ebike or motorcycle?

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What separates ebikes from e-motorcycles

The law decides
4
9%
Power level and speed. Under 15mph is an ebike
0
No votes
Power level and speed. Under 20mph is an ebike
6
14%
Power level and speed. Under 25mph is an ebike
6
14%
Power level and speed. Under 30mph is an ebike
9
21%
Pedals
11
26%
Source of parts used
2
5%
I need to say something that makes my mc an ebike
1
2%
Something else
4
9%
 
Total votes: 43

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ebike or motorcycle?

Post by friendly1uk » Feb 03, 2015 7:33 pm

What separates ebikes from motorcycles for you. We have forums for each, but what are they?


In the uk we have a motorbike category that is limited to 30mph. Tax, vehicle testing, insurance, registration, helmets and licensing are all requirements in this category. Making it electric makes no difference. Should adding pedals? I'm not even entertaining the idea. Unless the poll says otherwise. Because we need to speak the same language.
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Re: ebike or motorcycle?

Post by xenodius » Feb 03, 2015 8:17 pm

I voted power level and speed, but in my opinion the most important factor is weight. There's a tremendous difference in public liability for a 30mph bicycle that might weigh 200+ pounds with a rider vs a 30mph touring moto that might weigh 1200+ with a rider. One of those is MUCH more likely to kill you. The law doesn't make a distinction based on allowable speeds for either, but they do make licensing distinctions as it is a much greater responsibility.

In my opinion most of our vehicles are light enough that if used properly they shouldn't be considered the public liability that a motorcycle might be, and therefore should not be licensed the same way. There might be some exceptions like Deathbike :P But that's really just a matter of throttle control!

A lot of people bring up road taxes. But, if you look at studies of sources of road damage, asphalt damage goes up exponentially with weight. Tractor-trailiers/semi-trucks/lorries do a couple orders of magnitude more damage than cars and several orders of magnitude more than bicyclists, though exact values are hard to estimate. That's largely why they pay huge weight-based taxes, car and even truck drivers pay small registration fees, and cyclists pay nothing. Ebikes are no different, in that regard; they shouldn't pay for the use of roadways. Initial costs are paid typically through other taxes.
Last edited by xenodius on Feb 03, 2015 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ebike or motorcycle?

Post by Eclectic » Feb 03, 2015 8:22 pm

Back on my soap box again...

I still like the idea of a new class of vehicles. Right now I'm calling it "Slow Speed Light Vehicles". What defines a SSLV is the fact that they would not be a potentially Deadly Weapon (at least statistically). No restriction on power or type of propulsion. To me it's all about things like momentum and kinetic energy. So basically speed and weight (my current thought is 20mph and 350 lbs). No restriction on the type of vehicle either (why does it have to be a bicycle?).

Anyone could use SSLV infrastructure as long as they operate their vehicle in a safe manner (20mph/350lbs). Since the vehicles are not deadly, they would need little regulation, just a very simple definition of operator behavior not the vehicle.

Edit: You got that in while I was typing :o
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Re: ebike or motorcycle?

Post by xenodius » Feb 03, 2015 8:31 pm

Eclectic wrote:Back on my soap box again...

I still like the idea of a new class of vehicles. Right now I'm calling it "Slow Speed Light Vehicles". What defines a SSLV is the fact that they would not be a potentially Deadly Weapon (at least statistically). No restriction on power or type of propulsion. To me it's all about things like momentum and kinetic energy. So basically speed and weight (my current thought is 20mph and 350 lbs). No restriction on the type of vehicle either (why does it have to be a bicycle?).

Anyone could use SSLV infrastructure as long as they operate their vehicle in a safe manner (20mph/350lbs). Since the vehicles are not deadly, they would need little regulation, just a very simple definition of operator behavior not the vehicle.
We think along the same lines, K.E. is what makes a vehicle deadly, primarily. There are differences-- for example, I saw a study that showed cyclists and motorcyclists hit by flat-faced buses are less likely to die than those hit by cars, which invariably 'whiplash' heads against hoods or pavement and kill people instead of hit them head on and knock them over after the initial collision. But K.E. is a good basis for these policies, regardless, as it is easily applied...

That said, I also believe in Solomon's curve and I think 20mph is a bit slow. I'm fortunate enough right now to have dedicated paths to work and a shower there, so I've no real need for my ebike other than convenience and laziness, and last friday when I didn't want to climb 700ft with strep-throat so bad I coughed up blood. BUT, in the last city I lived, I suffered about one vehicle collision per 1,000 miles of riding (human-powered D-frame bicycle). 2/6 of those incidents were deliberate! I've only ridden half that distance on my ebike but no accidents so far.

My ebike is "illegal" and in about 3,000 miles, the one time I got stopped by a police officer, he was just impressed. And that was because I was doing 55+ up a 10% grade on the interstate... I didn't get a ticket, and he even said "I don't think the law has caught up to you". He'd never seen a high-powered ebike before. He insinuated that he would never give me a ticket but that I should be a bit more discrete regardless. :P

Apparently Idaho doesn't have an restrictions on ebikes and their interstate speed limit just got raised to 80mph. So someday when I finish my next build (~85mph top speed without field weakening, 100+ with) I plan on doing a speed run in my home state. :mrgreen: I should have a nice safe high-speed and scenic route to my favorite brewery...

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Re: ebike or motorcycle?

Post by friendly1uk » Feb 03, 2015 9:08 pm

I'm with the sslv idea. Keep them on the roads that exist, but limit them to 40mph zones. They will get in the way on a 40 route, but banning them from 40 zones would make them useless in cities where 40 is a common arterial route speed. This way, they only need stand up to 40mph impacts.

As a pedestrian it probably makes little difference if your hit at 30mph by 200kg or 2000kg. You not stopping either. At this speed 50% of pedestrians hit die. It is the 20mph limit I like.
If your 75kg swept up by 2000kg your going to match it's speed. If 200kg sweeps you up at while coasting at 30mph, your going to hit 23mph. At 30mph no weight is a good weight.

This is getting a little complex for everyone to understand. If we start trying to classify bikes by the kinetic energy they can carry, it is a bit too complicated. Their are many dullards out there, and it needs keeping simple. We can't have a calculation involving speed and weight give us our classification. We need a clearer line.

Or don't we? UK law says 40kg and although assisted to 15mph we all know they pedal faster than that. So the electric side of the bike is insignificant as it only supplied the weight not the speed. So we have unlimited kinetic energy atm, but a 40kg limit. Why didn't I put weight as a choice between ebike or mc..... Hopefully this oversight won't need another poll.

Edit: I'm sat crunching numbers, and do find the K.E approach appealing. It is what matters, but regulating with regards to it is too complex for the government to accept. Somebody thought about it with the 40kg limit, knowing the 15mph bit would be exceeded anyway by pedal power alone. But on a 40kg bike few would get to 20mph or want as we have seen in my last poll. Perhaps that is about where my opinion sits. Around 20mph but 30kg which might actually be a similar K.E carried to the EU limit set up by allowing 40kg bikes to pedal around. Same collision damage, but do people expect to see a bike move at 20mph?

I have now started to see flashing white lights down the road and know it's a bike probably on the pavement. It's about expected behaviour. It's why I'm thinking about two lights that don't flash. More like a small mc. People on racers might be doing 20mph+ but a mountain bike is generally not going fast at all. I can tell how fast, because I'm a man. Girlie girls can't. They just follow my weak logic and guess a mountain bike ain't moving much at all. Certainly not 20mph. That is their experience, and many don't have judgement of objects in space.
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Re: ebike or motorcycle?

Post by BikeFanatic » Feb 03, 2015 9:57 pm

I like to ride 15-25 MPH, but I do think and Ebike should go bike speeds. Any faster than that then you fall in to Moped class. A Boston cop told me under 25 does not need registration. Dont know if thats true or not, I do my best to fly under the radar.
it is about expected behaviour. It's why I'm thinking about two lights that don't flash. More like a small mc. People on racers might be doing 20mph+ but a mountain bike is generally not going fast at all. I can tell how fast, because I'm a man. Girlie girls can't.
because you are a man you can make stupid comments like that.

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Re: ebike or motorcycle?

Post by gogo » Feb 03, 2015 10:51 pm

BikeFanatic wrote:
friendly1uk wrote: it is about expected behaviour. It's why I'm thinking about two lights that don't flash. More like a small mc. People on racers might be doing 20mph+ but a mountain bike is generally not going fast at all. I can tell how fast, because I'm a man. Girlie girls can't.
because you are a man you can make stupid comments like that.
Lol.

We should be planning infrastructure into the soon-to-be reality of driverless vehicles. This whole experiment of driver controlled vehicles has been a disaster.
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Re: ebike or motorcycle?

Post by Chalo » Feb 03, 2015 11:54 pm

gogo wrote:We should be planning infrastructure into the soon-to-be reality of driverless vehicles. This whole experiment of driver controlled vehicles has been a disaster.
Hear, hear!

4000+ pound, 80+ mph vehicles shouldn't be under the control of distracted, drug-addled morons any more than a train or airliner should. If you want to be a distracted drug-addled moron and still drive your own vehicle, 20 mph and 100 pounds is more than enough.
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Re: ebike or motorcycle?

Post by xenodius » Feb 04, 2015 12:47 am

Chalo wrote:
gogo wrote:We should be planning infrastructure into the soon-to-be reality of driverless vehicles. This whole experiment of driver controlled vehicles has been a disaster.
Hear, hear!

4000+ pound, 80+ mph vehicles shouldn't be under the control of distracted, drug-addled morons any more than a train or airliner should. If you want to be a distracted drug-addled moron and still drive your own vehicle, 20 mph and 100 pounds is more than enough.
Seriously. A former coworker who drove a large truck 60 miles round-trip each day got a DUI years back... blew a .19! It wasn't until I talked to them about it and illustrated the responsibility that driving is, and the damage they can cause, that they stopped complaining about the consequences. IIRC motor vehicles are the fifth biggest killer in the USA. But they're "so important" that we can't give them up. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, heart disease is #1 and ~30% of people don't stop overeating... we've only just begun to understand the neurochemical underpinnings for hunger in the last ~15 years...

Anyway, I agree with you. Wholeheartedly. The rhetoric I hate the most is the, "If you aren't in a truck/SUV/tank, you're not safe!" argument. Tragedy of the commons...

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Re: ebike or motorcycle?

Post by Chalo » Feb 04, 2015 1:08 am

xenodius wrote:Seriously. A former coworker who drove a large truck 60 miles round-trip each day got a DUI years back... blew a .19!
My friend recently bought a pocket breathalyzer to "pre-test" for his court-ordered car breathalyzer interlock. It's an educational toy-- I learned that he and my girlfriend both blow deeply illegal numbers right off the bat, while I can drink like a boss all night and not exceed .06% by the end of the night's adventure. However, either of them would be much better to drive at .06% than I am.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised, heart disease is #1 and ~30% of people don't stop overeating...
If they rode bikes for transportation, they could probably overeat to their hearts' content without the same consequences. It ain't the weight; it's the body that carries the weight. That's why obese people outlive underweight people, and overweight people outlive "normal" weight people. (Look it up.) They have more vigorous bodies under the flab-- largely because of their "weight training", I'd guess. Aerobic exercise like cycling tips the scale even more.
The rhetoric I hate the most is the, "If you aren't in a truck/SUV/tank, you're not safe!" argument. Tragedy of the commons...
It's like everybody, even liberals, are gun nuts when it comes to carrying their kids in cars. Other people's kids, or their great-great-grandchildrens' kids, don't even matter.
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Re: ebike or motorcycle?

Post by friendly1uk » Feb 04, 2015 2:57 am

BikeFanatic wrote:I like to ride 15-25 MPH, but I do think and Ebike should go bike speeds. Any faster than that then you fall in to Moped class. A Boston cop told me under 25 does not need registration. Dont know if thats true or not, I do my best to fly under the radar.
it is about expected behaviour. It's why I'm thinking about two lights that don't flash. More like a small mc. People on racers might be doing 20mph+ but a mountain bike is generally not going fast at all. I can tell how fast, because I'm a man. Girlie girls can't.
because you are a man you can make stupid comments like that.
Handle with kid gloves hay.
Ask a male paused at a junction, at what distance it is safe to pull out in front of a motorbike. He won't answer. He wont say 'when it's past that whatever over there' Or even be able to act upon that information without mental trauma.

On the other hand, tell a women it's ok to go, as long as it's not past the blue billboard, and she will happily look at the oncoming vehicle in relation to the billboard and pull out accordingly.


It is very hard to stereotype as people are so varied. Women can be just like men if enough testosterone is present during the second trimester. In times of war we breed warriors. In which case the above won't sound pro-female at all, your not at all girly and perhaps have balls big enough to point out the obvious. Yes I'm a man, and yes we can.
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Re: ebike or motorcycle?

Post by xenodius » Feb 04, 2015 9:58 pm

Chalo wrote:
xenodius wrote: If they rode bikes for transportation, they could probably overeat to their hearts' content without the same consequences. It ain't the weight; it's the body that carries the weight. That's why obese people outlive underweight people, and overweight people outlive "normal" weight people. (Look it up.) They have more vigorous bodies under the flab-- largely because of their "weight training", I'd guess. Aerobic exercise like cycling tips the scale even more.
The rhetoric I hate the most is the, "If you aren't in a truck/SUV/tank, you're not safe!" argument. Tragedy of the commons...
It's like everybody, even liberals, are gun nuts when it comes to carrying their kids in cars. Other people's kids, or their great-great-grandchildrens' kids, don't even matter.
I'm not sure about those stats regarding obesity... there is a lot of hearsay regarding longevity but one thing's for sure, obesity doesn't help the situation. The latest work indicates one of the best things you can do to live a long life is periodic fasting (adequate to induce systemic autophagy, e.g. ~<500 calories/day or <1200 calories/3days) In countless models, benefits range from 15% to ~80% greater lifespan, with guesses around 25% in humans! Of course, nobody can actually test that in humans... only NHP's and rodent models.

I agree with you there. Cars are about a thousand times more likely to kill you than a gun (barring firearm homicides and vehicular homicide).

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Re: ebike or motorcycle?

Post by friendly1uk » Feb 05, 2015 12:11 am

xenodius wrote: The latest work indicates one of the best things you can do to live a long life is periodic fasting (adequate to induce systemic autophagy, e.g. ~<500 calories/day or <1200 calories/3days) In countless models, benefits range from 15% to ~80% greater lifespan, with guesses around 25% in humans! Of course, nobody can actually test that in humans... only NHP's and rodent models.
So if I eat lots of salad I will turn gay and live longer?
I guess the examples have always been there, I just never added them up.

Medium rare with rings and fries, and something pretty from the garden to look at please. And I don't mean the gardener.




I'm quite sure obesity is one of the biggest killers. It's good though. They work less years, but draw their pensions for even fewer. They help the financial machine. If we can prove some other animal does better with some weight on (which is a few generations breeding to get the right players) We can give them some reason to hang on to their habit.

It's like the big C. It generally takes people about retirement age. The nations health is improved by us dieing around retirement age. Only private enterprise would want to change that. If the governments worked for the people not property we would spend billions on it. Extra life is priceless to some. Even if others trade it for burger and fries.

Everyone should be obese. Except me and a few select ladies. You should all educate each other, get jobs, Clock up debt and save for a pension. Then die before you retire. That would be perfect for the machine.

It's all a crock of lies. Nobody knows anything, because what one body says, another undermines. Everything looks like an open book, because the truth can't be hidden, it can only be blurred away with countless miss-truths in all the other open books. This is how they remain in control. They present a system we can't understand, and fill our heads with lots of things to think about that are worthless.

Wake up. How can being fat extend your life unless we hibernate or go through many periods of famine. Fat people are definitely not more healthy. Believing such nonsense for just a moment should tell you how far gone you are.

Our troops just came home. We have had some sort of war. Did we win? Loose? FFS my country was at war, shouldn't the basic result be known?

If you want facts, your better off making them up by looking out the window than you are listening to the media.



So... taking the lead is what I consider the obvious result. Power defines what an ebike is.
I wonder if those voting 'whatever I'm told' understood the concept of us defining what it is. I had to give them a vote though, to stop them clouding the result.
Now it is time for the other group that fudges polls. The one's who come in just after the result becomes clear, and vote for something outlandish.

Over half think power/speed with a large group of sheep taking up the rear and some minority groups trailing.
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Re: ebike or motorcycle?

Post by xenodius » Feb 05, 2015 12:39 am

I'm not talking about media. The media is paid to entertain and garner viewership. I'm talking about fellow scientists, whose life pursuits are understanding these health and social problems and who are paid to present truthful findings and be judged by fellow specialists.

Unfortunately obesity has tremendous indirect costs on the healthcare system and is one of the greatest national expenditures. That's why it is, in a large part, the focus of my current research-- more specifically, binge-eating disorder. Based on our current model, it appears that many of the processes regulating binge-eating of palatable food are similar to those which regulate alcohol and heroine, but not cocaine-- at least as far as the amygdala and mesocorticolimbic pathways are concerned. Furthermore, we have identified a pattern of rapid transient dopamine signaling in the pallidus which appears to encode for incentive-salience, that is, 'wanting', of habituated palatable diet and is strongly potentiated after abstaining from that same diet, beyond what one would expect for incubation-of-withdrawal.

Basically, all that means food really can work like a drug in the brain, people really can be addicted to it, and dieting is a great way to throw yourself into allostatic disarray... especially if you combine a sedentary lifestyle or chronically-stressful environment in the mix. That's a large fraction of America right there!

A lot of people are looking into the newly-discovered endocannabinoid system for potential therapeutic targets to combat obesity, as well.

I think a couple of us agreed power shouldn't be regulated, but speed and weight should. I think this makes sense, personally, especially with hills in mind. It takes a LOT of power to climb a hill. And what's dangerous, is weight + speed.

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Re: ebike or motorcycle?

Post by friendly1uk » Feb 05, 2015 2:11 am

By binge eating, do you mean the group who don't respond well to the full command and so should eat the low g.i diet that gets food further round the guts, prolonging the transmission of the full signal?
Who are you actually working for? The government who have to be seen to be doing something but undermine the results with a different group of scientists, or private enterprise trying to sell diet pills? An lot of scientists waste a lot of their lives on projects they don't really know the reason behind. Doing research already done, to produce results used in a manner they never expected or get to see. Thinking there paper is ground breaking when it's actually just countering another. So though it sounds interesting, why you are doing it interests me more.

It's an interesting game the gov must play. They want answers to keep to themselves, but must use the public to do the research. So they compartmentalise every aspect of the project, so everyone only see's a bit, and many bits are only there to undermine the 'face value' meaning of others. They could actually have many many answers to common problems to everyone. Problems that serve the nation like dieing at retirement age, so we can't all be cured. Imagine if we cured people of being fat. Stopped cancer and cleaned up pollution. Then started growing new organs from ours, for us. Our life expectancy would drop massively as the system fell.


I don't see bike power as the issue, although unlimited wouldn't work. We can't have cyclists on shared paths being walked by people texting if there bikes can go from stationary to 20mph in an instant. It would be a danger to all. If we said 20mph was the limit, and made bikes that could do 20mph vertically, they would need some sort of motion sensor to limit acceleration. Possible I guess. Though a power limit and the need to gear down for hills seems more likely. Rather than some sort of super bike that could exploit the maximum at all times. Though they could exist.

Like the last survey, 20mph maximum is shining through. It's good to see weight being talked about. Do we think the EU 40kg limit suitable? I think it is a bit heavy myself. Almost motorcycle weight. Sounds like another poll...
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Re: ebike or motorcycle?

Post by Eclectic » Feb 05, 2015 4:06 pm

Wow...It seems like there is 2 or 3 threads going on here.
friendly1uk wrote:We can't have cyclists on shared paths being walked by people texting if there bikes can go from stationary to 20mph in an instant. It would be a danger to all.
Pedestrians do not belong sharing infrastructure with vehicles. It is fundamentally unsafe. Pedestrians, light vehicles, heavy vehicles, mass transit all need segregated infrastructure to be safe.
friendly1uk wrote:If we said 20mph was the limit, and made bikes that could do 20mph vertically, they would need some sort of motion sensor to limit acceleration. Possible I guess. Though a power limit and the need to gear down for hills seems more likely. Rather than some sort of super bike that could exploit the maximum at all times. Though they could exist.
I guess then:

Tesla
Ferrari
Lamborghini
Bugatti
Aston Martin
Porsche
McLaren
and virtually every car manufactured which can exceed the speed limit...

should have their speeds limited or maybe just give them a speed limit to live by.
friendly1uk wrote:It's good to see weight being talked about. Do we think the EU 40kg limit suitable? I think it is a bit heavy myself. Almost motorcycle weight.
It's not about the weight of the vehicle, it's the total weight of the vehicle + passengers + cargo. It should be about the operator and how they use the vehicle and not the vehicle itself.

Edit: Quoted the wrong part but I fixed that
So you've sweat and toiled and tinkered
You know her every bolt and wire
But when it's just you and her and the wind and the silence
It feels like you are flying and you are being pushed along by the hand of the creator

Transportation…not just recreation

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Re: ebike or motorcycle?

Post by friendly1uk » Feb 05, 2015 4:37 pm

The thread is about how you separate ebikes from electric motorcycles.

Would you like to ban ebikes until they have their own roads?
One reason bikes are great is that you can ride shared paths, and over the sidewalk and park outside the shop door. You want to change that? You have made another thread.

Them cars are made for countries that have no speed limit. Why limit them? In countries that do have limits, they are enforced. If you want a bike that goes over the limit, they will make you register it and wear number plates to capture you.

We can't regulate total vehicle weight. To do so would mean enforcement. Do you want stopping for a weigh in? Should we penalise obese people, perhaps telling some they can't have an ebike because they are too fat. The best we can do is regulate the vehicles we can buy in the first place. They are only bikes. No need to make then a class of vehicle at all, other than bikes. Don't invite further regulation.

Cargo bikes could have different rules. UK regs already differ between bike types.


Edit: I'm not sure if your baiting? I suspect you are.
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Re: ebike or motorcycle?

Post by Eclectic » Feb 05, 2015 5:49 pm

friendly1uk wrote:The thread is about how you separate ebikes from electric motorcycles.
Then why all the talk about binge eating and government conspiracies? That's what I was referring to.
friendly1uk wrote:Edit: I'm not sure if your baiting? I suspect you are.
Far from it. I have tried to be very consistent with my posts on this topic. I was the one who brought up the idea of Slow Speed Light Vehicles that you seemed to like (at least parts of) earlier. I think we are actually thinking in a similar vein but with a few differences.

I don't think bicycles are magical. There are lots of other vehicles that can be operated in that same "Safe" manner as a bicycle (or operated in an unsafe manner just like bicycles can).

My goal is twofold. First is to gain acceptance from the government that there are vehicles other than bicycles that can be operated in a non-deadly manner. The second goal would be (after acceptance) to start demanding safe infrastructure for these vehicles (call them LEV or SSLV or whatever - just not bicycles only).

In my mind the difference between eBikes and eMotorcycles is speed and total weight. That opinion is not based on laws or politics but the way I see the physics involved.

I know that many of my ideas seem very strange, I'm used to that and I could be very wrong. My concern is that if we continue to try and define ourselves as some kind of bicycle that it could easily end up that a lot of very valuable technology that could end up being banned (including non-human powered bikes). If that happens, this potential Transportation Revolution (or Evolution) could be set back decades.
So you've sweat and toiled and tinkered
You know her every bolt and wire
But when it's just you and her and the wind and the silence
It feels like you are flying and you are being pushed along by the hand of the creator

Transportation…not just recreation

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Re: ebike or motorcycle?

Post by xenodius » Feb 06, 2015 12:20 am

friendly1uk wrote:An lot of scientists waste a lot of their lives on projects they don't really know the reason behind.
I'm not sure that's ever true. Science is pretty straightforward. Get an idea, write a grant, get money, do it, share results with the world. Some move into industry, sure, but everything they do is typically done to understand the question given to them.

Why am I researching this? Because understanding the systems responsible for addictive behavior has so much potential for therapeutics that will enhance quality of life for many and reduce costs on our society incurred by addictive behaviors. How am I doing it? Federal funding. If you're not familiar with the grant process, a principal-investigator writes a grant application and it's scored by scientists in or near the field they study. The top 5-8% get funded and those people get to do the research they propose. There's no conspiracies, no secret government agendas... we're all just normal people trying to lay the groundwork to understand how help people.
friendly1uk wrote: I don't see bike power as the issue, although unlimited wouldn't work. We can't have cyclists on shared paths being walked by people texting if there bikes can go from stationary to 20mph in an instant. It would be a danger to all. If we said 20mph was the limit, and made bikes that could do 20mph vertically, they would need some sort of motion sensor to limit acceleration. Possible I guess. Though a power limit and the need to gear down for hills seems more likely. Rather than some sort of super bike that could exploit the maximum at all times. Though they could exist.

Like the last survey, 20mph maximum is shining through. It's good to see weight being talked about. Do we think the EU 40kg limit suitable? I think it is a bit heavy myself. Almost motorcycle weight. Sounds like another poll...
I don't know that they need to be limited for acceleration, cars aren't and they're still more dangerous; but it wouldn't be unreasonable for a cop to ticket an ecyclist for, say, rapid acceleration in a crowded area.

I do agree unlimited isn't appropriate though. Florida or some state's limit is 5,000W, isn't it?
Eclectic wrote: My goal is twofold. First is to gain acceptance from the government that there are vehicles other than bicycles that can be operated in a non-deadly manner. The second goal would be (after acceptance) to start demanding safe infrastructure for these vehicles (call them LEV or SSLV or whatever - just not bicycles only).

In my mind the difference between eBikes and eMotorcycles is speed and total weight. That opinion is not based on laws or politics but the way I see the physics involved.

I know that many of my ideas seem very strange, I'm used to that and I could be very wrong. My concern is that if we continue to try and define ourselves as some kind of bicycle that it could easily end up that a lot of very valuable technology that could end up being banned (including non-human powered bikes). If that happens, this potential Transportation Revolution (or Evolution) could be set back decades.

Do you mean that you want car/LEV/bicycle/pedestrian infrastructure? While that sounds great, it's been hard enough getting that bicycle infrastructure built between pedestrian paths and roadways... I would expect LEV's of the criteria you gave to be given free reign on multi-use paths and bicycle lanes.

Binge eating chatter came about from correcting Chalo, who said obesity increases lifespan, which would be troubling since I'm building my career on the thesis that obesity is unhealthy and therefore a significant toll on society.

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Re: ebike or motorcycle?

Post by Eclectic » Feb 06, 2015 1:58 am

xenodius wrote:Do you mean that you want car/LEV/bicycle/pedestrian infrastructure? While that sounds great, it's been hard enough getting that bicycle infrastructure built between pedestrian paths and roadways...
Yes; the Dutch have been doing just that for a long time now and it seems to be a very practical, safe and efficient way of moving people.
xenodius wrote:I would expect LEV's of the criteria you gave to be given free reign on multi-use paths and bicycle lanes.
Multi-use paths? No. A bicycle can easily generate 100x the kinetic energy of a pedestrian. Pedestrians do not move in a structured or predictable manner. That means you have to restrict the movement of the vehicles in order to make it a safe environment. Multi-use paths are designed for recreation not transportation. We press them into use for transportation just like we use sidewalks in an emergency. Multi-use paths are not a practical, safe and efficient way of transporting any significant number of people without the pedestrians having a protected space.
Bicycle lanes are another matter. It's really just another multi-use road with all the same problems only we become the little guy. I see bike lanes as the feeder routes to the real light vehicle roads. In that situation, what is "safe" becomes a lot more relative and higher speeds may make sense but I wouldn't consider bike lanes as true light vehicle infrastructure, but as a hybrid that would have different requirements (maybe).

The infrastructure is part of the goal but the linchpin is the recognition and acceptance at the national level for the vehicles that we use today and the ones that come tomorrow. After that, it's just the dance between the people and the lawmakers that hold the purse strings

xenodius wrote:Binge eating chatter came about from correcting Chalo, who said obesity increases lifespan, which would be troubling since I'm building my career on the thesis that obesity is unhealthy and therefore a significant toll on society.
I know, it's your life right now. It was just little strange that's all.
So you've sweat and toiled and tinkered
You know her every bolt and wire
But when it's just you and her and the wind and the silence
It feels like you are flying and you are being pushed along by the hand of the creator

Transportation…not just recreation

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Re: ebike or motorcycle?

Post by Drunkskunk » Feb 07, 2015 3:29 pm

I call my beast an Ebike. It has pedals and bicycle parts and only 10,000 watts, and only beats a Camaro through an intersection by 50 feet or so. Sure, it's an "ebike". John in CR's beasts are an order of magnitude more powerful than my "ebike". They use scooter motors and motorcycle tires, and can break 100mph. But we still consider them "ebikes". A full order of magnitude more powerful than John's, is LFP's latest Deathbike. It beats dragsters through the quarter mile and uses a motor dumping more power than the peak of many commercially available electric cars. But it's still considered an "Ebike"

But if any of these showed up at Walmart being sold as "Ebikes", there would be trouble. Creations like these don't belong in the hands of the masses. While there is a clear double standard here, I think that's fine. what one person builds for them self and calls an ebike, is an ebike. But what gets built for the anonymous masses needs to conform to a set of standards based on the lowest ability of the consumer.
Buy the ticket, take the ride.
Monster Bike:https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=38667

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Re: ebike or motorcycle?

Post by Kneelb4ZOD » Aug 07, 2017 8:33 pm

If I had to choose what makes an ebike an ebike from the listed options available, I would go with pedals like it appears the majority who answered the poll have. For the simple reason that pedals are what make a bike, a bike. And an "electric bike" is at the end of the day, a bike.

But if the question is how should we separate different classes of electric personal transportation devices, I think it's very simple: Weight.

Hitting someone with a 25 pound bike is much different than hitting someone with an 800 pound motorcycle. I think there should be three classes of electric mobility device.
Light: <35 lbs,
Medium < 150 lbs,
Heavy > 150 lbs.

I don't think you should need a license for light or medium size electric vehicles. But there should be an age restriction on the medium weight class. You should not be allowed to ride medium weight EV's on highways or freeways, and must obey all traffic laws when on public roads. For heavy bikes, you should require a new class of drivers license similar to a motorcycle license.

I think that's the most fair and pro-innovation policy because it doesn't dictate what kind of device can be made. Simply that if it is powered by electric motors you require more responsibility based on weight class.
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Re: ebike or motorcycle?

Post by amberwolf » Aug 07, 2017 9:04 pm

It's not just weight, it's speed * weight.

If I were to bump into someone with SB Cruiser while fully loaded and pulling a trailer (potentially up to several hundred pounds including my 180lbs and 250lbs+ of dogs, and probably 300lbs+ of trike+trailer), but at only a couple MPH, it might surprise them or even knock them down hard. It'd be unlikely to kill them or severely injure them. (unless of course I kept going and crushed them with it).

But if I were riding a regular pedal bicycle (in my case it'd have to be downhill) at 30MPH+ (about 200lbs total, assuming 20lbs bike and 180lbs me), I could possibly kill that same person--possibly only severely injure...but the consequences of that much higher speed even at a much lower weight are more severe than the very low speed at a much higher weight.

Those are two extreme examples, but they should get the point across about weight and speed. :)

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Re: ebike or motorcycle?

Post by boytitan » Aug 08, 2017 12:19 am

Kneelb4ZOD wrote:If I had to choose what makes an ebike an ebike from the listed options available, I would go with pedals like it appears the majority who answered the poll have. For the simple reason that pedals are what make a bike, a bike. And an "electric bike" is at the end of the day, a bike.

But if the question is how should we separate different classes of electric personal transportation devices, I think it's very simple: Weight.

Hitting someone with a 25 pound bike is much different than hitting someone with an 800 pound motorcycle. I think there should be three classes of electric mobility device.
Light: <35 lbs,
Medium < 150 lbs,
Heavy > 150 lbs.

I don't think you should need a license for light or medium size electric vehicles. But there should be an age restriction on the medium weight class. You should not be allowed to ride medium weight EV's on highways or freeways, and must obey all traffic laws when on public roads. For heavy bikes, you should require a new class of drivers license similar to a motorcycle license.

I think that's the most fair and pro-innovation policy because it doesn't dictate what kind of device can be made. Simply that if it is powered by electric motors you require more responsibility based on weight class.

Motorcycle licenses are not to save pedestrians from motorcycles. Its to save motorcyclist from their own bikes and car drivers.

Most people take a MSF course before getting their license. As someone that learned everything about riding through eating dirt I wish i took a MSF class I got very lucky receiving only cosmetic injuries.

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