Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stuff

Edit - this post has been renamed, from ???????? Vs x5403 - Fight, and CroMotor vs before that, because it evolved to be just about an x5403 build, and we covered a bunch of ground on why front battery packs improve handling.
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I have been planning a matched pair of builds to compare the new heavyweight hub motors, the CroMotor and the xLyte 54xx. Here are the 2009 Norco A-line frames I'll be using, a green standard model, and the red 'Park' edition. The red one is a nice burgendy as seen in these dim photos, but in the seller's bright ebay pictures it appears a candy red. The green pretty much lives up to the pictures.

I'll be using RockShox Boxxers on both mounts, I still need one more. I want the bike's to have superiour handling and balance, so once again I will be hard-mounting the battery case to the front forks, as I have with my past 5 or 6 builds.

Since I discovered and pointed out that the actual KV of the CroMotor is 37% off of what Greyborg reported, I am in a bit of a tizzy trying to match the builds up again. When Greyborg announced that the motor had a KV of 9.5 (instead of the expect 13kv-14kv that would have matched the Italian's 140kph), I increased the rim diameter to keep the motors equivalent to keep the motors on the same playing field Now that we know the KV is 12.98, that rim is way too big. Too bad, I don't need 100mph so all that high-end is wasted, I would gladly trade it for low-end grunt and efficiency. So I do I build the xlyte so that it matches the CroMotor for the comparison, or do I build it the RIGHT way?

-JD

oatnet said:

I increased the rim diameter to keep the motors equivalent to keep the motors on the same playing field

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That's not how it works my friend. Anytime you increase wheel diameter, you simply decrease the power the motor is capable of outputting. If you find yourself in a situation with a motor that has too low of a kv, you simply increase the voltage to reach the RPM you require. That lighter stator with less coreloss and a much better magnetic design is going to love spinning at higher RPMs than the 54xx is going to want to see.

Smaller wheels mate! Smaller wheels!

liveforphysics said:

That's not how it works my friend. Anytime you increase wheel diameter, you simply decrease the power the motor is capable of outputting. If you find yourself in a situation with a motor that has too low of a kv, you simply increase the voltage to reach the RPM you require.

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I am on the same page Luke, but I don't have any headroom on voltage - each bike is getting a 144v Kelly controller. I am a big believer in getting power into a motor with volts instead of amps, to decrease resisitive losses and thermal load, so I started with as many volts as I could put in. That only left me the rim to tune with.

On paper, it is a 110mph build right now, if it can overcome drag, and much faster than I will take it. That speed is more your territory, glad to have you get it to that point, but I don't see you seeking out hubbie rides. :lol: :lol: :lol:

liveforphysics said:

That lighter stator with less coreloss and a much better magnetic design is going to love spinning at higher RPMs than the 54xx is going to want to see.

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I didn't have the vocabulary to describe the causality, but from my seat-of-the-pants experience that is sort of what I expected this would prove out. I'd hoped to configure the motors with similar top end, so we could compare acceleration, efficiency, etc. So its a direction change for the project, I need to figure out where I want it to go now.

-JD

Humm... Smaller wheel would be better for a head to head comparison (Another wheel rebuild?) hehe.
I ll be running my commuter with a 24" bicycle wheel and 18s lipo with around 100 amps.
But my second Hal´s motor ll be used for "racing" in a 14-16" moto rim and 24s lipo and alot of amps.

Im betting in Cromotor.

Hmm.. i see what you were going for here.
I am one of those folks that is holding out to see if the real life performance is really that much greater than the crystalyte 5xxx.

smaller wheels and high voltage = win in my book.. but it's a tradeoff in handling /pedal cadence if you care about those factors..

144v.. geezus.. 20" wheels man... 20's !!!

What are the benchmarks? Are we having an acceleration shootout? Top Speed without melting? What?

itchynackers said:

What are the benchmarks? Are we having an acceleration shootout? Top Speed without melting? What?

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I wet my 'Depends' above 50mph on a bicycle, so I'll leave the Top Speed without melting to young bucks like Luke and Doc. I was looking more to compare acceleration at different speeds, efficiency (although I expect similar results), some handling at those speeds - just to compare and contrast on the butt-dyno.

-JD

oatnet said:

itchynackers said:

What are the benchmarks? Are we having an acceleration shootout? Top Speed without melting? What?

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I wet my 'Depends' above 50mph on a bicycle, so I'll leave the Top Speed without melting to young bucks like Luke and Doc. I was looking more to compare acceleration at different speeds, efficiency (although I expect similar results), some handling at those speeds - just to compare and contrast on the butt-dyno.

-JD

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50MPH isn't bad at all on the right bike, just design it for the speed you want to go. I had my friend who had never been on an ebike before in his life doing 50mph on my mini monster within the first 5 mins of him taking his first spin and his only previous experience was a tiny bit of riding dirt motor cycles. I just dialed it back so it wasn't as violent at low speed like I like and he loved it and said it felt fine. He's also a bigger wuss than I am.

Oh yea, 20's rule!

You are right, the A-Line Park was a pimped vesion, the frame is the same. The Team DH is almost the same, with a slacker steer angle.

I will build the same 2 motors, but 2 different bikes. The Cro-motor will ride the mountain on a Santa Cruz V-10, while the X 54 will be on a Lapierre DH that I will mod and build for the street, because 30 pound of hub is too much to properly tune the best DH suspension to ride the mountain.

I expect the Cro-motor to have much better performance, and the X 54 to be able to shed heat better. That also influence my choice, for my mountain lap requires more raw power, and is never longer than 15Km quickly done. I make more heat on the road, with longer course and alot of stop and go. I expect both bikes to be very good for their specific task.

Are those modular(removable) drop outs in the Norco Frame ?
Are you planning on making a custom machined steel torque arm droppout to be compatable and simply bolted into the frame replacing the stock ones?

It will be very intresting to see where you put the batts in that teardrop shaped frame triangle.
Thanks for the comparison. My bet is Cromotor wins in all catagories.
Looks like another great build happening here.

Just curious:-- why use the Norco's ..when all those TF750's are stacked around there ?? :lol:

hillhater said:

Just curious:-- why use the Norco's ..when all those TF750's are stacked around there ??

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Good Eyes!

I try to buy and test every new ebike product I can get my hands on, and the TF frames have been convenient test mules, so in the past 5 years I have built sooooooo many ebikes on TF frames - I need something different.

Oh, and at 144v these have a no-load of 128mph, using the conventional 80% formula that yields 102mph road speed with a heavy rear hub motor - anyone brave enough to test those limits (not me, volunteers?) will want suspension to keep the rims from tearing apart at the first pothole.

Microbatman said:

Are those modular(removable) drop outs in the Norco Frame ?
Are you planning on making a custom machined steel torque arm droppout to be compatable and simply bolted into the frame replacing the stock ones?

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You are correct, I am trying to replicate the removable dropouts in steel, and bolt them right in. Snowchyld has done his own set, very impressive. I was specifically looking for frames with removable/adjustable dropouts; the A-Line seemed the strongest of the bunch, and it was the only one I found with 3 bolts.

Microbatman said:

It will be very intresting to see where you put the batts in that teardrop shaped frame triangle.

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Once I experienced the superior handling of a front-mounted battery pack, I knew I would never go back to a triangle or rear-mounted pack, there is no comparison. I've done 5 builds with a front pack since, even Mrs. Oatnet's bike has a front pack now. Here is a pic of my favorite example:

-JD

At 100mph, I doubt you'd even feel a pothole. No time for the suspension to drop into it.

Looking forward to seeing how these builds shape up. Love your work oatnet. 8)

The bike pictured a couple of posts ago is already one of my favorite hub motor powered bikes on the forum. Keep up the good work.

Kepler said:

Looking forward to seeing how these builds shape up. Love your work oatnet. 8)

The bike pictured a couple of posts ago is already one of my favorite hub motor powered bikes on the forum. Keep up the good work.

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Wow Kepler, thanks for the kind words! I love your work too, I have been watching the series of impressive developments you have been making with your line of friction drives. Stealth is important to me, and your latest stealth drive is so invisible, I had to do a 'where's waldo' on your picture to find it. I remember someone else posted they though also thought it was the 'before' picture. :lol:

-JD

I got a few PMs asking about the battery box, so I thought I'd post details here. I've used two models of box so far, the Pelican 1300nf, and the Pelican/Hardigg im2075 storm case, both @$35 on ebay. Pelicans make great battery boxes because the are super-light, super-durable, and easy to dremel and drill.

I use 'weight clamps' or 'accessory clamps' to mount the Pelican boxes to the stanchions of RockShox Boxxer forks. Boxxer stanchions were 32mm/1.25" until 2010, when they went up to 35mm. The clamps are designed to mount lead weights on tube-frame race cars. They have holes for the .25" mounting bolt. The vendor for these particular clamps is Wehr's Machine Racing, here is the auction where you can buy them:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200344689577

The entire assembly weighs only 4lbs, mounts securely, and offers the protection that soft-sided prisimatic cells need. The 1300nf will hold (20) a123 16ah Prisimatic cells (1kw), and the im2075 will hold (260 a123 Prisimatic 20ah cells (1.5kw). Since LiPo is 50% volume of the Life, you could fit twice as much capacity into the box; since it still weighs 85% of the LiFe, you would probably want to add more clamps for the extra weight.

Here is the post in the build thread that has lots of pictures. Note the (2) dead-simple but stealthy power switches, one has a resistor around it to pre-charge the controller:

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=24329&start=30#p470443

I did earlier builds with ammo boxes too, which are much heavier and more difficult to machine. I've also use larger clamps with .50" bolt holes, but they were much heavier so I would avoid them too.

With the weight over the front wheel, it always stays planted. When I turn my handlebars with one of these boxes, the battery mass is directly connected to them so steering input is instant. When I turn handlebars on a rear or triangle-mounted pack, that steering input has to translate through the frame to the battery mass, flexing and slowing responses. I first discovered this on my xtracycle, which has a 5304 and 30lbs of LiFe on the back, so steering inputs are more of a suggestion than an imperitive.

Suprisingly, it is pretty easy to lift the front end on jumps.

-JD

Oatnut: do you experience any downsides to have the battery up front there? I know it will make it feel odd if you ever want to rock the bike while standing to pedal hard, but that can be stopped if you teach yourself to not rock the bike - like a track sprinter.

4 pounds just to get the battery up there?
That's kinda bad dude... I see the advantage of the front shock buffering the abuse on the batteries though so that's good..

I do like my mid-mount.. falconEV bag = less than 1lb..

I really need to try a front battery mount setup. Makes sense to balance the bike weight with that battery position when using a hub motor. Biggest issue in my opinion is keeping the bike looking reasonably elegant. The Pelican case setup does the best job in keeping the build tidy I have seen so far.

Kepler said:

I really need to try a front battery mount setup. Makes sense to balance the bike weight with that battery position when using a hub motor. Biggest issue in my opinion is keeping the bike looking reasonably elegant. The Pelican case setup does the best job in keeping the build tidy I have seen so far.

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So am guessing my early experimental models would NOT be on your xmas list? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Here are a few pics to show you what you are "missing." :lol:

The initial "I'm just a beach blanket" model (below) opened my eyes to the potential, but the slop from the soft-mount added its own steering inputs.



The "ammo can" model (below) was bulletproof, but heavy. People loved or hated the industrial look, no middle ground. I'm planning to re-mount this on my x5tracycle - it's front wheel needs as much weight as possible to offset the heavy x5304 at the end of the long whip made up of the xtracycle and frame.

Slap a fairing on the front of the battery box. Say it's to keep the battery dry in the rain :wink:

veloman said:

Slap a fairing on the front of the battery box. Say it's to keep the battery dry in the rain :wink:

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I bought one of those zzipper mountain bike fairings a few years back, but didn't use it on the intended build, so I have in fact been considering using it on an A-Line build. Not sure it was built for these speeds though, and I have to see how unstealthy these builds turn out to be.

On another topic -

Jon Rob Holmes is a saint, guiding my dumb a$$ through the complexties of putting moped rims/tires on an ebike, PM'ing me to tell me he was OK with changing my rim size after the Cromotor went from 9.5kv to 13kv, and steering me away from impossible and dangerous configurations. I am so glad I have his expertise to guide me, I think if I had gone to a LBS they would have built exactly what I specified, which as it turns out is not what I wanted. Thanks JRH!

-JD

thanks JON ROB HOLMES from me too , because i was the one to complicate oatnet situation
T H A N K S F O R B E I N G A N I C E G U Y

+1 for John Holmes he is really nice guy, always willing to help.