MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

[o00scorpion00o]

I wonder is the noise something to do with the controller? I hear some controllers can make different motors a lot noisier ?

That's interesting that you notice it's not too bad to pedal though I wonder how long you could actually pedal?

So are you turning Direct Drive now?

You have to go back to using your Icharger then?

[neptronix]

The noise is quite similar under no load, i haven't ridden on it with the stock 22a controller, so i don't know what it's like loaded.

I don't think i'm a convert. I don't like the higher weight at all. The throttle action is a lot nicer. I think i will try out a crystalyte analog controller out on the MAC though. Should provide the plus side of the DD with none of the weight

The meanwell works despite it's demonic posession. I finished up my charge on it no problem. The fact that it survived the overheating is a good sign that it is a hardy unit.. the non-functioning fan though... well, that sucks. Will investigate later. Until then, the case is open so it expels heat pretty well hehe..

[o00scorpion00o]

I noticed the Mac is noisier at different speeds and on acceleration, but at full speed it's not bad at all and wind noise drowns out any noise at full speed anyway.

It wouldn't bother me at all and it's so much more fun that any direct drive at similar power levels!

I know people were using analog controllers on the BMC 1000W because of heating phase wires, I think that issue is sorted now though?

I don't think there would be an advantage using it on the mac? no harm in trying anyway.

Can't wait until you get the DD up to 72 volts @40 amps!

Lucky your meanwell survived the roasting aright, I may get one of those in the future for a faster bulk charge. Really I will be just happy to get my ZIppy's finally next week, then I can be another converted LiPo addict! With only 2 bricks arriving first I bet the mac will drain that very fast! But it should be fine for boost on hills, I could still see myself getting long distances even with 5ah!

Did you get the covers on the mac yet? I bet you will be glad to have that back!

[neptronix]

hey hey. I got the covers on the MAC and the motor is a-ok now, just giving the DD a beating for fun. Aside from being heavy as hell, not as efficient, and louder, i kinda like the motor. You know why? the wheel drag seems to be exponential to speed, and it really eases braking from high speeds. That's a big upside because normally i am riding the brakes hard to get my fatass + a 60lb bike stopped.

The analog crystalyte controller has a smoother throttle action than the infineons, that is the attraction to it.

Oh, here's the DD hub on 15S / 60v.

[neptronix]

Okay, the MAC is back on the bike. Was going to do a 72v run but once i picked up the MAC i couldn't resist putting it back on.

Two interesting findings:

This DD ( also found in 2 popular ebike kits ... not naming any names lol ) has a funky freewheel machining.. I have 3x 7 speed freewheels and 2 of them fit on it real nice ( oldschool DNP megagear, and oldschool shimano megarange ), whereas the new 7 speed shimano binds up against the hub cover and won't move!

Tried the DD controller out on the MAC for the hell of it. speed modulation works a hell of a lot better, however you need to feather the throttle at start otherwise the motor seems to de-sync for a moment.

It's not buttery smooth as running the DD motor, but it is a big improvement. The big downside is the 22 amp limitation, so it bogs down and has a hard time hitting top sped It also gets rather hot pulling those amps. This motor needs amps.

I will pull it apart tomorrow and try a shunt mod + add some cooling maybe. I wonder if the company that produces this controller also produces a larger 9-12FET designed for 48v operation.

[Spacey]

I have found that the MAC geared motors need a controller that is built for that motor as the timing of the halls is slightly different. Get a 9 or 12 Fet controller from cellman with programming cable. The standard ebikes.ca infineon ran really rough on the Macs.

[neptronix]

I am using the included controller, however i am just not happy with it's throttle action. I'm picky.

Anyway i did a shunt mod on the DD controller after noticing that it had 9 FETs.
I figured it could handle more amps for sure.



From 22 amps... to 30.6 amps . Warm-Hot to to the touch after some hills. That's pretty good considering that i have it in a padded and suffocating black case with 0 airflow.

Motor barely rises above outside temp at 30.6 amps. The MAC can take some damn amps.

She's got 63v caps so i am a bit concerned about running 15S. Even if i charge my batteries to 4.10v/cell ( 61.5v fully charged ), i am way too close to the limit

Not too interested in investing in 4S packs right now.. so i'll see if i can find a 48v version of this.

[neptronix]

Man, i have been dumping some $$$$ on stuff lately.

+ 1.85" Michelin citytires replaced the 1.95" armadillo rear and front forte 1.75" tire.
WAY better cornering, super smooth ride, and low rolling resistance.. wow! what an improvement! They were cheap too at $20 per.

20AH ammo can battery box was NOT working out as designed when i set it up and the topeak rack was way too noisy / jerky / disbalanced the bike too much.. soo..

+ Ordered the Crystalyte battery bag from itselectric.ca
+ Ordered the center triangle battery bag from FalconEV.

One of these bags better work out or i'm gonna go nuts !!

Already have one magicshine, was thinking of adding another, apparently there was a design change..

+ Ordered 2 magicshine 900's. I will run 2 on the bike for super night vision.

ALSO.. the gopro arrived today what a cool unit, way worth the money.

Tested out the MAC motor on the hill.. same test as the DD, but gave the MAC motor 3 less volts since i had been running around earlier:



Guess what.... the MAC motor went 3mph faster at the steepest part of the hill despite the voltage difference. And didn't even get warm at 36 amps.

Here's another video of me seeing how fast i can go. Hit 38mph on 15S, pretty good! on flat land i may be able to go quicker still.

[Spacey]

Glad you are using two hands on the last video lol

[o00scorpion00o]

So that's what neptronix looks like! hehehe

Yeah it's amazing the difference the tyres make especially when peddling! Look out for the Continental sport contact tyres, They are super!

How many bricks do you think you will fit in the crystalyte bag?

I have the topeak bag and I think it's okay, it is a bit noisy al right, they could have designed it that it doesn't rattle so much!

Is it the 320 rpm mac you got again david I forget?

[neptronix]

Spacey, yeah, i am being a bit stupid here lol.. but the bike is quite stable.

Scorpion, no idea! apparently the bag is huge though, and will fit some pings in it according to Ken at itselectric Whatever i can't fit in the it will go into the rear rack.

Continentals look cool but they're twice the price locally.
And yeah, the MAC is 320rpm. Standard wind.

[o00scorpion00o]

Fit some pings in it? wow, it must be big, how many 5ah do you think you could fit in the triangle of a normal bike? What kind of pings,

I too would like an alternative to the battery in the back, and the little 5ah look so lost in the topaeak bag now, poor things, hopefully I can get a few more for company! hehe

By the way David, I love the roads you got there! sure beats the crap I ride on!

[JohnC]

.

[neptronix]

scorpion: i will report on how many 5s lipos fit in these bags as soon as i get them

The roads here are fairly good, my main complaint is bike lanes that appear and disappear randomly in the suburban areas, particularly high traffic main streets.. often times when there is plenty of shoulder space to install a bike lane

JohnC: no, i was running on 10ah of 15S for the MAC test, thus the ~3 volt advantage due to more voltage sag + a slightly lower charge on the hill test.

The reason is that more than 6 5S lipos on the rear rack makes for a flexing seat tube / frame whenever i hit a substantial bump. That and the rear balance gets worse the more crap you jam in there.

I usually stick some in a front bag that i bought, but it only fits 4 5s packs.

http://www.bikepartsexpress.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=BG2540&Category_Code=C13&Store_Code=BPE&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=na&utm_campaign=froogle&utm_content=BG2540

[o00scorpion00o]

That's a cool looking bag, Ive searched and can't find anything like it here as usual, I might look at U.K websites!

I was thinking of adding another 3-4S for 55-59 volts. I think it would fly @16S, probably do the 40 mph if yours does 38 on 15S?

The DD you got is as fast as my mac on 44 volts, that's a big difference and shows the efficiency advantages of geared motors.

The new Crystalyte DD motors seem to be good though, but I don't think I'd go back the DD route now!

Can I add a 20C brick to my 25C bricks if I want to go to 5 or 6S?

[neptronix]

If you're going to mix and match C rate cells, do it in parallel, not series.
The higher C rate cells will drain themselves more enthusiastically, thus will hit lower voltage sooner, yet the lower C rate cells will be at a higher voltage than normal.

Keep with the same manufacturer and make if you can. C ratings mean different things to different manufacturers.
For example my turnigy lipo has half the voltage sag and internal resistance as my zippys, even though both are marketed as 20C packs.

16S may very well do 40mph. That will eat amps for breakfast, so watch out

[o00scorpion00o]

Yeah 40 mph would be crazy!

That's good I know that now, because I was going to order 3S yesterday but then I spotted the 20C and the Zippy's I have now are 25C, so I'm glad I didn't get them now. I can't find any 3 or 4S 25C all out of stock on HK, I still can't believe they are out of stock of most batteries, it's really shocking!

I think the mac can take the 40 mph though, at 32 mph on the ping while I had it it was hardly warm!

AH It's just for fun the last mile or 2 from home to use up some ah I'll have left after a good cycle!

I could imagine Pat's face at 40 mph! muhahah!

[eugen]

here is my version of trek 4300




Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[neptronix]

Another 4300, sweet!
Do you have a build thread? / more info..

[eugen]

yeah i have all story on Croatian forum if you understand that language

http://www.e-vozila.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1445

For futher upgrade i can open also one thred here on ES

[neptronix]

Hmm.. google is doing a bad job of translating that site, i can't read to much.

Anyway i took the DD hub out for a spin tonight on 10S / 76V w/the cell man controller.
Top speed was 43.9mph but that was on a slight downhill. Hit 41mph on a flat, but that took time. The amp limit is the problem here, otherwise i would be going about 46-50mph.

I could have cooked breakfast for an army on the poor little 9FET.
The motor was pretty hot too.
I am sure i was drawing 2800-3000 watts peak the entire time for almost 30 mins. Stunned that nothing went kaboom.

I'm thinking that the constant watt limit for the MXUS DD is about 2500w now.

[gensem]

Hey Neptronix,

How does the DD feel at 3k comparing to the MAC at 1.5k?
I know the MAC is hella fun with 35-40amps so the DD should be fun with 60.
Btw using the XDP I was able to set blocktime to 0 in MAC and it really cuts the torque by alot when launching. I ll test the Amp peaks with turnigy watt meter tmr with and without BT enabled.


Thanks

[o00scorpion00o]

Hey Eugen,

That looks super, and the battery box, defiantly start a new build thread and tell us all about it!


David,

It would be interesting to see your results with the 12 fet infineon!

But even with all that power do you think the mac is still better than the dd with all that extra wattage?

Did you try the mac with the extra power of your 9 fet? It sure is fun @2000+ watts!


gensem,

That is interesting, Does it cut the Launch torque too much or does it make it a lot smoother?

I find that the launch torque is far too much, I mean if you have to always watch or tell people to push lightly on the throttle, and be concious of the fact if you hit it too hard it will throw you, then there is far too much torque!

I think the block time is good for direct drives but not necessary on the higher powered geared motors, because they already got the torque to get going without the extra surge of current!

So I may try set the block time when my 3 speed switch comes, that might be infineons version of soft start!

By the way I ordered 2 x 4S 5ah zippy's from HK, they actually have them in stock, not in Europe of course, so I guess they are coming from China, I hope the floods don't delay that too much.

16S is going to be wicked on the mac guys I can't wait!

[gensem]

gensem,

That is interesting, Does it cut the Launch torque too much or does it make it a lot smoother?

I find that the launch torque is far too much, I mean if you have to always watch or tell people to push lightly on the throttle, and be concious of the fact if you hit it too hard it will throw you, then there is far too much torque!

I think the block time is good for direct drives but not necessary on the higher powered geared motors, because they already got the torque to get going without the extra surge of current!

So I may try set the block time when my 3 speed switch comes, that might be infineons version of soft start!

By the way I ordered 2 x 4S 5ah zippy's from HK, they actually have them in stock, not in Europe of course, so I guess they are coming from China, I hope the floods don't delay that too much.

16S is going to be wicked on the mac guys I can't wait!

It does cut the starting torque by alot, there is not torque hit at the start but the climbing ability is still pretty much the same. My friends who arent used with the bike likes the lower torque alot, but me... I could use some Amps, hehe.
Granted Im using a 16s ping with 15ah and my peak amps are around 29.7amps(1500w on turnigy WM), I would love to be able to let it use lets say 38 amps (around 2k input power) for higher clibbing ability.
btw my MAC is defective, it never freewheeled and If I turn the throttle hard after using the brakes there is a loud iron hitting iron noise inside the motor. The drag is not big by no means.
I might consider a motor with regen new time.

[o00scorpion00o]

It does cut the starting torque by alot, there is not torque hit at the start but the climbing ability is still pretty much the same. My friends who arent used with the bike likes the lower torque alot, but me... I could use some Amps, hehe.
Granted Im using a 16s ping with 15ah and my peak amps are around 29.7amps(1500w on turnigy WM), I would love to be able to let it use lets say 38 amps (around 2k input power) for higher clibbing ability.
btw my MAC is defective, it never freewheeled and If I turn the throttle hard after using the brakes there is a loud iron hitting iron noise inside the motor. The drag is not big by no means.
I might consider a motor with regen new time.

Yeah, regen is cool, but really It doesn't bother me not having it. Hydraulic disk brakes are more than good enough for me and you don't put anything worthwhile back in the battery unless you are going down a mountain.

I just find the launch torque on the mac too agressive, but if the bike was much lower to the ground it wouldn't be so dangerous!

If I find that bt of 0 too low, maybe I can go to 0.5 if it allows?

When did you get your mac?

I hope mine survives, though I won't be using it for miles at a time just for boost on hills and some fun the last mile or two from home after a long cycle.


Mark