MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

[neptronix]

Just the basic DD that comes in the cell_man kit.

Voltage? as high as it will go. Will start at 56v nominal, and probably go up to 76v nominal if it can handle it.
I think i will also start doing all the 9C mods to it too.

Or hell, maybe the girlfriend bike will get the DD and i'll keep the MAC. as long as i have two working and fast ebikes, to fend off the withdrawals

[o00scorpion00o]

76 volts David, Oh yeahhh

I think you have to dump lots of current into direct drives to get decent torque out of them, not a problem though really unless you got lots of steep hills, though I think higher voltage gives you extra torque also!

I can't wait to test my Mac to see how it compares to my old magic pie!

Oh yeah definitely give your girlfriend the slower motor!

Now if I could get my girlfriend on any kind of a bike I'd be happy!


Mark

[neptronix]

Well, the bike is still down & am waiting for parts. Should be here saturday or early next week.

In the meantime, been converting my lipos that have a funky / dead cell into what i call neptigy lipos.. hehe:



You know, doing cell surgery on lipos is not all that bad really.
This is a little 2S pack that i'll use on my lights in lieu of a DC-DC converter since i will be experimenting with lots of varied voltages.



The more i read this forum, the more i realize how little i know about electronics.. i don't even know how to read an electrical schematic.. so i got this off craigslist to poke around and learn. Pretty humbling but you have to start somewhere.

Other than that, been pedaling on my hybrid bike a lot. Seeing how fast i can go through speed traps, doing hill climbs and building up my strength for the day that the weather stops sucking.

Overcast and very humid here lately though. Sucks.

[amberwolf]

I started with something a little like that, only much simpler and less cool-looking, for an "electronics" kit. I think mine had a transistor, but no ICs, not even LEDs. Relays, diodes, lamps. Mmm, a tiny motor, AM antenna coil like yours, speaker. I think that's it. 9V battery clip.

Mostly I ended up learning the very basics from a ham-radio friend I met due to a bike crash on a gravel road, then the RadioShack Forrest Mims III books and booklets (you should get those, if you can; they're nifty and have some useful stuff in them that can be adapted to bike-useful circuits). DeVry came after that, but really if I didn't already know something I would've dropped out, as they didn't really teach anything, they expected you to learn it on your own after some in-class "explanations". A couple of teachers were exceptional, but not most. (at LEAST 3/4 of my starting class quit before the end of the first trimester!)

It's not hard...just...takes time to learn. Some concepts are difficult at first, but suddenly BLAM you get them and lots of other things are easy after that. Like transistors, which I couldn't grasp, for years, until one teacher's explanation (which I wish I could remember) just suddenly lit my brain up.

[neptronix]

Thanks for the peptalk, amberwolf
I had one of these when i was 12 but only succeeded in making some kind of AC power supply out of a nicad gameboy battery which eventually caused the battery to suffer a meltdown. I think the kit got taken away from me after that, LOL.

That sucks about Devry, i was always wary of schools like that. I think people do learn differently.. i for example am very visual.. show me how it works and i will grasp it instantly.. explain theory and metaphysical stuff for a few minutes and i'm lost.

I have learned a ton about electronics on this forum, but felt like a total idiot when i first come here and occasionally still do. I am a true believer that electric drive is the way of the future, so i'd like to know more..

[amberwolf]

The nice thing about electric drive is that if you look around you, and you know what you're looking for, you might be able to pull parts off stuff junked on the sidewalk or in a nearby alley to fix the thing well enough to get home if it breaks while on the road. Heck, you could even rewind a motor with wire off transformers and such, if you *had* to.

That's not quite as likely with a typical ICE, although there are things you can fix on those with some duct tape that wouldnt' be possible on an electric drive.

[neptronix]

Hah, maybe on your bike.
I didn't know you could use transformer wire for the task.. it has the enamel on it and all that?

But if eBikes get more popular, it would be cool to find brushless hub motors on the side of the road, lol..

Anyway lookie at what i got in the mail today.



DD kit as a backup, or maybe as the girlfriend bike motor



63v caps and a shunt that's just asking for some solder on it. I think i'll keep it stock though since it is a backup and all.



Found a 'new old stock' shimano megarange freewheel on eBay, that arrived today too. Paid $50 for it.. not a bad deal IMHO considering how rare it is. DNP 11t freewheel on the right, which surprisingly, is holding up well.



But i won't be riding today. Looks like i could get stuck in a downpour... in the middle of summer..

[o00scorpion00o]

Hey david,

Wow that got there quick!

haha That direct drive looks big compared to the mac doesn't it?

That's a strange looking heatsink on those fet's what controller is it?

how many volts are oyu going to run through there?

Downpour in summer? you think that's bad, I had to clear frost of the car this morning on the 10th June? wtf?

That DD is going to be slow compared to the mac, give it to your girlfriend!

[neptronix]

Sea shipping from coastal China is amazingly fast.. seriously.. one week! And it had to travel 1000 miles north by land to get to me. O_O

Yeah, it's damned big.. and heavy too.
That controller is the stock MXUS kit one. It's a 6FET i believe. Not programmable, and set to 22 amps.

The DD is slow, it's an 8 turn motor so it will need 60-72 volts to produce the same speed that the MAC does, but i have a feeling that it is going to have beastly torque so i'm excited to test it out. I think i'll start at 15S and see what happens.

You've got frost where you live? oh dude. that's bad.

[o00scorpion00o]

Yep went to the car at 6am to be greeted by ice on the car, this is F*****g nuts, was gone soon enough but still!

I don't think that DD will have great torque at 22 amps? and you might need to install 12G to go higher

However at 72 volts it should fly!

Why did you get with the DD if you don't mind me asking? considering the mac is so powerful with less voltage!

[neptronix]

I got the DD as a backup motor. I don't ever want to be without an ebike! Good riding weather is supposed to come soon, so i refuse to be down again.

It will get 72v This winding does a meager 15mph at 36v, hehe.

The good news is that it has less drag than i thought, so pedaling unpowered may be less of a PITA than expected. But i still prefer the MAC for the freewheeling, for sure.

[amberwolf]

Hah, maybe on your bike.
I didn't know you could use transformer wire for the task.. it has the enamel on it and all that?

Yes. It is exactly the same thing in motors and transformers, except that the stuff in transformers is probably more typically a lower-temperature enamel. I have not yet done the experiment, but I've unwound a number of large transformers, CRT yokes, and other things over the years, saving the wire onto old spools, so that I could rewind it onto motors for bike experiments or repairs.

At one time I was gathering the wire so I could rewind an old AC-induction cieling-fan motor as a brushless PM, but Karma ended up doing that for me with his own much thicker wire. I just have to get time to make a flux ring to mount magnets on for that motor, so that I can begin testing it for usefulness on a bike.

But if eBikes get more popular, it would be cool to find brushless hub motors on the side of the road, lol..

That would be nice. Eventually, it will happen, because at least here in the USA, we just throw out whatever we don't want anymore, useful or not. (in fact, the government *wants* us to do that, and laws are often written to keep you from saving stuff).

[neptronix]

Amberwolf, in a mad max future.. you will be king

(in fact, the government *wants* us to do that, and laws are often written to keep you from saving stuff).

Hmm.. what do you mean by this exactly ? I know there are car scrappage programs, and analogue TV went extinct recently, but other than that, it's usually the corporations pushing the rapid changes in tech / obsoleteism.

However i do have a little conspiracy theory when it comes to cars. There were a lot of brands that made solid cars in the 1980's-1990's period, but when yr. 2000 hit, a lot of automaker's reliability and build quality went to hell, as if a switch was flipped. Now cars seem to be built to be disposable. I don't know if it is a built in scrappage program like Japan or what..

By the way, i have a goodie for y'all. This is a new MAC gray gear. Side by side with my spare BMC gearset.



Taller, a bit heavier, and what looks and feels like a better bearing too.
My stock gears are still in really good shape. I will keep these as a second set of spares.

[o00scorpion00o]

That's nice to see that the gears are a little wider and better built!

Ha did someone mention car scrappage ? lol we have that there, but it's a load of s***e we don't make cars, so it doesn't make sense!

I'm dying David for you to get that DD up and running on 72 volts, it will be interesting! I wonder could you dump 40 amps into it? I bet it would fly!

[neptronix]

Okay, got the DD motor hooked up on the bike.
Installation was stupidly easy. I plugged in the stock hall + phase connectors directly into the 9FET that. No problems!

I am glad i chose the MAC motor over a DD. This motor takes almost the same watts in ( 33 amps instead of 36 ) and does just a bit less work. It is also quite loud to the outside world. People seem to notice it, whereas they don't seem to notice the MAC motor, which puzzles me. Something about how it radiates sound outward i guess. My lady said she could hear me outside. This is contrary to everything i've been told about DDs.

Only tested it at 36v so far. Top speed was 26mph while pedaling. Steady speed is about 23mph or so.

The one positive thing i have to say is that the throttle action is SUPER buttery. I can dial it down to hearing the individual phases firing off. There is no lurch and jolt of acceleration, and low throttle uses low amps, which in turn gives a very linear and responsive feel. I like this a lot.

Another positive thing is that the pedal drag isn't all too bad, then again i do not have regen enabled. The MAC definitely feels like pedaling a regular bike.. this feels like you have a very slightly rubbing brake.

Well, the meanwell's fan apparently doesn't work. It got super freakin' hot inside and started making a buzzing sound. I put a PC fan on top of it and it started shooting out mega hot air. wtf?

Shortly thereafter, voltage jumped from 41v to 48v and amps were all over the place from 4a to 5a. Opened it up and it was a bit smelly inside. Fantastic

Edit: the 48v meanwell has recovered, thank you cosmic jellybean. After cooling off some, it started back up at 41.5v and the current is now at a steady 6.67A as it should be.

Another edit: Oh dear, now that i started it up, it's charging at 6.66 amps instead of 6.67.

[o00scorpion00o]

I wonder is the noise something to do with the controller? I hear some controllers can make different motors a lot noisier ?

That's interesting that you notice it's not too bad to pedal though I wonder how long you could actually pedal?

So are you turning Direct Drive now?

You have to go back to using your Icharger then?

[neptronix]

The noise is quite similar under no load, i haven't ridden on it with the stock 22a controller, so i don't know what it's like loaded.

I don't think i'm a convert. I don't like the higher weight at all. The throttle action is a lot nicer. I think i will try out a crystalyte analog controller out on the MAC though. Should provide the plus side of the DD with none of the weight

The meanwell works despite it's demonic posession. I finished up my charge on it no problem. The fact that it survived the overheating is a good sign that it is a hardy unit.. the non-functioning fan though... well, that sucks. Will investigate later. Until then, the case is open so it expels heat pretty well hehe..

[o00scorpion00o]

I noticed the Mac is noisier at different speeds and on acceleration, but at full speed it's not bad at all and wind noise drowns out any noise at full speed anyway.

It wouldn't bother me at all and it's so much more fun that any direct drive at similar power levels!

I know people were using analog controllers on the BMC 1000W because of heating phase wires, I think that issue is sorted now though?

I don't think there would be an advantage using it on the mac? no harm in trying anyway.

Can't wait until you get the DD up to 72 volts @40 amps!

Lucky your meanwell survived the roasting aright, I may get one of those in the future for a faster bulk charge. Really I will be just happy to get my ZIppy's finally next week, then I can be another converted LiPo addict! With only 2 bricks arriving first I bet the mac will drain that very fast! But it should be fine for boost on hills, I could still see myself getting long distances even with 5ah!

Did you get the covers on the mac yet? I bet you will be glad to have that back!

[neptronix]

hey hey. I got the covers on the MAC and the motor is a-ok now, just giving the DD a beating for fun. Aside from being heavy as hell, not as efficient, and louder, i kinda like the motor. You know why? the wheel drag seems to be exponential to speed, and it really eases braking from high speeds. That's a big upside because normally i am riding the brakes hard to get my fatass + a 60lb bike stopped.

The analog crystalyte controller has a smoother throttle action than the infineons, that is the attraction to it.

Oh, here's the DD hub on 15S / 60v.

[neptronix]

Okay, the MAC is back on the bike. Was going to do a 72v run but once i picked up the MAC i couldn't resist putting it back on.

Two interesting findings:

This DD ( also found in 2 popular ebike kits ... not naming any names lol ) has a funky freewheel machining.. I have 3x 7 speed freewheels and 2 of them fit on it real nice ( oldschool DNP megagear, and oldschool shimano megarange ), whereas the new 7 speed shimano binds up against the hub cover and won't move!

Tried the DD controller out on the MAC for the hell of it. speed modulation works a hell of a lot better, however you need to feather the throttle at start otherwise the motor seems to de-sync for a moment.

It's not buttery smooth as running the DD motor, but it is a big improvement. The big downside is the 22 amp limitation, so it bogs down and has a hard time hitting top sped It also gets rather hot pulling those amps. This motor needs amps.

I will pull it apart tomorrow and try a shunt mod + add some cooling maybe. I wonder if the company that produces this controller also produces a larger 9-12FET designed for 48v operation.

[Spacey]

I have found that the MAC geared motors need a controller that is built for that motor as the timing of the halls is slightly different. Get a 9 or 12 Fet controller from cellman with programming cable. The standard ebikes.ca infineon ran really rough on the Macs.

[neptronix]

I am using the included controller, however i am just not happy with it's throttle action. I'm picky.

Anyway i did a shunt mod on the DD controller after noticing that it had 9 FETs.
I figured it could handle more amps for sure.



From 22 amps... to 30.6 amps . Warm-Hot to to the touch after some hills. That's pretty good considering that i have it in a padded and suffocating black case with 0 airflow.

Motor barely rises above outside temp at 30.6 amps. The MAC can take some damn amps.

She's got 63v caps so i am a bit concerned about running 15S. Even if i charge my batteries to 4.10v/cell ( 61.5v fully charged ), i am way too close to the limit

Not too interested in investing in 4S packs right now.. so i'll see if i can find a 48v version of this.

[neptronix]

Man, i have been dumping some $$$$ on stuff lately.

+ 1.85" Michelin citytires replaced the 1.95" armadillo rear and front forte 1.75" tire.
WAY better cornering, super smooth ride, and low rolling resistance.. wow! what an improvement! They were cheap too at $20 per.

20AH ammo can battery box was NOT working out as designed when i set it up and the topeak rack was way too noisy / jerky / disbalanced the bike too much.. soo..

+ Ordered the Crystalyte battery bag from itselectric.ca
+ Ordered the center triangle battery bag from FalconEV.

One of these bags better work out or i'm gonna go nuts !!

Already have one magicshine, was thinking of adding another, apparently there was a design change..

+ Ordered 2 magicshine 900's. I will run 2 on the bike for super night vision.

ALSO.. the gopro arrived today what a cool unit, way worth the money.

Tested out the MAC motor on the hill.. same test as the DD, but gave the MAC motor 3 less volts since i had been running around earlier:



Guess what.... the MAC motor went 3mph faster at the steepest part of the hill despite the voltage difference. And didn't even get warm at 36 amps.

Here's another video of me seeing how fast i can go. Hit 38mph on 15S, pretty good! on flat land i may be able to go quicker still.

[Spacey]

Glad you are using two hands on the last video lol

[o00scorpion00o]

So that's what neptronix looks like! hehehe

Yeah it's amazing the difference the tyres make especially when peddling! Look out for the Continental sport contact tyres, They are super!

How many bricks do you think you will fit in the crystalyte bag?

I have the topeak bag and I think it's okay, it is a bit noisy al right, they could have designed it that it doesn't rattle so much!

Is it the 320 rpm mac you got again david I forget?