlofsalad

100 kW
Joined
Feb 1, 2013
Messages
1,540
Location
Midwest, USA
Pointless? Vanity? Essential? Luxury?

I found a used bike with full suspension, but I have pretty much zero experience in the matter, especially concerning ebikes, so maybe the popular opinion will yield some buying guidance.
 
I voted for the fat tires but never actually used them what I like is a front suspension fork and a thud buster seat post. I like this setup because it leaves more room for batteries.

Bob
 
Hi,

Cheap is good.

Full Suspension is good.

But cheap Full Suspension is bad.
 
spinningmagnets said:
If you have a hardtail, I highly recommend the $140 Thudbuster seat-post. Sounds expensive, but...I have one.
To be perfectly honest, a comfortable ride sounds like it is worth a whole lot more than 140 dollars. I've heard of more than a few cyclists complaining of sore butts, backs, wrists and so on.
 
More depends on the kind of riding. Sometimes it will add Unused weight. If you are in a nice deveoloped area, with newly paved roads and offroading is an option for you, why go fo the option that more then likely fills up your triangle with more battery's?
 
Most of those complaints are because their bike isnt' sized right for them, and/or isnt' adjusted correctly to fit them. I doubt that even 1 in 10,000 people riding a bicycle in the USA have a correctly-fit bike; it's probably a big reason most poeple that get one never ride it more than a few times before tossing it in the garage. Poke around on Sheldon Brown's website for more about that.



But regarding suspension, MattyCiii said it pretty well. :)


It depends on what you expect and what your needs are. No suspension at all is fine on really good roads, with a normal bike and normal riding, especially if you are pedalling, because you raise yourself off the seat for any bumps that do come up, and let your knees and ankles flex to take it, along with wrists and elbows.

But if you ride offroad, well, that's a whole other story.


If like me you ride on poorly maintained city streets, with heavy cargo, at medium (20MPH) speeds, at least decent suspension is necessary to not break wheels. I've broken more rear wheels on CrazyBike2 and DayGlo Avenger than I care to think about, just because of small potholes and such, that were nto avoidable for one reason or another. Both bikes are hardtails, but have decent front suspension--so front wheels never break, even when I put heavy loads on them in the same situation.


If suspension to prevent bike failure is not needed, but only for rider comfort, Thudbuster is a good solution. Another is a suspended-mesh seat, like I use on CrazyBike2, and like other recumbents and such may use as well. It's like sitting in a hammock--it can sway or move as needed, and not transfer all of the shock energy directly to your butt, unlike a regular saddle or other seat usually does.

Sheldon Brown also has an article about comfortable saddles, but that's separate from the suspension issue.
 
I run no suspension on a >60lb cargo bike at 20-45mph. This is only possible with the 2.5" tires i use, a fat spring seat, and a long chromoly frame that helps absorb shock and has a tiny bit of springy-ness to it.

The bike really feels like a car.
Full suspension would be a lot nicer though, but good luck finding a cargo frame with that. Maybe i'll go with front suspension eventually.

OK, now on my aluminum trek 4500 with a half-decent, well tuned spring shock up front, 2.0" flatproof tires, and a spring seat? far less comfy. For regular bike geometry, and especially if the frame is aluminum, i'd definitely want dual suspension.

If i could think of a perfect scenario, it'd be a dual suspension chromoly bike about 6 inches longer than most bikes ( that length being *behind* the seat post to put the rider weight closer to the front of the bike ). There would be no need for fatter tires, which have high rolling resistance and hurt your efficiency, unless you're dealing with inclement weather or have so much power that you're burning through tires!
 
OK, on the topic of actual riding posture and such...

I find that upright is *far* less fatiguing over long rides... i'm talking over 2 hours. Default mountain bike geometry is designed for short periods of recreation, same with road bikes.

I've became so enthralled with the upright position that i've converted every bike i've owned over to it, after experimenting with the stock positioning, and even sort of a hyper-forward kinda position.

summer2011.jpg


dabomb3.jpg


Suspension seat posts can be cool, if they have short travel. I find the thudbuster a bit too pricey for my liking and the construction worries me a bit as i'm a 250lbs rider.

I have tried all sorts of gel seats. I've tried seats with those black elastomers. Nothing, i mean nothing beats a big fat ass spring seat with huge springs on it.

Walmart has a buttload of them for sale. Most bike stores don't carry them, or maybe they'll have just one model!

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Schwinn-DLX-Cruiser-Suspension-Saddle/17248456

IMG_3999.jpg


^-- just bought one of these, good balance of low pedaling interference and cushyness. If you are lighter, you don't need something this cushy and can go with a lighter seat though.

These are a good alternative to the thudbuster if you are strapped for cash or just not confident in it.

Another thing i like for comfort is a crank shorter than 175mm. 170mm-165mm seems to be the sweet spot. I'm 6 foot and have long legs, but the shorter stroke just seems to bring less fatigue to the knees over really long periods of riding, like 2-4 hours.
 
Having ridden hardtails for years – switch to a front suspension in 1991 was a dream for mountain biking in Austin. Then I got into ebikes and didn’t know how badly I was being beaten until I built my present f/s ebike. On The Road in 2010, after a day of riding - within an hour after getting off the bike I was stiff and sore, and crip’n around like an old man; the following year none of that reoccurred on the f/s ebike. It’s a godsend! :D

Phatty tires, correct seat matching, gloves, and alternative handlebar positioning all contribute to better comfort.

Ride on, KF
 
I like the idea of rear susepnsion to help take some of the beating the rear wheel gets on rough roads/pot holes etc. Good riding technique, slowing down etc and good wheel and spoke maintenance makes is the best way to keep a wheel true, but a rear suspension bike with a rear hub motor takes some of the beating away from teh rim and is taken up by the shock.
 
The voting results so far are very compelling. I really didn't expect such a heavy sway towards full suspension, or suspension at all.

Breaking a wheel seems incredible and extremely scary/dangerous. I've read that a critical component in how much weight a bicycle wheel can hold relates to the wheel's balance. However, balancing a wheel is a mystery to me. I've watched dozens of videos and read several articles, but I can't say I know how. I think if I was worried about breaking balanced wheels, I'd start considering trailers or bigger tires/wheels.

There are a lot of interesting and insightful suggestions here. What sounds like the absolute best setup for a comfortable ride in practically any situation is a recumbent bicycle with a mesh seat, fat tires such as big apple, and full suspension, if only the thudbuster could be used on a recumbent : P.
 
amberwolf said:
If like me you ride on poorly maintained city streets,
Check.
with heavy cargo,
Check.
at medium (20MPH) speeds,
Check
at least decent suspension is necessary to not break wheels.
Ummm, no.

What you need is decent wheels.

I know you are dealing only with stuff you can get for free, which limits your palette of options somewhat.

But I ride with all the above criteria, plus a body weight of about 325 pounds now and more than 400 pounds in the past. I have had front suspension on a few bikes, but they have not performed better overall than unsuspended bikes. And I don't use rear suspension because of its detrimental effects on frame structural integrity.

My wheels hold up just fine.

I've broken more rear wheels on CrazyBike2 and DayGlo Avenger than I care to think about, just because of small potholes and such,

I think that an important qualifier to add is that you refuse to buy wheels that are suitable for your application, and that instead you repurpose wheels that are not suitable, but are free of charge to you. That is a major distinction.
 
Chalo said:
at least decent suspension is necessary to not break wheels.
Ummm, no.

What you need is decent wheels.

I know you are dealing only with stuff you can get for free, which limits your palette of options somewhat.
<snip>
I think that an important qualifier to add is that you refuse to buy wheels that are suitable for your application, and that instead you repurpose wheels that are not suitable, but are free of charge to you. That is a major distinction.
Fair enough. :oops:

It's not really that I refuse to buy them, just that I haven't found any at a price I can afford (which is not very much on my best day, and nothing on the worst). Also, I am not entirely certain that a bicycle wheel can do what I want, but I have no experience with really tough bicycle rims, so there could be something that would do it, with an appropriately fat tire.


Probably OT, but, I'm curious--Chalo: what's the largest, deepest, sharpest-edged pothole you've hit without damaging your wheel, with that kind of load?

Most of the ones around here are not that bad, probably an inch or two deep, and a few inches across at worst, and not too sharp-edged.

But there are some from "sinkhole" effects at edges of roads that can be a foot or two across and 3-4" to a foot deep, anything from gently sloping down to the little hole in the center (really at the road edge, usually) or just a sharp drop off if the pavement has collapsed into the hole already. These can be some of the worst, too, because if you ride across one that's already large it can crumble more under you as you pass--and it does so with every car that goes over it, but cars aren't usually that close to the edge of the road to run over these things. I try never to be, but there are times in heavy traffic I don't have much choice, depending on location. Slowing down is best but on occasion the situation comes up so fast I cant' plan and react quick enough to avoid it.

IIRC this type is the worst one I ever rode into, which broke multiple spokes (on an admittedly crappy wheel) on CrazyBike2's rear wheel, and bent the rim, back when I was still using the middrive powerchair motor setup. I don't remember how deep ti was, but it actually stopped me completely, from around 17MPH or so (my fastest speed at that time), with the rear wheel stuck in the hole, and the rear BB/chainrings hitting the pavement. It didn't look that deep before I hit it, most likely collapsed more as I rode over it. I'd avoided it with the front wheel, but not with the rear--in this case any suspension I can envision wouldn't've mattered, and I expect that the front wheel would've dug in the same way, and I'd've probably flipped end over end launching me into the air. There ought to be a post on the old blog about it with a pic, I think. Don't remember when, though--been too long. :(

Some of the potholes are just places where a couple of inches deep of pavement has come out in chunks--those are often smallish, a few inches across, or maybe very long but not very wide. One of this type toasted a cheap but decent enough 24" alloy wheel (off a late 80s / early 90s Schwinn Ranger), again on CB2 while I had the middrive--I don't remmeber the speed but the rim got a flatspot when I hit the pothole. At one point I think I reused taht rim, forgetting it had the problem until I picked it up, and then deciding to try to use it anyway, but it was definitely not re-usable.

Some are just "waves" of pavement that have pushed up from an inch or two up to 4-5 inches (as high as the curb!), vs the concrete gutter or corner or other stuff along the road. Those are often deceptive especially in daylight becuase you don't see them as they slowly rise up and then suddenly fall off on the far side, but the worst ones are the ones you can see coming but can't avoid because of traffic, and have the sharper edge on the approach.

Some are places where they started to repair something, then covered it with a metal plate as a temporary patch, then went away and apparently forgot about the repair (ran out of money? time? I dunno), and then someone stole the plate (presumably for the recycling money), leaving a gaping hole that starts out filled with loose dirt (at best), a foot to several feet across, and getting deeper with every car that goes thru it and every rain (or watering cycle if it's near a place with lawn sprinklers that leak or overspray into the road). These are probably the largest, deepest ones, but they are the rarest for me to ever see. I've never run over one, as they are usually so large I feel as if I'd fall in (and I almost certainly would crash if I rode into one--some cars have been damaged by doing so!).

Similarly, sometimes people have taken the metal grates off of road-edge drains, leaving a heck of a hole in the road--small, a foot or two across, but very deep and right-angle-sharp-edged.
 
Shoot man, I am avoiding Arizona. I hear that the city government is responsible for damage to cars relating to road conditions like pot holes. I am sure this varies, but some of those holes sound like a bit much. I am honestly surprise you weren't horribly injured coming to an abrupt stop on an upright bicycle from 17mph.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng4Kmc_mzDU < This is Amber wolf after hitting one of his Arizona potholes.
 
"To you, suspension is" essentual, and so I answered that way. To Me
But I cracked my spine years ago and was told never to ride a bike again. And I obeyed for a decade.. But life is too short to give up the things you love. I'm not in any pain these days, but if I spend too much time on a riged frame bike I could be, and I had troubles the first couple years I was back on a bike, so for me, a good suspension is the key to continued enjoyment. ... That and I like to ride like an idiot on Caffiene, so I need a bike that can survive me.

So my bike has 12 inches of travel front and rear, and 4 inch tires inflated to just 20 pounds.

But Suspension isn't needed at speeds below 30mph on the road. A well built bike and a clean riding style should survive anything you can throw at it.

pro tip: Skip ahead to 1 minute.
[youtube]5z1fSpZNXhU[/youtube]

Hmm, not sure why thats broken.. here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z1fSpZNXhU&t=1m0s
 
My worst pothole incident was on my first e-bike, which had a sturdy 700c rear wheel (Rhyno Lite rim, 36 spokes, symmetrical BMX hub with RH/LH threading, generous 700x38 tire which I kept inflated to 100 psi). The bike weighed about 80 pounds and I weighed about 380 at that time.

I was riding in a substandard width bike lane in the Port of Seattle, in rainy conditions. A puddle partially concealed a pothole crossing the entire bike lane. The break in the surface was smaller than the diameter of my 700c wheel, but large enough to allow the wheel to drop in a few inches without resting on the bottom. I was negotiating with truck traffic at modest speed (perhaps 15 mph) and was surprised by the appearance of the pothole. At the last moment, I pulled up and sort of skipped the front wheel over the hole, but dropped the rear wheel in and hit very hard. 30 pounds of sealed lead-acid on the rear rack top hammered the wheel into the edge of the hole. If I had stuffed the front wheel into the hole, I expect I'd have bent the bike's fork. The impact was hard enough that I had to pull off and gather my wits.

Because of the extreme tire pressure and to my surprise, the tire was not pinched or otherwise punctured, but the rim was significantly flat spotted over a span of about four spokes. I still have that wheel and it's still usable, but the flat spot is severe enough to feel a bump when rolling on a smooth surface.

If I'd had suspension on the bike at the time of that incident, it might possibly have saved the wheel from damage. But it also might have interfered with my ability to pick up the front wheel at an instant's notice and thus resulted in me stuffing the front wheel instead of the rear, causing a crash.

Potholes and buckles in the street are more treacherous than rough terrain, because they arise as exceptions to an otherwise decent surface that allows to to carry some speed. Therefore you're likely to be moving too fast to react appropriately when you encounter one.
 
bowlofsalad said:
Shoot man, I am avoiding Arizona.
As a cyclist if I were to avoid AZ, I'd do it because of the aggressive drivers rather than the roads themselves. :lol: If it werent' for the drivers it'd be easy to avoid the road problems.

I hear that the city government is responsible for damage to cars relating to road conditions like pot holes. I am sure this varies, but some of those holes sound like a bit much.
Some of them *are* pretty bad. Most of them are just annoying, a fair number could damage the bike if I hit them (or have done so) when heavily loaded. I dunno if the city could be bothered to be responsible for much of anything, honestly. :( I can virtually guarantee they wouldn't do anything about a cyclist hurt by anything they neglected--they might do it for a car. Maybe.

I expect places up north where there's lots of salted roads to get snow and ice off them are much worse than here.

THey do actually patch holes reasonably often--but they don't do it right, they just pour more asphalt into them, without even cleaning the dirt and debris out first usually, and that means when it gets hot in the summer the asphalt sticks to car tires that go over it and it comes out in chunks, breaks up, and water/etc gets in there and takes care of emptying it right back out again. It sometimes doesn't even take the full summer season to do it back the way it was, or worse.

The sinkholes don't get fixed properly either, most of the time--they just get the same pour-it-in treatment, not filling in the hole underneath causing the problem. Or sometimes they do cut out a block of pavement and pour dirt in then cover it with a little asphalt (2-4"), but that's not enough, by far. Needs to have proper roadbed repairs done, with different sized gravel and rock, then concrete and then asphalt. But a lot of roads here are just asphalt poured over compressed dirt, so they break up much more easily than a properly engineered roadbed would, especially when they are used by trucks or today's heavy SUVs and whatnot.

I am honestly surprise you weren't horribly injured coming to an abrupt stop on an upright bicycle from 17mph.
That's one reason I don't ride an upright bike (whenever I can avoid it). I ride CrazyBike2, as linked in my signature, a semi-recumbent long cargobike. ;)

I did get slammed forward, but not off the bike; since my arms are basically straight forward from my shoulders I was able to keep from being slammed into the bars. Most of the energy was taken up by the rim and spokes being destroyed.


Chalo said:
Potholes and buckles in the street are more treacherous than rough terrain, because they arise as exceptions to an otherwise decent surface that allows to to carry some speed. Therefore you're likely to be moving too fast to react appropriately when you encounter one.
That's one reason I keep an eye out for such things, and I don't ride at the edge of the road unless I'm forced to by the traffic flow or other conditions, unless I know for sure that area is free of such things. But when I am, as you say, usually they come up too quick to react to if I don't see them far enough away. (if there was no other traffic on the road, I could easily go around them, but that's the problem; I do go around them in those situations, but often there is too much traffic to do that. If I see it far enough ahead, I can slow greatly, or i can even stop and wait for a gap in traffic to go around it if it's a big enough hole to have to do that, but usually just slowing down is enough to prevent problems.
 
"THey do actually patch holes reasonably often--but they don't do it right, they just pour more asphalt into them, without even cleaning the dirt and debris out first usually, and that means when it gets hot in the summer the asphalt sticks to car tires that go over it and it comes out in chunks, breaks up, and water/etc gets in there and takes care of emptying it right back out again. It sometimes doesn't even take the full summer season to do it back the way it was, or worse.

The sinkholes don't get fixed properly either, most of the time--they just get the same pour-it-in treatment, not filling in the hole underneath causing the problem. Or sometimes they do cut out a block of pavement and pour dirt in then cover it with a little asphalt (2-4"), but that's not enough, by far. Needs to have proper roadbed repairs done, with different sized gravel and rock, then concrete and then asphalt. But a lot of roads here are just asphalt poured over compressed dirt, so they break up much more easily than a properly engineered roadbed would, especially when they are used by trucks or today's heavy SUVs and whatnot."

Sounds like it's time for you to run for office, someone is obviously neglecting their duties.
 
I voted for full suspension.

The roads around here are always in sub-par shape due to the freezing and thawing of the ground between the winter and summer months. This leaves some nasty pot-holes, especially on my commute. I used to use a hard-tail bike with a basic suspension fork but found that after cruising around town @ 35-40 km/h, my rear wheel was always taking a beating. I actually had the wheel shift within the drop-out, which caused some pretty severe tire rub. I found myself constantly having loose rear spokes.

Last year, I moved to a full suspension bike. Much less issues with spokes and flat tires on the rear. The ride is much more comfortable, and doesn't send me flying when I hit a pothole. I understand there is potential for some energy loss because of the full suspension. (its also more difficult to do a wheelie) With an e-bike though, this isn't really an issue ( I also have a dual drive setup). I will never go back to hard-tail for an e-bike.
 
It depends on several factors. Speed, road conditions, vehicle weight and wheel quality all need to be considered. Everybody's situation is different but for mellow, 10-20MPH cruisers, suspension usually isn't a deal breaker. However, 20-30MPH weighing 65-100lbs or more ridden on generally rough roads makes a pretty good argument for full suspension.

There's also a great amount of difference between suspension component quality. Good quality air/oil/gas properly valved components shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as pogo spring Wallybike suspensions. Night and day difference in performance and the only legit argument for the cheap stuff is that it "might" be better than nothing. It also may be worse....
 
Ykick said:
Good quality air/oil/gas properly valved components shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as pogo spring Wallybike suspensions. Night and day difference in performance and the only legit argument for the cheap stuff is that it "might" be better than nothing. It also may be worse....

Worse.

Suspension on department store BSOs has only one function it performs well: It persuades ignorant people to pay more than they would if it weren't there.

Any suspension has serious drawbacks if you're trying to conserve limited pedal power, or if you want a strong and lightweight bike, or if you want good value for your money. Department store bike suspension only has drawbacks, though, and no benefits except to the retailer.
 
One thing I've learned from my A-Line build is that is is indeed possible to have too much suspension :oops:

The thing rides like a 1970's Cadillac.

I'm sure I can dial some of this out with proper adjustment of shocks and such - but for now I have higher priority finishing touches.
 
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