Is Global warming real?

Get the forum community involved in polls and surveys.

Do You Believe in Global Warming?

Yes! And We Humans are totaly to Blame!
61
44%
Yes. But it's a natural phenomon.
48
34%
Yes. I'm secretly doing it with my LiFePO4 powered heat ray.
8
6%
No. The earth's climate is stable.
11
8%
No. The earth is in a natural cooling cycle.
10
7%
No. We're actualy causing Global Cooling.
2
1%
 
Total votes : 140

Re: Is Global warming real?

Postby 317537 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:33 am

liveforphysics wrote:I post from my cell phone during the day. Its tough to put together links from multiple pages from my phone. This evening when I'm at a computer I will post up some links for you guys.




Glad you put so much into this. From your phone and all.

Prepare guys, we are about to learn the absolute truth about everything.

Sincerely thanks for you valuable time LFP.
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Re: Is Global warming real?

Postby liveforphysics » Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:05 am

They have long been thought of as the antidote to harmful greenhouse gases, sufferers of, rather than contributors to, the effects of global warming. But in a startling discovery, scientists have realised that plants are part of the problem.

According to a study published today, living plants may emit almost a third of the methane entering the Earth's atmosphere.

The result has come as a shock to climate scientists. "This is a genuinely remarkable result," said Richard Betts of the climate change monitoring organisation the Hadley Centre. "It adds an important new piece of understanding of how plants interact with the climate."

Methane is second only to carbon dioxide in contributing to the greenhouse effect. "For a given mass of methane, it is a stronger greenhouse gas, but the reason it is of less concern is that there's less of it in the atmosphere," said Dr Betts.

But the concentration of methane in the atmosphere has almost tripled in the last 150 years, mainly through human-influenced so-called biogenic sources such as the rise in rice cultivation or numbers of flatulent ruminating animals. According to previous estimates, these sources make up two-thirds of the 600m tonnes worldwide annual methane production.

Frank Keppler, of the Max Planck Institute for Nuclear Physics, who led the team behind the new research, estimated that living plants release between 60m and 240m tonnes of methane per year, based on experiments he carried out, with the largest part coming from tropical areas.

David Lowe, of the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research in New Zealand, said the new work, published in Nature, is important for two reasons. "First, because the methane emissions they document occur under normal physiological conditions, in the presence of oxygen, rather than through bacterial action in anoxic environments," he wrote in an accompanying article. "Second, because the estimated emissions are large, constituting 10-30% of the annual total of methane entering Earth's atmosphere."

Yadvinder Malhi, a specialist in the relationship between vegetation and climate at Oxford University, said the plant source of methane had probably been missed in the past because scientists have a poor understanding of the way methane circulates in the atmosphere. "There are a variety of sources and sinks of methane and there are huge error bars on those terms," he said. "What's been uncertain is where the methane is coming from and where it's going. Unlike carbon dioxide, methane is much more dynamic; it lasts about 10 years in the atmosphere."

Biogenic methane has traditionally been assumed to come from organic materials as they decompose in oxygen-free environments. But Dr Keppler found plants emit the gas even in normal, oxygen-rich surroundings: between 10 and 1,000 times more methane than dead plant material. When the plants were exposed to the sun, the rate of methane production increased. "Until now all the textbooks have said that biogenic methane can only be produced in the absence of oxygen," Dr Keppler said. "For that simple reason, nobody looked closely at this."

The discovery sheds further light on the complex relationship between greenhouse gases and the environment. "If you're after predictions of global average temperature, it won't make a huge amount of difference," said Dr Betts. "But it shows how complicated it is to exactly quantify reforesting or deforesting in comparison with current fossil fuel emissions."

It will also intensify debates on whether targets in climate change treaties such as the Kyoto Protocol should be based entirely on carbon emissions, which are easily measured, or also take sinks into account, which remove carbon from the atmosphere but are more difficult to measure.

For climate scientists, the new work clears up a few unexplained features in the environment.

"The rate of methane increase in the atmosphere has slowed down in the last 10 years and there was no really convincing explanation of why that's been going on," said Dr Mahli. "This paper argues that tropical deforestation may be a factor there."

In addition, the new research could help to explain the source of plumes of methane observed by satellites over tropical forests. "The sheer biomass of the forest may be a factor there," said Dr Mahli.

The fact that plants produce methane does not mean that planting forests is a bad idea, however. "Putting a tree where there was no tree before locks up a lot of carbon and this [new research] perhaps reduces the overall benefit of that by a fraction," said Dr Mahli.

Some mysteries remain: how and why plants produce methane is unclear. Dr Keppler's team said the search for an answer is likely open up a new area of research into plant biochemistry.

Other surprise results

Tree planting

Researchers in North Carolina found that planting trees to soak up carbon dioxide can suck water and nutrients from the ground, dry up streams and change the soil's mineral balance

Aerosols

A recent study in Nature found cutting air pollution could trigger a surge in global warming. Aerosols cool the Earth by reflecting radiation back into space. Scrapping them would have adverse consequences
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Re: Is Global warming real?

Postby 317537 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:18 am

Maybe that fresh forest air I breath at night cap national park isnt as good as the city smog that nearly made me faint every day.

Maybe forests are rotting because they are dying from the heat increase because of carbon emissions. Global warming is a symptom to a bigger thing it is not the thing. Trees are giving up the ghost. Maybe increased methane is a result from thermal induction of a gas that would normaly behave less volatile in a cooler, climate when you warm things containing methane they give out more methane than whe cooler. this is why I say its to late its triggered. Maybe I am just stupid and the the absesnce of a PHD after my name cant see pay off science reference when I read it.

Who cares about Al Gore anyway he only came into the conservation scene recently.
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Re: Is Global warming real?

Postby liveforphysics » Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:32 am

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Re: Is Global warming real?

Postby liveforphysics » Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:37 am

317537 wrote:
Who cares about Al Gore anyway he only came into the conservation scene recently.



Speaking of Al Gore, lets not forget to provide some sources for that statement :)

"Gore's home uses more than 20 times the national average

Last night, Al Gore's global-warming documentary, An Inconvenient
Truth, collected an Oscar for best documentary feature, but the
Tennessee Center for Policy Research has found that Gore deserves a
gold statue for hypocrisy.

Gore's mansion, located in the posh Belle Meade area of Nashville,
consumes more electricity every month than the average American
household uses in an entire year, according to the Nashville Electric
Service (NES).

In his documentary, the former Vice President calls on Americans to
conserve energy by reducing electricity consumption at home.

The average household in America consumes 10,656 kilowatt-hours (kWh)
per year, according to the Department of Energy. In 2006, Gore
devoured nearly 221,000 kWh-more than 20 times the national average.

Last August alone, Gore burned through 22,619 kWh-guzzling more than
twice the electricity in one month than an average American family
uses in an entire year. As a result of his energy consumption, Gore's
average monthly electric bill topped $1,359.

Since the release of An Inconvenient Truth, Gore's energy consumption
has increased from an average of 16,200 kWh per month in 2005, to
18,400 kWh per month in 2006.

Gore's extravagant energy use does not stop at his electric bill.
Natural gas bills for Gore's mansion and guest house averaged $1,080
per month last year.

"As the spokesman of choice for the global warming movement, Al Gore
has to be willing to walk to walk, not just talk the talk, when it
comes to home energy use," said Tennessee Center for Policy Research
President Drew Johnson.

In total, Gore paid nearly $30,000 in combined electricity and
natural gas bills for his Nashville estate in 2006."
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Re: Is Global warming real?

Postby liveforphysics » Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:42 am

317537 wrote:Maybe that fresh forest air I breath at night cap national park isnt as good as the city smog that nearly made me faint every day.



I also hate to breathe smog my friend. NOx's, CO, HC's, particulates, etc are all nasty to breathe. They fall into that <0.1% green house gas impact category though, so it's not exactly a factor for this thread.
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Re: Is Global warming real?

Postby 317537 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:57 am

So the air we breath must be comming from earthly electrolysis? Would be funny if it turned out that everything we learned in schools over the last 100 years or so was bull shit.

Biosphere experiments did prove that trees are our recyclers of CO2.
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Re: Is Global warming real?

Postby 317537 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:04 am

Ok lets put our concepts in a biosphere. We have plants and animals in balance. now take out all the ground shade and leave the animals alive in there.

Poor animals will die and its going to get very hot in there. This is where we are heading IMO.
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Re: Is Global warming real?

Postby liveforphysics » Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:07 am

Also, I want to make a statement here on my personal beliefs.

I drive a 70mpg Honda Insight hybrid, motorcycles, and a 35-40mpg Civic hatch racecar all gutted out in the back that I use to serve the roll of both a racecar and a pickup truck. I carpool whenever possible on trips, I moved (and moving 310gal coral reefs is a MEGA PITA) to the closest possible house for rent to my workplace to minimize my commuting impact. I disabled the heater in my house, and instead wear winter clothes while indoors. I set a timer for my showers to minimize energy use. I like dogs and cats, but I keep no mammal pets to avoid additional environmental impact. I use my cell phone (<1w power draw) as my normal use computer, and a <18w power draw netbook that gets turned on for more intensive computer work. I don't mow, I let the yard be natural (which my landlord hates, and I love). When things break, I fix them if it's possible and inside my scope of skills rather than buying new. I haven't washed a car for years. I don't even have furniture (but I do have a ton of tools). lol

etc etc etc.


I believe it makes the world a better place if everyone does what they can to minimize their personal footprint.

I am upset by people using environmental concerns as political propaganda tool, and using the power of the press and political influence to mis-guide and mis-lead people. I think if you are going to talk the talk, you should walk the walk, which makes all the political/press/media hypocrites a bunch of nature exploiting clowns in my eyes, who just exploit nature (and people) in an additional greed driven way.

My $0.02

Best Wishes,
-Luke
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Re: Is Global warming real?

Postby 317537 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:23 am

liveforphysics wrote:Also, I want to make a statement here on my personal beliefs.
I drive a 70mpg Honda Insight hybrid, motorcycles, and a 35-40mpg Civic hatch racecar all gutted out in the back that I use to serve the roll of both a racecar and a pickup truck.
etc etc etc.


My $0.02

Best Wishes,
-Luke



Ah dont get all like that. You dont have to be concerned about your footprint. I bet as soon as its practical you of all people will figure out how to do stuff polution free. Gawd I fart more than a cow on grain.

I wouldnt agree with cars being .1 though. I dont think percenatges are accurate. I think its more when and where its concentrated make the difference and what we do with our land more so. Concentrations of CO2 with nothing to absorb it for long periods has a tail of dying land behind it otherwise Co2 is a plants best friend. You should see these morton bay figs growing over the top of the one most traffic bound city streets in Sydney (Anzac PRD) The limbs extend right over the drive path for 40ft. They are huge and the Id guestimate the trunks are 25+ ft in circumferance and they suck up all the CO2 and love it.

Good land practice is never a worthless pursuit.


Trees do cause lots of problems in stormy weather and when they catch fire they put out ship loads of methane and Co2.

We just have to figure out how to do stuff better and smarter.
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Re: Is Global warming real?

Postby 317537 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:35 am

I was thinking of the topology of all this. Is there a difference between hot CO2 and cool CO2? Similar to a hot air ballon hot air rises.

If The CO2 in cities get hot, Either by the lack of ground cover or hot concrete, hot tail pipes and roofs reflecting heat back into the atmosphere,

,,

Is that CO2 concentration going to rise above cooler gases into an area where plants cant do their job and is this hot Co2 hovering over our head causing the global warming effect as its in the area of concern?
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Re: Is Global warming real?

Postby 317537 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:50 am

Polititions will be polititions and they have the same effect on what ever they touch. They are trying to echo the peoples concerns not be green hippies. They cant do the walk so when they talk the talk they do come off looking stupid and hypocritical. If they dressed in bell bottoms and handed flowers out telling everyone to hug a tree they would never get voted in.

Honestly there needs to be money thrown into getting the green tech off the ground and not just a little bit of money, Truck loads, its what many are demanding from our polititions

When someone in a suit using more KW of energy than a community hippies in the bush start asking for green trading cash the already green concious are going to say FY suit pant a tree.

I understand the confusion as its only over the last decade the well to do are becoming concerned to the facts. Their Malabu beach house is washing into the ocean.

The con artists and frauds that are trying to cash into the scheme is just wrong. The money should be going into green power tech and the research of, not on the well to do hypocrites power bills.
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Re: Is Global warming real?

Postby liveforphysics » Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:12 am

317537 wrote:I wouldnt agree with cars being .1 though.



For CO2 impact, cars are well above 0.1% of course. You had mentioned smog that you and I both don't like breathing. The CO2 isn't what bothers us a bit, it's the NOx, CO, HC's, and particulates that make you feel sick, and those are what make up a very very tiny effect towards global warming, but a significant, troubling and annoying effect on our lungs (and other life).
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Re: Is Global warming real?

Postby julesa » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:09 am

liveforphysics wrote:The people helping the most are the folks clear cutting rainforest, and digging drainage draining wetlands are doing the greatest global warming relief. The irony is folks like Al Gore with his increadible personal energy consumption and mega consumer practices are the folks shaking their fist at the people actually helping.


liveforphysics wrote:The fact that plants produce methane does not mean that planting forests is a bad idea, however. "Putting a tree where there was no tree before locks up a lot of carbon and this [new research] perhaps reduces the overall benefit of that by a fraction," said Dr Mahli.


liveforphysics wrote:I am upset by people using environmental concerns as political propaganda tool.


Are there multiple people posting from that account?

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda
Propaganda is communication aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position. As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda.
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Re: Is Global warming real?

Postby liveforphysics » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:23 am

julesa wrote:
liveforphysics wrote:The people helping the most are the folks clear cutting rainforest, and digging drainage draining wetlands are doing the greatest global warming relief. The irony is folks like Al Gore with his increadible personal energy consumption and mega consumer practices are the folks shaking their fist at the people actually helping.


liveforphysics wrote:The fact that plants produce methane does not mean that planting forests is a bad idea, however. "Putting a tree where there was no tree before locks up a lot of carbon and this [new research] perhaps reduces the overall benefit of that by a fraction," said Dr Mahli.


liveforphysics wrote:I am upset by people using environmental concerns as political propaganda tool.


Are there multiple people posting from that account?

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda
Propaganda is communication aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position. As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda.



I wasn't aware I was working to advance a political position? Do you find my posts to be driving an emotional rather than rational response to drive a political cause?
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Re: Is Global warming real?

Postby gogo » Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:24 pm

liveforphysics wrote:I don't mow

Mowing can be enviromentally friendly.
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Re: Is Global warming real?

Postby jag » Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:02 pm

Al Gore must have read this Endless Sphere thread and answers our questions:
Methane accounts for about 27 percent of the man-made warming so far, largely because of how it interacts with atmospheric aerosols.

Halocarbons have caused 8 percent of the warming.

Black carbon (sooty emissions from burning wood, dung, and diesel) 12 percent

Carbon monoxide and volatile organics, 7 percent.

Carbon dioxide, 43 percent.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/220552
http://ourchoicethebook.com/

So indeed, global warming is more complex than just CO2
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Re: Is Global warming real?

Postby RTLSHIP » Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:45 am

Scientists have only been accurately recording temperatures for maybe half a century. So the evidence of global warning
is incomplete but nonetheless persuasive.
Lets not rely on Al Gore or Rush Limbaugh to decide whether global warming is real or scam.
I say warming has got to be real at least temporary. It may be permanent.
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Re: Is Global warming real?

Postby liveforphysics » Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:25 am

jag wrote:Al Gore must have read this Endless Sphere thread and answers our questions:
Methane accounts for about 27 percent of the man-made warming so far, largely because of how it interacts with atmospheric aerosols.

Halocarbons have caused 8 percent of the warming.

Black carbon (sooty emissions from burning wood, dung, and diesel) 12 percent

Carbon monoxide and volatile organics, 7 percent.

Carbon dioxide, 43 percent.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/220552
http://ourchoicethebook.com/

So indeed, global warming is more complex than just CO2



Yep. More than CO2 for sure. Something like >95% directly linked to water vapor. It's in the remaining 5% that we look at when we talk about all the combined greenhouse gasses. Then a tiny fraction of that 5% that we look at as far as human influence, and then write all our percentage statistics and things (like the above quoted data) from that tiny fraction of the >5%.

Interesting report just released by US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration a day ago. If you get science rag, it's in there.
Here a very brief summary:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthn ... tists.html
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Re: Is Global warming real?

Postby julesa » Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:51 am

Yes, water vapor in the atmosphere is a major factor. The thing is, warmer temperatures put more water vapor into the atmosphere. That's why a relatively small input of new greenhouse gases can result in a larger overall effect. It's feedback.

http://www.appinsys.com/GlobalWarming/WaterVapor.htm
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Re: Is Global warming real?

Postby boostjuice » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:48 pm

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Re: Is Global warming real?

Postby spinningmagnets » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:39 pm

I'm having a difficult time finding data on how much CO2 and CO has been expelled (roughly) from the major volcanoes. Off the top of my head I can name Mt St Helens, Pinatubo, Krakatoa, Mt Vesuvius...and apparently they weren't even the biggest ones in history:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vo ... death_toll

If their carbon footprint has not had a major effect, it would seem to me that there would be some rough estimates floating around somewhere...
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Re: Is Global warming real?

Postby boostjuice » Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:08 am

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Re: Is Global warming real?

Postby julesa » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:53 am

spinningmagnets wrote:I'm having a difficult time finding data on how much CO2 and CO has been expelled (roughly) from the major volcanoes. Off the top of my head I can name Mt St Helens, Pinatubo, Krakatoa, Mt Vesuvius...and apparently they weren't even the biggest ones in history:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vo ... death_toll

If their carbon footprint has not had a major effect, it would seem to me that there would be some rough estimates floating around somewhere...


http://www.springerlink.com/content/631t022372116213/
Continuing interest in the effects of carbon dioxide on climate has been promoted by the exponentially increasing anthropogenic production of CO2. Volcanoes are also a major source of carbon dioxide, but their average input to the atmosphere is generally considered minor relative to anthropogenic input. This study examines eruption chronologies to determine a new estimate of the volcanic CO2 input and to test if temporal fluctuations may be resolved. Employing representative average values of 2.7 g cm−3 as density of erupted material, 0.2 wt percent CO2 in the original melt, 60 percent degassing during eruption, and an average volume of 0.1 km3 for each of the eruptions in the recently published eruption chronology of Hirschboeck (1980), a volcanic input of about 1.5 · 1011 moles CO2 yr−1 was determined for the period 1800–1969. The period 1800–1899 had a somewhat lower input than 1900–1969, which could well be related more to completeness of observational data than to a real increase in volcanic CO2. This input is well below man's current CO2 production of 4–5 · 1014 moles CO2 yr−1.
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Re: Is Global warming real?

Postby Lessss » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:02 pm

Global warming ~> NO Solar Warming ~~>YES
Will high CO2 levels make Solar Warming worse AND MAKE IT'S EFFECTS LAST MUCH MUCH LONGER THAN NATURAL~~~>HELL YES.
Our only hope to mitigate that is Greenland icecap melt will trigger a shut down of the NA ocean heat pump and trigger a northern hemisphere mini ice age.

The Earths orbit is not mechanically precise. It varies.
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