AM dual motor = bafang middrive + rear hub motor

Not much I can do on the bike but dream out designs on photoshop.

The current design is the most practical with wiring but if I could get everything to fit around the drivetrain and front wheel and mid motor it would like this. 12 cells infront of back tyre and 12 cells in front of mid drive with controller lowered too. It would mean extending lots of wires again and making lots more brackets and tougher shells because these spots are prone to both damage and dirt.

I'd get Australian Army camoflage material for the final cover to make it look like light cargo.

13799_10152905037839845_6433057001220937728_n.jpg
 
John Bozi said:
Gab said:
1000w that the AFT

Does the bafang peak at 2000w ? I thought they had 25amp controllers ? I have seen on other threads the AFT peaks at 3000w

Just speaking roughly. 50v x 25 amps = 1250w that's already twice what a drive train would normally see. I could lift that up to 58v but don't think a couple hundred watts are worth the extra wiring and charging hassle. If I get an 8s charger and some 8s then I will try it...

I reckon another 1000w or 2000w that AFT would provide would shred the drive train somewhere or my hub.

Apart from the usual legal nonsense, why not just lop off the pedals at this point? Are you still going to pedal when its dual drive?
 
Just speaking roughly. 50v x 25 amps = 1250w that's already twice what a drive train would normally see. I could lift that up to 58v but don't think a couple hundred watts are worth the extra wiring and charging hassle. If I get an 8s charger and some 8s then I will try it...

I reckon another 1000w or 2000w that AFT would provide would shred the drive train somewhere or my hub.


Apart from the usual legal nonsense, why not just lop off the pedals at this point? Are you still going to pedal when its dual drive?
Sean are you suggesting to have the AFT 3kw peak midrive and the 5kw rear hub ? well i think that could get interesting! would be an absolute rocket with 8kw on tap ! that could be one of the fastest combinations out their, the mid for the hills and acceleration and hub for top speed.
 
Sean, the pedals don't get in the way of anything, and yes legal nonsense but they offer the option to pedal this home if both motors die and why not pedal when the cadence is perfect in tune with the bafang power? Pedal till bored or when it's cooling down the hub....

Jk, there's no way this set up would handle 3kw and even if it would that would require even more battery weight.....

It weighs a ton already.
 
Thinking of buying two normal and one long 8s 5.8ah... not cheap and they could hold me ransom since there are no other products available at that this series. I just want to minimize connections... and get the magic 14s for the bafang. So will post items here related to this number.

T5800-8-25.jpg

Minimum Capacity: 5800mAh
Configuration: 8S1P / 29.6v / 8Cell
Constant Discharge: 25C
Peak Discharge (10sec): 35C
Pack Weight: 1216g
Pack Size: 162 x 49 x 80mm
Charge Plug: JST-XH
Discharge plug: 5.5mm Bullet-connector
http://hobbyking.com.au/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=14716

the above jumped in price by $20 since I have been looking at them. That's $50 more expensive than the below Long pack.

T5800-8-25L35.jpg

Code:
Configuration: 8S1P / 29.6v / 8Cell
Constant Discharge: 25C
Peak Discharge (10sec): 35C
Pack Weight: 1262g
Pack Size: 350 x 56 x 40mm
http://hobbyking.com.au/hobbyking/store/__14717__Turnigy_5800mAh_8S_25C_Long_Lipo_Pack_AU_Warehouse_.html

CellLog-8M.jpg


39177s4.jpg

Input voltage: 11~30V DC
Charge current: 0.1~40A
Discharge current: 0.1~8A
Maximum charge capacity: 1000W
Maximum discharge capacity: 40W
Current drain for balancing Li-po: 200mAh/cell
Lithium (Li-poly/LiIo/LiFe) battery cell count: 1~8 series
http://hobbyking.com.au/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=56588

18588(1).jpg


ECOB8.jpg

46368.jpg

51405.jpg


All of the above was from HK.

only need this from elsewhere or make myself.
parallel_splitter_jst-xh.png
 
First ride for 2015! yay! stopped raining for the afternoon.

30km
Average speed 18kmh (slower because I befanged a lot more) was looking more at patient range.

Used just over 5AH on the hub! because a ton of regen

regen 27% !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This was a bit of a different ride. Tried to bagang it more and got in the habit of hubbing until feeling the pedals were clean in gear and then bafanged it. Was using the whole spectrum of gears. Was kind of upset I could see I was bafanging more than hubbing and was running out of battery on the bafang side.

The hub was definately overheating faster with all the weight, but I managed to find a good balance between the two.

If I am riding with out my riding buddies I really think I could settle with the bafang because I give up so much single tracking with this big heavy set up. I say this for 80% of the ride, and then the other 10% I'd have to get off the bike and push it up some parts and the other 10% of just hooning 0-60kmh is just a rush that is hard to give up.

I wish the bafang would fit my carbon hardtail... or I might have to buy yet another bottom of the range downhill bike for it, to really enjoy the single tracks I'm blessed with around here.

Back to the ride. The main difference was that I started straight up the very steep track at the back of my house. I haven't been able to conquer the whole mountain until today. bafanged it all the way up apart from steep parts and rutty stuff where having the 5kw to give like a nitrous explosive boost on clean lines really pulled through.

It's pretty amazing getting used to the bafang pull you up the hill and then pull WOT and really feel forward propulsion on a steep mountain - lifting the front up and getting this kind forward almost over the front bar stance on the bike to compensate for it.

It is really the do it all bike now at the cost of big ass weight and the handling that comes with that. I am too scared for now to do jumps as the shocks are really at there limit and I think I have bottomed them out a touch.

I had a thought of going the other way with my batteries. 12s (or 14s)2p for the bafang and 1p 24s 60c batteries.

It would make more sense this way consdering the bafang never seemed to heat up and it is so dam efficient. And I only need the explosive bursts on run ups and climbs to conquer some of the killer steep parts. With the heat issue and giving big breaks between those bursts the less battery might be fine. Although regen is set to high now because it can handle it at 2p not sure how it would go, probably damage the batteries at 1p.

EDIT: so since two seperate batteries, I went to charge up the bafang 12s. 3.72 a cell! that was with two bars showing or 1 bar showing underload. I was worried that they had pulled really low but that is awesome.

Also forgot to mention that there is zero arcing - and this is even after over 3 weeks of having the motor/controller unplugged from batteries. Reminds me of my much loved under amped grinfineon controller. It never arced as long as I was careful not to drain the plugs some how.

The lyen gives out an almight spark everytime no matter how long unplugged (well a few seconds is ok)
 
LoL about the picture - would be nice to have a ute for the bike to drive out somewhere different. However, I can pull off a killer ride straight from my garage with the bike and be back in an hour and half and the family won't yak. :twisted: :lol:
 
10906370_10152973980654845_8078064266762784594_n.jpg


The red arrows are the main ride, although the green arrows and black arrow were the way I used to go. The black arrow shows the scenic dam route I loved until construction on the dirt road started a couple of months ago. It became terrible to ride, with half soft unpacked dirt and half hard bits, becoming really dangerous to ride as it is so unpredictable what the tyres will do all the time. The green arrows show the easier way or should I say save a bit of battery and heat way to get up the mountain in stead of going straight up the mountain to channel 10 crawling as I do now as you can see in the video.

I've added in black the word "cliff" on a few points to refer to parts which are ridiculous to try to ride, usually mean struggling to hold your feet on the ground pushing your bike up 100 metres is not fun. Shame because some sections around them are amazing. There are many steep parts like this on the orange arrow but no need to dismount going in the direction as above.

I have done the red route both directions but there is no question that the way listed above is possible without walking - pushing your bike. The other way is pretty much impossible because of the last orange arrow section. I call this climax as it just amazing downhill riding. I say downhill but there is still many short steep uphills that will overheat the motor, hence I try to keep my motor around 70 degrees c before I get to the downhill section because without a doubt I will still reach 110 even with the befang short breathers between. It looks like it's on the bitumen road but it is not. It has some points to get to the road. Another reason to do the circuit this way is if you run out of power or blow the motor toward the end there's a road to get home on if you choose. Also note "Rob's knob" titled after Rob my riding buddy sometimes who I believe will not lose his title of the only ebiker that will ever concquer what looks like 100 degree slope.

The blue loop is a great up and down a mountain with more erosion hump jumps than anywhere I have seen. So now that I know I finished my ride with a few AH to spare I will be adding this to my next circuit ride.

The Yellow arrows show a dam that I need to go explore one day. But to do that it will have to be a dedicated trip out.

There are endless amounts of firetrail, walking, single track around this area but none create a loop like this where there is no need to back track anywhere. Much of the fire trail has single track along side it so it easy to detour slightly without losing to much power.

Ah forgot to say, that I haven't made any serious videos of the "bomb it CLIMAX" downhill section, probably because it is just too dam hard to choose to stop to record.

Can't wait for Newb to get his bike done to show him what I call the centre road circuit.


Video
I was going to record more but rain is still always on off. I started to rain at the top of the mountain this morning so turned back... This mountain is from "home" on the map directly up to channel 10. It is the part my hub could never make without a break. It could also not be done with the bafang, but together they can do it.

It's not much to watch, because it is so slow, but it gives you an idea of the sound and speed of the bafang going up 6 minutes of non stop steep mountain. I deliberately don't use the hub until the last part where the bafang bogs down or the hub would have overheated. Basically the last section sees the hub raise in temperature by about 30 degrees or more pumping tons of watts into heat in the wrong gear but hey it works for now.... Notice you can barely hear the hub at all...
[youtube]QpkSdSWF7Jg[/youtube]
 
Decided to record my favorite downhill section "bomb it climax". It's right from the start of the orange arrow on the map, and you can briefly see the Centre Road sign. Was planning to record more but the gopro was running really hot. Ambient temperature was about 30 degrees celcius and I was getting thirsty... It will probably take me ages to record the whole run. I tried to include everything, even the unspectacular parts. Will try to maintain this through the whole course.
[youtube]ydtLWH-eqBc[/youtube]
Next part will start at "Rob's Knob"
 
Finally Newb reprogrammed my controller to get all voltages working again, OMG I never want to experience 10 or more arcs in a row, poor plugs as we tried various settings to get things right.

@ 65amps the hub should keep a continuous rating of 2.5kw with out overheating ever @ a top speed of just under 40kmh in 20" wheel. If bogging down to 25kmh the bafang zone kicks in and if they both bog down then I can gear down the bafnag alone down to about 8kmh before it starts bogging down to 5kmh.

with 18 less cells the whole bike both feels good again and looks much better.

However, the big question starts whether the hub is worth being on the bike at all at this power level. Without a doubt the hub will overheat for steep stuff to a stand still and not be able to pull through the tough parts. The bafang alone without dragging around the hub and in a normal size wheel would probably do equally well albeit slower.

It's a question of redundancy and goals. If I lose my rare riding buddies I am pretty sure I would pull the hub off to go back to single tracking. My greatest concern is whether bafang would handle the same kind of abuse single track rough riding requires.

The current gearing of the bafang is rather complex to theorize...

You would think it will be more efficient from zero to top speed on a flat right?
But the reality is, it is much to slow in 30t front to go through 7 sprockets or just imagine 10!
On a steep mountain it's great to have choice of what to settle on but on anything else it is much to slow.

You can use human power to pedal up to 25kmh in 7th much faster than you could ever do with bafang gear changes.
With the bafang unmodded you need to power off for each gear change and there is a ramp up of power for on and a delay for it to go off.
0-25 would take ages to go through all the gears.

On off roading as in the video I post above, you can see that many times you go from various inclines in a matter of seconds, from up and down to various lengths it show that gear changing is not suitable. The hub motor has such a big band of power delivery that you can power through so much more complex terrain. Yet, the mid drivers don't seem to get this concept.

Having said all this on another topic, I need to get back to doing regular exercise. A high powered set up does allow exercise but it feels wrong to pull 50kg in pedal power and looks dumb too.

Goals are always changing and trying to achieve goals we get side tracked with little issues along the way which seem to create other goals. I sometimes forget that I originally loved single tracking on my mountain bike with know electric components. I enjoyed the downhill so much that I would often walk for ages up steep mountains to ride down them. I wasn't in rush to get anywhere and I am not in a rush to get anywhere now.

The bafang seems to have answered the original goal of getting to the top without walking most of the time. So I really wonder whether I should just pull off everything of my bike and just run the bafang for a while.

I could go single tracking everyday before work on 12s2p bafang.... only thing stopping me is not being able to go riding with the other high powered guys which is dam fun on the rare occasion that it happens.

So many directions to take, if nobody would hassle me about spending even more money on bikes, I'd bafang this $2k bike. It's the cheapest DH I can find with big battery room... Only thing to change is the bb area and one of the cables under the downtube would need rerouting.
pc_1.jpg
 
two rides straight up the steepest parts of the mountain +

12s2p hub 20" wheel 38kmh
12s1p mid 27kmh

on flat, this is slow but it gets me everywhere.

Doing the steepest trails has now taken out of my mind at all any doubts that I had that I need as much granny as possible. I would perform even worse with the stock 42t front and stock 26" wheel.

Below 8kmh steep stuff the motor starts to bog. At that steepness it also becomes hard keep the bike balanced and steer it too. I lost my momentum a few times and had to get off the bike.

I've pushed the bafang to its limit of taking me all the way alone to the tops of these mountains - yes it was very very hot but it didnt stop. I do also believe that it needs the cool down period that the hub offeres it once the path opens becomes less steep and over 30 kmh and can be maintained.

Have been riding really rough down steep stuff with lots of skidding through rocky bumpy stuff so Magnet slid of the spoke for the speed sensor but throttle still worked without the display... I also have thread finally showing on the creepy crawler so need a new tyre...
532958_10152991181999845_4280334159888968951_n.jpg

Basically the 18 cells infront of my seat were removed and I am happy without them, but can easily throw them on to get back to 21s2p if need be at short notice. to be able to ride fast enough if high speed guys drop around for a spin or I feel like hooning.... but for now going slow is cool and the weight of the bike is closer back to what it felt like before I put the second motor on.

My gear changing is becoming more fluid every ride. And I am using the bafang solely for everything up to 27kmh and then kick in soley with the hub.

Ideas of running
14s4p 1 battery for both motors has come into my head for less votage sag (but more weight)

or actually running

14s for mid
12s for hub

to close the 27 kmh to 38 kmh gap a bit more so they could be used in unison at the high end possibly...
 
Great news is that you have configurable setup. Yeah, I've been switching between my 14s and 18s setup. I love how fast my 18s is but gets hot quickly so been riding 14s lately for longer rides.

It started getting really cold here but that's never stopped me. I've been busy with work and rebuilding my other bike I use for riding on street so haven't been riding a lot. But will start riding offroad again soon.
 
drew12345 said:
Great news is that you have configurable setup. Yeah, I've been switching between my 14s and 18s setup. I love how fast my 18s is but gets hot quickly so been riding 14s lately for longer rides.

Yep that's the best thing about these lipo bricks and controller - just keep playing around, maybe one day I will settle?
Just ordered these:
$_57.JPG

In a few weeks I'll go to 12s3p one battery two motors..

After many questions Yesterday I plugged in both motors to one 12s2p pack. It was a test to see if something would blow. I rode it around the block was careful not to regen and throttle the bafang at the same time. I am still not sure if the 70amps the lyen can pull could effect the baafang.

Obviously a 70 hub amps burst + 25 mid amps at the same time is in the vicinity of almost 100 amps and the c rating of these batteries is only 25c or 50c at 2p. Add to that I also have huge regen spikes near 40 amps which is beyond my charge rate at 2p. Along with this I have never been happy about my voltage sag (never mattered at high voltages really).

So was umming and ahring about 3p or 4p.

4p is much better because it is even = 4 packs in triangle and 4 packs elsewhere. But I didn't like the weight of the bike at all (because of the added motor).
3p is odd but for now 6 x 6s is easy the right weight.

After running it at 12s3p I can think about going up to 14s (again a huge hassle to add 2s3p (more wire than batteries!) or get those 8s batteries/charger which I still worry about being the only product available.

14s is NOT for the bafang because at 12s it is less stressed and is perfect with pedal cadence it would be more for the hub to get a higher topspeed. 38kmh on flat that's with totally worn smooth rear tyre. Sheesh when I get a new crawler on their I'm gona be slow joe....
 
Went back 12s1p mid 12s2p hub and flew around the dam from home in about 35 minutes. Hot off charge on flats the hub is 40kmh.

Before venting and 20" wheel it took over an hour because I had to take breathers to be safe a few times. It felt so far and a huge ride.

After that I had to stop once. But must admit hammered power on the bitumen and the hills.

In the map I posted on this page above I said the bottom section was ruined by development but we have had so much rain over the last few months it has actually improved to better than before! On top of that they have added a swimming area at the far side of the dam! so excited for me and my family as my daughter loves sand and water.
Anyways,
Now I don't stop and carry lots less battery (make up for it in motor weight) but am going slower on road in particular. Off road I'm only going slower in a few sections, but the weight instead of the high mounted batteries is down low so the bike feels so much better and a bit "flicky", around some corners it just does what I want so much better. I think it is a bit dumb to want to keep high speeds for on road, although I enjoy it in a scary way, but I know I am staying under the radar and less chances of killing myself. There is the chance that 12s3p or 14s3p might be better, but I know tomorrow if weather permitting I must try total 1p. 12s1p mid 24s1p hub. But because I can't program it I have to try my hardest to keep the amps down on the hub to about 30amps so I know no big 5kw take offs and it will be justfor on open roads to let the hub creep out to its top speed... then I'll scratch my head really when I have both 8kmh in the correct rpm and who knows at about 25-30 amps (limited by battery) x 90-100v = 2.5 kw the sweet spot of the motor. Lots of testing to be done. Is 50amps x 50v better than 100v x 25 amps? especially when you are running a mid drive covering 1-25 kmh?

Too many questions I wish someone could answer... otherwise I must talk aloud and learn the long & hard way.

The problem with 1p is charging sucks, the throttle is more of an issue and regen is too strong (but maybe the regen will be less if I programme the controller to less amps...
 
I would say that 20% slope with 30t front x 32t back in a 20" tyre is the steepest the bafang can do alone in 12s with no pedaling. In this video I passed the sign and kept my feet up.. 8) :lol:

Notice the sound of the bafang but not the hub... If not on a steep hill I don't use the bafang when passing people.

The start of the video is a long downhill where I really enjoy having 3 brakes.

[youtube]SPr3KFfAuxg[/youtube]
 
Awesome! Looks like you were going fast. What speed were you going? How long can you go at that speed before you need to let the motor cool down?
 
68kmh probably was on downhill but it does around 65kmh on flat and around 55kmh on 15% slope. There aren't many mountains that I can keep going up only, most will go up and down roughly and then I worry about the cops. But I can roughly say since going to 20" vented where I can ride at WOT continuously my motor pretty much will not go over 100 degrees celcius on around a 15% slope.

Having to slow around corners or off road bits where you have to slow for safety will often overheat me though... There are mountains from base to top which see my temperatures jump 30 degrees celcius. That's just the terrain with no chance of going at the correct rpm.

I had to stop for Newb's motor to cool down even though it is a vented cro - but he was running ridiculous amps.... I have never had to stop to cool down since I put on the bafang. I just slow down to 25kmh for a while letting the bafang cool down everything before I get to a large burst on the hub.

Without any idea of damage to the drive train parts, all I can say is running the bafang with the hub motor is a massive improvement to both the terrain I can do without getting off the bike and the distances I can travel. If I choose to use it more than the hub I can travel a hell of a lot further.

Even with this great set up, I still have another bike I want to build which I want to call 100%. On the top tube I want to have inclinometer. And yes it's goal is to do 100% or 45 degree angles.

I am uploading the final part of the ride and it there is a slope that we both pushed our bikes up I guess about 50 metres? I've got lots of slopes like this around the place.
 
Really loves those trails. Makes me want to move there. How often do you encounter people on trails?

That's amazing you can go that speed for that long. Seems like the 20 inch setup really working well.
 
Drew we usually ride on weekdays, on weekends there are occasional people, but most we encounter in the 5km from the main areas once you get out as we do like 15 km there aren't many people at all - just too far to get to on a bike or walk.

Played around with two cameras. But mainly tried to get the footage of my camera which played up the first half of the ride and for the fun rough stuff was bouncing all around on my chest.

The last half of the video on the open road is by my favorite with a front view on open ground without much shaking. It is far from the most spectacular parts of the ride.

Bit of music yay.
[youtube]yfFVorDlBGM[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzqojlpNeKR3t_VglNJXlBRmy_6rz9GuX
 
My creepy crawler mod trials lasted 6 months before white thread started showing and a couple of holes appeared which didn't look caused by riding. I am half tempted to cut the old tyre in half to have a look at a cross section but the other side of me wants to keep it as is in case in finds it place on some old beat up project.

Under close inspection compared to the hookworms, the sidewalls of the hook worms seem almost the same as the main riding centre, where as the side walls of the creepy crawler seem half as thick. This coupled with the maximum weight 145kg, explains why when I ran the bike full battery and motor the rear tyre felt like it was twisting at its limits. My weight and the bike would be only 10kg under that...

Price has gone up by $10 from my LBS who had to order it in. He said they rare as hen's teeth... not good for me. Paid $40 which is cheaper than I can find online. I did research other options but nothing else is cheaper or better for now.

It also has a new big white logo on it. Preferred the old one. I said that I would true my wheel at Newb's when I changed tyres but it's a pain to get out there in time for next week's ride...

[youtube]DtUyhM--3Xk[/youtube]

Other issues I have noticed is my granny sprocket wobbles left right when spinning.... Not sure why or how or when that happened... I hope not from the bafang power.
 
Toying with some messy ideas of 15s3p because I already have two 3s packs. It would be the cheapest way to increase my voltage to just buy one more 3s for my two motor connected to one battery idea. Buying 8s packs is a big investment. Buying 3 x 2s packs is pretty big too and sounds kind of lame. An extra 3s pack could also be used to go to 21s3p if needed in future.

However there will be messy voltages to monitor.

15s x 4.2 = 63v 63v is from my understanding the rating on the caps in the bafang controller. However 61.5 is the HVC at which the controller can work offering a nice buffer for spikes.

61.5 / 15s = 4.1v Most lipo users know how quickly that top charge is lost, so not sure how it would go to run the hub motor alone for the first part of a ride without the bafang connected, to blast off the top charge down to about 60v and then when up the mountain when I really need the bafang connect it. This way I will get higher topspeeds to enjoy at the start and then have a cool down phase with the bafang and then can run both of them together. Another option would be to just charge to 4.1v a cell and make my batteries last longer. At 3p I would make up for the lost capacity anyway.

Issues:

Being forgetful and connecting the bafang early.
Regen spiking up over 61.5 or worse near cap rated voltage. At 2p I have noticed around about 2v momentary increase (similar 2v of sag) however at 3p I imagine this will be much less.
extra few hundred watts through the drive train.

If I blew the controller it would not be the end of the world. The place I bought the bafang kit sells shipped from Australia for $85.
s381921650934999542_p7_i1_w225.jpeg

http://www.emax-ebikes.com.au/store/p7/Bafang_BBS01%2F02_Replacement_Controller.html It doesn't look super hard to replace either...

disadvantages

lugging around the bafang for 10% of the ride without any gain.

Advantages

higher top speeds and torque at start and finish of the battery cycle
more capacity in the form voltage, less drain of amps

14s would have none of this messing around but would cost me and 3p gets so messy when I fit a perfect 4x6s in the triangle now. removing 1 of them is really counter all the hardwork done.
 
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