Commuter UK styleeee...yes its a cyclone

[Dingo2024]

Hi guys after about 5 months of research (mainly on here) and lots of stress, I think it is about time I started to put this build up on ES. Although it is not finished (or even close) most of the parts are either here or been ordered and on their way.
Here is an image of the model of bike I decided to start with.....although this is not mine, I went with just the frame and fork for a custom build. Its a Carrera Subway 8 and sold by Halfords here in the UK.

Ian

[Dingo2024]

Ok so here was my brief for the build;

I live in North Yorkshire which is very rural and not very flat, everyone has cars as the buses only run a limited service. I have several places of work with the closest being 8 miles one way and next closest 16 miles away, my parents are about 25 miles away and would like a bike (battery) with enough range to cover these trips regularly. Reliability is a high priority and speed as high as possible (keeping within the limitations of the law in the UK of course)
Also need to be able to climb pretty steep hills...some of which are quite long! This will be used purely on the road and cycle ways i.e. no off road.

The other thing was that I set a budget for this build.....£1000 about 1500$

Ian

[Dingo2024]

well after several weeks on ebay, I picked up most of the parts to assemble the bike (pedal only) I also made the choice of using a cyclone kit so as to be able to use the bikes gears to climb hills and also give a good top speed. Originally it was to be a 250w motor but then after spending so much time on ES and reading Burties build thread I went for the 1200w (obviously very legal in the UK) this of course has meant a bit of a rethink on several fronts....gearing, brakes, handling.....the list goes on and on! but hey I guess that is part of being involved in this type of stuff. Here is some of the stuff I now have; I ended up with a brand new frame and fork as well as a new set of wheels from another Subway 8 - these are Shimano Nexus 8 speed with drum type brakes so should be pretty much maintenance free and good for chain line as there is only one cog (sprocket) on the back

Ian

[cell_man]

Hi Ian,

I'll keep an eye on this 1

I hope the pack doesn't take too long to arrive to you. I hear there are some delays with shipping after the backlog caused by the volcanic ash. Hopefully doesn't take too long to arrive.

[Dingo2024]

Hi Ian,

I'll keep an eye on this 1

I hope the pack doesn't take too long to arrive to you. I hear there are some delays with shipping after the backlog caused by the volcanic ash. Hopefully doesn't take too long to arrive.

Thanks Paul, I just got confirmation from the UK cyclone distributor that my motor kit will be arriving around the 22nd May so hopefully it should all come together at a similar time.

The original plan was to go with a Ping but after reading so much about these cells here on ES; I am convinced that they will serve me well and actually be a better choice.

As you will probably appreciate my budget has gone completely out of the window.....and there is still a way to go..oh well its only money

Ian

[DAND214]

Dingo2024 says.
As you will probably appreciate my budget has gone completely out of the window.....and there is still a way to go..oh well its only money

Money? What is that? Budget? That too is a rare thing in this "hobby".
Dan

[cell_man]

Yeah of course it adds up but it will probably still be cheaper than an off the shelf Brand name 250W Ebike you can get in the UK. It's all good and it's just a bit of fun

[Dingo2024]

so with most of the bits together, it was time to test fit just to see what it looked like;

see what you think- parts include 60mm reach DH stem, Cannonade Bad boy bars, Schwalbe Kojak slicks (26"x2") Alfine chain tensioner, Wtb saddle with Biologic Zorin seat post which has a bike pump inside (from a Dahon folding bike) and double bolt seat clamp so no one can steal the post/pump

I am sure lots of this will change...but for now it appears ok

Ian

[Dingo2024]

ok start of the changes and the bike is not even up and running!

again I must firstly thank ES for the knowledge of its members in these matters and especially Boostjuice

It looks very much like optimizing the gearing is a worthwhile task with the cyclone kits to keep motor heat down and also to allow high speed pedal assist and therefore increased range and climbing ability.
So....after reading through the threads here and the use of Sheldon Browns excellent gear calculator, I realised that the stock setup of 44,44,32 on the front was not going to cut it at 48v. It had to be reduced by quite a lot!
What I ended with (although still not tested in the real world) was;

front is now 64,48,32...yes thats correct 64 tooth , to keep with the 104mm bcd of the mtb cranks this had to be custom made-thanks here goes to Sydney Australia and John at Cycleunderground chainring designs http://www.cycleunderground.com.au
...although it did take a while... excellent job
the 48t is a standard Shimano mtb chainring and was the largest I could find in 104mm bcd.
the 32t remains as purely a point to secure the other two rings.
Crank gearing sorted I then found that due to the wide bottom bracket axle used by cyclone that the pedal on the non drive side was very close to the ground for cornering
solution here was to replace the stock crank with something a little shorter; this was done by a set of Neon Bow 162mm trials cranks and oh just to be on the safe side the freewheel was replaced by the Sickbikes Eno

this is how the crankset looks now;

Ian

[bzhwindtalker]

wow!
No more auto shifting on the front I think? how many thooths do you have on the rear?

[novembersierra28]

You're quite literally THROWING money at it. where did you get your ENO freewheel from?

ok start of the changes and the bike is not even up and running!

again I must firstly thank ES for the knowledge of its members in these matters and especially Boostjuice

It looks very much like optimizing the gearing is a worthwhile task with the cyclone kits to keep motor heat down and also to allow high speed pedal assist and therefore increased range and climbing ability.
So....after reading through the threads here and the use of Sheldon Browns excellent gear calculator, I realised that the stock setup of 44,44,32 on the front was not going to cut it at 48v. It had to be reduced by quite a lot!
What I ended with (although still not tested in the real world) was;

front is now 64,48,32...yes thats correct 64 tooth , to keep with the 104mm bcd of the mtb cranks this had to be custom made-thanks here goes to Sydney Australia and John at Cycleunderground chainring designs http://www.cycleunderground.com.au
...although it did take a while... excellent job
the 48t is a standard Shimano mtb chainring and was the largest I could find in 104mm bcd.
the 32t remains as purely a point to secure the other two rings.
Crank gearing sorted I then found that due to the wide bottom bracket axle used by cyclone that the pedal on the non drive side was very close to the ground for cornering
solution here was to replace the stock crank with something a little shorter; this was done by a set of Neon Bow 162mm trials cranks and oh just to be on the safe side the freewheel was replaced by the Sickbikes Eno

this is how the crankset looks now;

Ian

[Dingo2024]

wow!
No more auto shifting on the front I think? how many thooths do you have on the rear?

the plan was always to run with the three chainrings on the front but with no changer; the bike will be used with the 48 ring and if there is a problem with motor or battery then I will manually put the chain on the 32 inner ring and adjust the Alfine tensioner (should only take a couple of minutes) this will be the 'get me home' mode ....hopefully will not need it though!

the rear is another story!.......
originally the Nexus hub came with a 20t and found that Shinamo can supply an 18t...but after checking Sheldon Brown found this to be still too low...just not the top speed I was looking for

so....I then find out that the fitting on Nexus is the same as other internal gear hubs such as Sturmey Archer and Sachs..result..this opens up a whole different range of sizes

I now have a 13t fitted from a Brompton folding bike..this gives me.. well a GOOD top speed

Ian

[Dingo2024]

Update

got some good news from cell_man yesterday

my battery is in the UK and should be with me soon...................only the motor kit to arrive now

hopefully in the next few days and then the ebike grin will begin



Ian

[Dingo2024]

You're quite literally THROWING money at it. where did you get your ENO freewheel from?

ok start of the changes and the bike is not even up and running!

again I must firstly thank ES for the knowledge of its members in these matters and especially Boostjuice

It looks very much like optimizing the gearing is a worthwhile task with the cyclone kits to keep motor heat down and also to allow high speed pedal assist and therefore increased range and climbing ability.
So....after reading through the threads here and the use of Sheldon Browns excellent gear calculator, I realised that the stock setup of 44,44,32 on the front was not going to cut it at 48v. It had to be reduced by quite a lot!
What I ended with (although still not tested in the real world) was;

front is now 64,48,32...yes thats correct 64 tooth , to keep with the 104mm bcd of the mtb cranks this had to be custom made-thanks here goes to Sydney Australia and John at Cycleunderground chainring designs http://www.cycleunderground.com.au
...although it did take a while... excellent job
the 48t is a standard Shimano mtb chainring and was the largest I could find in 104mm bcd.
the 32t remains as purely a point to secure the other two rings.
Crank gearing sorted I then found that due to the wide bottom bracket axle used by cyclone that the pedal on the non drive side was very close to the ground for cornering
solution here was to replace the stock crank with something a little shorter; this was done by a set of Neon Bow 162mm trials cranks and oh just to be on the safe side the freewheel was replaced by the Sickbikes Eno

this is how the crankset looks now;

Ian

the whole purpose of this build is day to day reliability and to refine it as much as possible....ultimately replacing the majority of my car journeys with the bike

this involves spending money-either buying top quality manufactured parts or getting them custom made...the last thing I need is to be stranded 20 miles away from home on a back road because of a snapped chain or blown up freewheel not my idea of fun

If I had chosen to stay with the original idea of using a 250w cyclone kit and 24volts then most of this stuff would not be needed...however I guess that this is the cost of speed and performance PLUS reliability....we will have to wait and see

btw the Eno came direct from Sickbikes in the States.....pretty quick delivery once you have gotten over the initial cost

Ian

[novembersierra28]

sickbikeparts quoted 87quid for an 18T 'HARDENED' freewheel, it was the wrong pitch and would need changing from 5/8 to 7/8, I gave up and bought a spare 14T freewheel from cyclone for 21 quid.

I use cyclone's freewheel with an ETEK 10hp. I welded it shut. total cost = 15quid...total mileage 152miles ridden on the odometer..Max speed 61mph. reliability = has let me down three times due to my asinine stupidity in using cheap chinese jumper cables rated at 50amps. It let me down a second time for not welding shut the freewheel. I used some cheap industrial cable that handles 400amps easily and now it works fine.

you should make it work good, THEN look good. it's like peugeot or land rover. that's what I think and I'm not putting down your work, on the contrary, i think the bike looks superb and is likely to put out quite a bit of power, but your money needs to go under the hood ..add some suspension forks ( just get some zoom (is it a 1" or 1 1/8" thread?) forks, they'll all break eventually

You're quite literally THROWING money at it. where did you get your ENO freewheel from?

ok start of the changes and the bike is not even up and running!

again I must firstly thank ES for the knowledge of its members in these matters and especially Boostjuice

It looks very much like optimizing the gearing is a worthwhile task with the cyclone kits to keep motor heat down and also to allow high speed pedal assist and therefore increased range and climbing ability.
So....after reading through the threads here and the use of Sheldon Browns excellent gear calculator, I realised that the stock setup of 44,44,32 on the front was not going to cut it at 48v. It had to be reduced by quite a lot!
What I ended with (although still not tested in the real world) was;

front is now 64,48,32...yes thats correct 64 tooth , to keep with the 104mm bcd of the mtb cranks this had to be custom made-thanks here goes to Sydney Australia and John at Cycleunderground chainring designs http://www.cycleunderground.com.au
...although it did take a while... excellent job
the 48t is a standard Shimano mtb chainring and was the largest I could find in 104mm bcd.
the 32t remains as purely a point to secure the other two rings.
Crank gearing sorted I then found that due to the wide bottom bracket axle used by cyclone that the pedal on the non drive side was very close to the ground for cornering
solution here was to replace the stock crank with something a little shorter; this was done by a set of Neon Bow 162mm trials cranks and oh just to be on the safe side the freewheel was replaced by the Sickbikes Eno

this is how the crankset looks now;

Ian

the whole purpose of this build is day to day reliability and to refine it as much as possible....ultimately replacing the majority of my car journeys with the bike

this involves spending money-either buying top quality manufactured parts or getting them custom made...the last thing I need is to be stranded 20 miles away from home on a back road because of a snapped chain or blown up freewheel not my idea of fun

If I had chosen to stay with the original idea of using a 250w cyclone kit and 24volts then most of this stuff would not be needed...however I guess that this is the cost of speed and performance PLUS reliability....we will have to wait and see

btw the Eno came direct from Sickbikes in the States.....pretty quick delivery once you have gotten over the initial cost

Ian

[Dingo2024]

this is the one thing I really like about ES; lots of different ideas and solutions to problems, levels of knowledge/expertise coming from all around the world....oh and of course different budgets and perceptions of value

as for me I have quite a few for this project.....some from the members here and some of my own...time will tell

as for now this is where we are.........waiting for motor and battery

Ian

[Dingo2024]

It's Christmas at my place

my battery is here; thanks go to cell_man (here on ES) for this......I was looking for a fully constructed pack..and that is what I got........ awesome

I cant recommend this guy enough...answered my noob questions quickly and delivered what I was looking for

dimensions with 80amp bms fitted and 75amp power poles are: 275mm x 110mm x 160mm and weight is 7.7kgs

btw this is a 48v 15a/h 16s pack

voltage on arrival was 52v

I am getting excited

only the motor kit to arrive now......should be next week

Ian

[Dingo2024]

another thing that I should mention is that I have a 13t freewheel to replace the stock 14t on the cyclone motor (when the motor actually turns up that is) this again is to further reduce the gear ratio of the motor/gearbox to allow for a better pedal cadence..at least for me
the problem is that the 13t is for 1/8" chain where as the cyclone is 3/32" chain...this has meant that one of my Gusset Slink chains in a previous picture had to be returned and swapped for a 1/8" one...lucky for me the retailer had one in stock and was happy to oblige
btw luckily I found this out BEFORE ordering the custom 64t front sprocket and therefore got this made to fit 1/8" chain

so I now have 3/32" chain from cranks to rear hub and 1/8" chain from motor to 64t front sprocket

nothing is ever straight forward..but at least gets the old grey matter working

Ian

[cell_man]

Good stuff Ian,

yeah I think it was discharged to about 50% SOC but the pack is balanced, so you should just have to plug it in for an hour or so and get the full capacity from the start.

The BMS on your pack is quite substantial and the material I used underneath the heat shrink add a little to the total, but it's worth it IMO. You should see the pre charge resistors I threw in with it. The resistance is a bit on the low side but they work fine and your connectors will be much happier.

You were quite lucky to get a built pack from me. I'm now not accepting any more built packs for the time being. The work involved along with the tiny profit I get for it just doesn't make sense for me until I can get someone else to do them.

[Dingo2024]

its been a while BUT.......we now have a working ebike guys ...yes it still needs a lot of tidying of wiring etc. especially to keep up the ES standards

here are a few pics of the build as it is.........................video will follow

changes are Fox 32 Talas forks and Richey adjustable handlebar stem

Ian

[Spacey]

Great bike dude

I bought the 900W Cyclone kit and am running it at 36v on a 15ah Ping battery. Top speed without pedalling on the flat 36mph....which is fast enough.

I have the same problem as you though, to get the gearing on the back cogs right so that the engine is not pulling too many amps (35amp controller, don't think the battery can put out that many amps for very long due to the cut outs I've had when I first road it in 8th gear everywhere)....I have to have it in 5th gear, this gives me around 24mph on average with full throttle no pedalling. It will keep this up for 12 miles without it ever hitting yellow on the battery gauge.

Pedalling though is impossible at this ratio, if I put it in 8th gear on the back cog it's pretty good, I can put in some effort but the motor is labouring somewhat and cuts the BMS.

I was thinking of running two chains from the front drive cogs, but that's not going to work. Do they do a smaller drive cog on the Cyclone, think I'm on 14t but could do with a 10t to 11t to get the ratios better.

Have done over 100 miles so far and is only 6 mins slower than the car on a 12 mile run to work.

[Dingo2024]

Great bike dude

I bought the 900W Cyclone kit and am running it at 36v on a 15ah Ping battery. Top speed without pedaling on the flat 36mph....which is fast enough.

I have the same problem as you though, to get the gearing on the back cogs right so that the engine is not pulling too many amps (35amp controller, don't think the battery can put out that many amps for very long due to the cut outs I've had when I first road it in 8th gear everywhere)....I have to have it in 5th gear, this gives me around 24mph on average with full throttle no pedalling. It will keep this up for 12 miles without it ever hitting yellow on the battery gauge.

Pedalling though is impossible at this ratio, if I put it in 8th gear on the back cog it's pretty good, I can put in some effort but the motor is labouring somewhat and cuts the BMS.

I was thinking of running two chains from the front drive cogs, but that's not going to work. Do they do a smaller drive cog on the Cyclone, think I'm on 14t but could do with a 10t to 11t to get the ratios better.

Have done over 100 miles so far and is only 6 mins slower than the car on a 12 mile run to work.

Hi man thanks for the appreciation

still lots to do but getting there.............slowly. Glad your happy with the kit

I guess you are on the chrome Dicta freewheel which is 14t....you can go down to 13t (bmx freewheel) and also switch the front 44t motor chainwheel for a 48t (its a 104mm BCD 4 bolt mtb fitment) which is the biggest stock size I could find...........this should be much better for the motor and controller draw than your current pedal speed set up. At 36v the motor does not spin as fast as on 48v so should be about right and you wont need a 64t front ring as I am using. Mine is now geared to match an 88rpm pedal cadence with max motor efficiency..........if my calculations are correct
Not had a chance to try fully yet...........a run up to 3rd gear is all its done.......but sh*t did it pull

hope this helps,

thanks,

Ian

[Dingo2024]

well...I have managed to get more stuff done and had my first 'real' ride today to the local bike shop (about a 3 mile round trip and not flat at all)....I guess I can say at this point that I am genuinely impressed with the way the bike rides...the gearing is spot on

so...the wiring is a little tidier - still more to do though
the Fox 32 front forks have been rebuilt with new bushes and wiper seals.....the TALAS (travel adjust) now works as it should so can change the ride height and steering head angle...also played around with the air pressures...super fork
set the angle and height of the stem for a more upright riding position
new brake levers after I was told that the controller was not set up for e brake..so did away with the extra wires
the motor now has cooling fins mounted.....red in colour!
also fitted the grips to the bars....but are typical cheap sh*t and too hard
and lastly put the tyres up to 40psi to see what they ride like....if you are looking for a really fast rolling light weight 26 x 2 tyre you wont find much better in my opinion than theses Schwalbe Kojacks

a few pics from today

Ian

[deVries]

a few pics from today

Can you post these as JPGs? Most won't have rar installed to decompress.

Thanks!

[cell_man]

Hi Ian,

can you please ensure you use a pre charge resistor when powering up the controller. The current inrush might cause a problem with the BMS over time. Low IR cells like these cause a really nasty current spike. Your connectors will appreciate it too.