Dahon Matrix with Cyclone 500w

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Dahon Matrix with Cyclone 500w

Postby hopbot » Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:29 am

hey there guys,
so i am really new to this, like only a few hours! but been lurking around the V forum for about a year (and this one for a few weeks, its great!) and just been waiting weeks and weeks to get my Cyclone kit and matrix.

some background: i live in San Fran and about a year ago i stumbled on the V forum and got totally sucked in. i asked around (before the viruses hit!) and was advised that a bottom bracket kit is the way to go to get up some of these crazy SF hills (one of which i live on).

anyway, it took a year for me to finally get the time, money, and off my butt to go out and buy a bike and order the kit from Cyclone TW.

the start was not good, i got a trek 4300 for a good deal at a LBS and i loved it. then the Cyclone kit arrived and i found out the hard way that 1. bottom bracket cartridges on the trek are impossible for a normal human to get off, and 2. it wouldn't matter anyway because the trek bottom is 73mm and the Cyclone spindle that you get is for 68mm bikes only. ugh!

anyway, i ended up ordering a Dahon Matrix. i waited and waited, it got lost in the mail for a few days, but finally (much to my surprise) arrived today.

so, at around 10pmish i started the process and its about 1AM and i've finished. i will go for a ride tomorrow and let you all know if it actually works!

thanks for all the inspiration guys!
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Postby Ypedal » Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:29 am

Hey !! welcome to the forum !!

That's a nice bike !.. ( disk brakes in SF will come in handy ! )

You missed out on the 1am " I'm done and ready to ride " ride ! those are priceless !! ( and sometimes dangerous ) ..
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Postby Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh » Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:33 am

Thanx for posting the pix, that's actually quite stealthy. Moreso than I would have imagined a mid-drive to be.

Since I have a rear hub already I'm looking for something different & a bit lighter in my next ebike. How much does it weigh, batts incl. as well as what chemistry & how many Ah? This is an inspiration for me as well & rather timely.

I have a similar style frame with an oversize toptube (no uptube tho) & recessed downtube, so I'm familiar with the appeal for that type. The combination of electric drive with a somewhat unique looking bike gets numerous complements & questions as I'm sure you will too, so I hope you're prepared for that. 8)
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Postby hopbot » Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:27 am

hey there guys...

@Ypedal: ha ha! yeah, i was very, VERY close to taking it out for a spin right then and there. but yeah, 1am in my neighborhood... not the best place to be riding around on a shiny new toy ;)

@Toorbough: while i don't have a scale, the bike itself weighs in at about 42 pounds (from the shipping box) and the batteries and motor i'm guessing another nearly 20 pounds. it feels pretty hefty.

i have the 24V 12Ah LiFePO4 battery from Cyclone. I know originally i had expected a 24V 24Ah Li Ion battery (that's what Cyclone USA sells) but the Taiwan site doesn't have those. I am guessing (i'm still learning all this) that means i will get a longer ride with less power.

I really love the look of the bike. I wish Cyclone would give you a choice between the standard aluminum finish cranks and chainring and maybe a nice flat black set. i'm a graphic designer so the "look" is important ;)

I have a CycleAnalyst ready to be installed next and some Anderson plugs. Need to dig up the old soldering gun and find some time to do that, maybe this weekend.

Going to wait until the Mrs. and 2yo are up so they can watch me ride around a bit. hope they're up soon!
Last edited by hopbot on Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby fechter » Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:30 am

Nice looking bike!

Welcome to the forum. If you have time, come to the Stanford EV rally on Aug 25th. A bunch of us will be there (including me, I hope). We usually get a bunch of bikes together and (ride like crazy people around) the the Stanford campus :twisted:
Last edited by fechter on Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby xyster » Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:37 am

[also edited for no important reason whatsoever.... :wink: ]
Last edited by xyster on Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:14 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby fechter » Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:03 am

Good point. Don't want to use the "T" word.
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Postby Ypedal » Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:20 am

Uhhh.. That battery bag contains an LiFe pack?????

That would make for a very highly interesting picture on here !!!! please! :P
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Postby hopbot » Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:29 pm

OK guys, just took it for a test ride... WOW! i couldn't make it to 8th gear, it was too fast for me in the parking lot i was using. man, it took me by surprise really.

one problem i had: on the way back home, i have a pretty serious hill. not sure if i should've attempted it without breaking in (not sure if i need breaking in) but i ended up pedaling in first gear (i usually push a non e-bike up) and the chain slipped off. seems the alignment is a little off for that lowest gear. will see if i can adjust it so it works for the highest and lowest gears. it may not.

@Ypedal: i haven't taken the pack out since i mounted it, but attached is what it looks like (this is from the cyclone tw site)
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Re: Dahon Matrix with Cyclone 500w

Postby safe » Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:59 pm

hopbot wrote:so, at around 10pmish i started the process and its about 1AM and i've finished!


:arrow: Wow!

I sometimes have to remind myself the difference between prebuilt components and custom built things. Last year I spent August investigating and designing my bike, then September, October and November building it and getting the first test rides in. Then winter came and I couldn't ride. Then spring came and I spent weeks modifying things and eventually got a bike that's become pretty solid. (rode it today and it's up to over 2,100 miles so far) Then I started on my next project this July and have been working on it a few hours almost every day since then and still have months to go before being finished. While it's true that I'm experimenting with all kinds of new ideas (like fiberglass and a custom frame) with these projects it does make me pause and think what it would be like to just have it "magically" appear before me in a span of a few hours.

Your choices are very good on this bike... it should be a good ride... and I'm reminded how easily you can do this stuff when you just buy all the parts.

P.S: I'm a huge fan of having the motor interact with the gears. The hub motor option is easiest to implement, but the extra range of gearing that the Cyclone gives allows you to climb really steep hills that otherwise would make a hub motor overheat. For San Francisco the geared approach is the wiser option.
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Postby xyster » Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:32 pm

P.S: I'm a huge fan of having the motor interact with the gears. The hub motor option is easiest to implement, but the extra range of gearing that the Cyclone gives allows you to climb really steep hills that otherwise would make a hub motor overheat. For San Francisco the geared approach is the wiser option.


The cyclone systems can't handle but a quarter the power of an X5 hubmotor without breaking the chain or mangling other parts of the drivetrain. The X5 barely gets warm up the steepest SF hills -- Devin and another member here use the 5304 and 5305 in SF:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... +francisco
Image
Due to the much higher power capability, and better efficiency at hill-climbing power levels, a 5304 or 5305 hubmotor is often the better choice; and won't overheat.
Ebike: 5304/20", 72V 35A controller, 33AH 80V 20s15p (18650 sized cells) DIY lithium-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 47&start=0
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http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=148
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http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1010
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Postby fechter » Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:44 pm

Yes, but you need 1500+ watts to go up a hill. With a Cyclone, you might be able to climb the same hill with 350w (slower).

Lance Armstrong is rated at about 600w. I don't see his chain breaking all the time.

I think both systems have their advantages. The motor + battery on the Cyclone probably weighs less than a X5 motor alone.
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Postby safe » Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:44 pm

(to hopbot) Xyster and I represent the two competing "camps" on this messageboard. He's into his "big iron" hub motor with it's extreme overvolting and massive horsepower. I'm into the smaller motors that are more in line with the legal power limits, but extended with gearing.

No one cares right now what you ride (as far as the law) as long as you don't get into anyone's way. It will be interesting to see what the future brings... (which side will come to dominate)
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Postby Lowell » Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:49 pm

The chain slipped off the front chain ring? You should be able to install a guard to prevent that.
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Postby hopbot » Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:25 pm

@safe: thanks for the compliments! but if i only had your skills i would break out the welder and do it right! (i would also need a shop of course and kick ass tools :) being slightly clueless and impatient does result in quicker satisfaction sometimes ;) i agree it will be interesting to see what starts to happen with the law. i haven't come into contact with many ebikes around here (mission area of sf) but i have seen a few ego scooters, hopefully more people start noticing and jumping on this clean alternative to getting around the city.

@xyster: i've been admiring your crazy machines ;) my wife took a ride on the bike today after i took the maiden voyage and she got that gleam in her eye, that "now when are you making me one!" gleam. i think i might try a hub motor for her, just because i'm curious. i'll have to look into relative costs, etc.

@Lowell: hey there, thanks for the tip. excuse the ignorance, but would this be a guard that goes on the chainring? i have an outer plastic chainring guard (that came with the cyclone kit) but the chain i slipping off on the inside of the chainring so it ends up between the chainring and the bottom bracket shell.

i reviewed my steps and i think i may have added too many links to the chain, i'll fix that first...
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Postby hopbot » Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:39 pm

@xyster: wow, been checking out that thread of d's videos. haven't seen him on the road yet ;) but riding down market street!?!?!? man, i would slip in that street car track and eat it! pedaling! ;)
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Postby Tom » Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:58 pm

Nice! Just wondering how much noise the motor makes on the flats and climbing hills?
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Postby hopbot » Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:16 am

hey there tom, it makes a nice little hum, sounds sort of like a golf cart to me ;)
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Postby xyster » Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:00 pm

safe wrote:(to hopbot) Xyster and I represent the two competing "camps" on this messageboard. He's into his "big iron" hub motor with it's extreme overvolting and massive horsepower. I'm into the smaller motors that are more in line with the legal power limits, but extended with gearing.

No one cares right now what you ride (as far as the law) as long as you don't get into anyone's way. It will be interesting to see what the future brings... (which side will come to dominate)


That's about the size of it. I like all type bikes, and recognize the various strong and weak points of each. I'd like to build a small folder with a chain driven motor like that sometime. I'm interested in seeing more of it, and reading more performance specs.

Safe knows his stuff well enough I don't need to be making his arguments for him. So the back-and-forth on the whole is still presented in a balanced manner, even when we each take opposite corners and look as if, if we were in the same room, we might punch each other. Then, one of the other people like Fechter jumps in and reminds us "it's all good, both types have their place" :) Things cools down until the next time the hubmotor versus chain-drive debate comes up, and then we go another couple rounds. :D
Ebike: 5304/20", 72V 35A controller, 33AH 80V 20s15p (18650 sized cells) DIY lithium-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 47&start=0
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http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=148
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http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1010
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Postby Tom » Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:52 pm

hopbot wrote:hey there tom, it makes a nice little hum, sounds sort of like a golf cart to me ;)

The reason I'm asking is jondoh said the cyclone is not much noisier than a hub motor. But a few posts later in the video it sounds *really* loud when he revs it up. Do you find it that loud in reality?
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Postby The7 » Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:07 pm

Wondering what is reduction ratio for the Cyclone motor?
It seems that the reduction ratio is 15 or more.
If it is 20 and the drive wheel spins at 300 rpm, the motor will spin at 6000rpm which may give a much louder noise than an direct drive motor at 300rpm.
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Postby Miles » Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:04 pm

The reduction ratio is just under 10:1, I think.

Most of the noise will be coming from the gears....
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Postby hopbot » Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:59 pm

hey there guys...

@The7: the <a href="http://www.cyclone-usa.com/store.php?crn=200" target="_blank">cyclone usa website</a> states the gearbox ont he 500w motor is 9.55:1

@Tom: havent yet heard a hub motor in person :) hopefully one day soon i will, then i'll probably be jealous ;)
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Postby hopbot » Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:31 am

hey there all, took the matrix to golden gate park today. i pedaled for a lot of it since my wife and 2 year old were on a rental bike (wanted to be polite :wink: ). on the way back, she took the bike (it was a slight uphill climb) and she loved it! couldn't stop talking about how fun it was. sounds like another ebike is in the making ;)

with the roads closed in the park on the weekend, i took the opportunity to test out top speed. while not much for the rocket owners in this forum, i hit 28mph and was having a blast! amazing what 8mph difference feels like.

had some chain issues so i had to call it a day. folded her up and headed back home. i bought 2 idler wheels and am going to try what jim at cyclone usa has done to his: a makeshift chain guide so the chain doesn't wobble off at high RPMs. i've attached a pic of the idler wheel and the motor area of jim's bike.
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Jim's motor setup
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Postby The7 » Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:06 am

hopbot wrote:hey there guys...

@The7: the <a href="http://www.cyclone-usa.com/store.php?crn=200" target="_blank">cyclone usa website</a> states the gearbox ont he 500w motor is 9.55:1


Thanks for the update.

The webside said:
500 Watt Motor with 9.55:1 Planetary Gearbox and Internal Controller
Size: Length: 6.5"L x 3.50"H x 3.50"W
Weight: 7.15 lbs (3.24 Kgr)
Gearbox: Integral, Planetary - 9.55:1 Ratio
Rotation: CCW
Sprocket: 14 Tooth Freewheeling
Motor Controller: Internal, PWM 40Amp Max.
Peak Current: 39Amps
Continuous Current: 24Amps
Maximum Motor RPM: 2800

How many speeds are there in your wheel sprocket?
Is it an 7 speeds with 11T to 28T?

If wheel sprocket is at 11 T,
At max motor rpm of 2800 rpm
Max rpm at gear out = 2800/9.55 = 293 rpm
Max rpm at drive wheel = 293 X14/11 = 373 rpm
Max speed for 26" wheel = 2.07 X 373 X 60/1000 = 46 km/h (28.7 mph)

If wheel sprocket is at 28T
Then max speed = 18 km/h (11 mph)

Your top speed of 28mph matches the above calculation. :wink:
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