MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

[veloman]

I'll tell you guys a secret about saving the clutch and the gears
If you have a programming cable, you can tune out the initial torque, which will help a ton.

Most infineons are set for a 1:3 battery to phase ratio, meaning that if your battery current limit is 30, then the phase limit is 90. OK, this is fun because it makes for a nice blast of torque from a stall. It's fine for DDs who have low torque too.

But I like to change this to 1:2.5-2.3 .. so for my 40A battery current, that's 40 x 2.4 = 96 phase amps.

This means that you will have more of a flat torque band, and notably less initial kick from a stall - half, or less.. The upside is that at mid-high speed, you retain your hill climbing torque. It also forces you to pedal a bit from a stall, which is good for you as in a high powered setup, there is a tendency to get lazy.

Thanks for reminding me about this, I'm going to reset mine right now. Most of the time I actually wish it was a little slower off the line.

[hillzofvalp]

I Really want one of those 60T chainrings.. but for 104mm 4 bolt mtb cranks.. Where did you get your 4 bolt road one? I just may have to CNC the gear I need

[neptronix]

I Really want one of those 60T chainrings.. but for 104mm 4 bolt mtb cranks.. Where did you get your 4 bolt road one? I just may have to CNC the gear I need

You're referring to the magic pie build, right? 60T chainring came from Vuelta USA. Good unit too.

http://www.vueltausa.com/

You can always just switch out your cranks if you can't get a 4 bolter from 'em. Might actually be worth it considering the kind of $ they are asking for chainrings these days.

[Stryker16]

I'll tell you guys a secret about saving the clutch and the gears
If you have a programming cable, you can tune out the initial torque, which will help a ton.

Most infineons are set for a 1:3 battery to phase ratio, meaning that if your battery current limit is 30, then the phase limit is 90. OK, this is fun because it makes for a nice blast of torque from a stall. It's fine for DDs who have low torque too.

But I like to change this to 1:2.5-2.3 .. so for my 40A battery current, that's 40 x 2.4 = 96 phase amps.

This means that you will have more of a flat torque band, and notably less initial kick from a stall - half, or less.. The upside is that at mid-high speed, you retain your hill climbing torque. It also forces you to pedal a bit from a stall, which is good for you as in a high powered setup, there is a tendency to get lazy.

just ordered a mac kit (thanks mostly to you). playing around with the software and wondering what inputs you are talking about. i want to flatten the torque band for sure so do i simply change 'phase current' and 'rated current' to get a ratio of around 2.5?

[neptronix]

I'll tell you guys a secret about saving the clutch and the gears
If you have a programming cable, you can tune out the initial torque, which will help a ton.

Most infineons are set for a 1:3 battery to phase ratio, meaning that if your battery current limit is 30, then the phase limit is 90. OK, this is fun because it makes for a nice blast of torque from a stall. It's fine for DDs who have low torque too.

But I like to change this to 1:2.5-2.3 .. so for my 40A battery current, that's 40 x 2.4 = 96 phase amps.

This means that you will have more of a flat torque band, and notably less initial kick from a stall - half, or less.. The upside is that at mid-high speed, you retain your hill climbing torque. It also forces you to pedal a bit from a stall, which is good for you as in a high powered setup, there is a tendency to get lazy.

just ordered a mac kit (thanks mostly to you). playing around with the software and wondering what inputs you are talking about. i want to flatten the torque band for sure so do i simply change 'phase current' and 'rated current' to get a ratio of around 2.5?

2.5 or less, yeah. 2.3 works too.
The battery current is going to be the lower number.

[Stryker16]

2.5 or less, yeah. 2.3 works too.
The battery current is going to be the lower number.

doh! should have read his instruction sheet he clearly states this. my apologies.
thanks again for this thread which i have read pretty much front to back.

on an aside i am searching for the best way to install torque arms similar to your customs. is my best course of action to just buy a pair from docbass?
i have a trek hardtail as well and the dropouts are not very flat, i am worried the arms wont sit flat.

[Sacman]

I'll tell you guys a secret about saving the clutch and the gears
If you have a programming cable, you can tune out the initial torque, which will help a ton.

Most infineons are set for a 1:3 battery to phase ratio, meaning that if your battery current limit is 30, then the phase limit is 90. OK, this is fun because it makes for a nice blast of torque from a stall. It's fine for DDs who have low torque too.

But I like to change this to 1:2.5-2.3 .. so for my 40A battery current, that's 40 x 2.4 = 96 phase amps.

This means that you will have more of a flat torque band, and notably less initial kick from a stall - half, or less.. The upside is that at mid-high speed, you retain your hill climbing torque. It also forces you to pedal a bit from a stall, which is good for you as in a high powered setup, there is a tendency to get lazy.

That's a good trick to know about the Infineon controllers to save your geared hubmotor. I use the "soft start" function on my BMC controller. It basically does the same thing but a little bit different. It gradually ramps up the power over 1.5 seconds. So it drastically reduces most of the "low moaning-ginding sound" and elliminates the jerky starts these geared hubmotors make from a dead stop.

[veloman]

I don't know, I set my phase current to 30amps (battery to 13, which is really 26amps), and I still can launch off the line faster than I want. It's torquey from 0mph.

Maybe I need to set it to 1:3 for perspective.....

[ebiker1]

neptronix......... just reading your first post. i'm about a month into this reading a lot like you did, trying to figure it out. saw your thanks to dogman, thank the lord(or allah, etc) for guys like him!! he has been helping me too. your trek 4300 build caught my eye because i have one too and love just to ride it. tora forks, light and rolls so sweet. not electrified yet, but am dreaming of a 5304...72v setup on on it. no money for that, though.

[999zip999]

I had a 4300 with a bmc 600hs and a 48v20ah Ping in the triangle prefect fit great combo. Stolen.

[ebiker1]

that hurts! i've got a v2 motor on another bike/wheel and i was thinking of swapping it to the trek and doing what you did w/ the battery pack. i don't have the v2T but i'm not sure if it's a S. is there a middle one cuz that is what i thought i have. i got it two years ago if they don't have one now. nice to know 20ah will fit in the triangle. what did the bike w/ pack weigh as a whole because i still want to be able to put it on a bus bike rack?

[neptronix]

neptronix......... just reading your first post. i'm about a month into this reading a lot like you did, trying to figure it out. saw your thanks to dogman, thank the lord(or allah, etc) for guys like him!! he has been helping me too. your trek 4300 build caught my eye because i have one too and love just to ride it. tora forks, light and rolls so sweet. not electrified yet, but am dreaming of a 5304...72v setup on on it. no money for that, though.

Hey, good luck on your journey. There's a lot to learn.
Sorry that this thread is full of ramble! hope you can get something out of it.

The mid 2000's treks are great because they have mounting holes galore for torque plates, and really tough rear dropouts. I had no problem running crazy 8kw power on my other trek frame ( 3700? 3900? i forget which one it was.. ). You wouldn't have a problem running a 53xx or 54xx.

I have been happy with this bike for a long time. I have changed a few things recently, and will provide an update on it's current condition soon.

999zip: sorry to hear about your loss man..

[neptronix]

Damnit...
I had a feeling that my MAC motor had been losing power over the years, and i just confirmed that.

380rpm no-load at 39v.. ( for reference, the stock motor's no load on 36v is 320rpm, that's 9kv after the 5:1 reduction, which would make 340rpm on 39v, if my motor was still in good shape. )

I believe that i've weakened my magnets running >2000W on it, a short experiment with 4000W, >7% grade climbing at 1500W continuous, and doing plenty of other things far above and beyond what this motor is rated at.

I've had the motor pretty damn hot on multiple occasions.

It still performs pretty well, but i know i've lost some efficiency. That bugs me. maybe it's time for a mid drive.

[neptronix]

I suppose there is one benefit of having a higher kv, partially demagnetized motor.

Wind was to my back pushing about 10mph yesterday. I got up to 38mph on my 8T using just 12S by pedaling like a bat out of hell. This motor would normally do 31mph max with pedaling, but around the loaded speed, it still has some faint grunt left. I'm just surprised at how much more additional speed it could continue to provide power.. !!

Guess i'm not so bummed about it after all..

[veloman]

Sounds like you now have a "7t mac."

[neptronix]

Lol yeah, some times i do.

By the way, i have been running Schwalbe Energizer plus's ( 1.75" ) on the MAC Trek.



This is what i get to pick out of my tires every 20-30 miles here in Utah!! I have picked 3x of this crap out of my schwalbe tires so far, they have absolutely been worth every penny! They have paid for themselves in tubes!

To it's credit, the 2 year old Specialized armadillo never had a flat either. But i didn't use a flat-proof tire on the front of this bike and it would get flats on front quite a bit.

I just put on Schwalbe Marathon plus's ( 2.0" ) for a better ride quality, and it has improved because the tire tread is pretty tall on that tire. The Marathon plus's have even better flat protection, not that i needed it, but i do like knowing that i have the most flatproof tire money can buy.

[neptronix]

Just a little update.
This bike is still doing a fine job, and i have no problems to report.

....but, i am long overdue for some rear suspension

I found a A2B metro with a burned out rear motor for $225 + shipping. I plan on making it my main ride.
Goofy as it may look - i love 20" wheel motors now.

We'll see how it goes. If i don't like that bike for various reasons i'll go back to the trek :p

[Racer_X]

Go for it! and I your A2B metro build thread will be a very good source of information as this thread has been. Good luck.

[neptronix]

You're gonna laugh but....
i've redecided about the A2B metro. Though it should be shipped to me in about a week, so i'll patch it up and sell it. Why not.

After my crash on my cargo bike, i'm done with small wheels and being low to the ground. They have great power advantages when it comes to hub motors, but i am thinking about safety now.

Anyway this bike has been sitting for months as i've used 'da bomb' as my main ride. When i picked it up without batteries, i was amazed at how light it was. When i put batteries in it, i was again amazed at how light it was; i could pick the thing up and carry it upstairs. And then i remembered that's why i built it that way in the first place, because i lived upstairs for the first 2.5 years of my interest in ebikes. This is the have your cake and eat it too bike, which is light weight and has decent power too.

But a ~50 pound ebike feels like a flimsy lightweight thing when you've been riding an 80+ pound stretch limo of a bike, lol.

Anyway, i put a standalone cycle analyst on it, put the controller back into the falconEV bag, and ya know what... it's still a good bike.

Here it is as it stands.


But i really want a 29er. Now that i've seen a few of them in person, sat on a few too, my extra large size ( 22.5" ) bike looks quasi-comical with 26 inch wheels and me on it ( i'm 6 foot ). Sort of like a mini velo, like below



So yeah this build thread will be ended soon when i find the bike of my dreams, an extended length 29er.

[veloman]

Why do you think 29'rs are going to be safer? I stick with 26" because its so common and it just works. I've yet to ride my 24" HS I built up, I don't like the looks of it on my bike. 29'r is good for rolling over obstacles, but I don't think you will gain safety on the road.

[neptronix]

Well, just for that reason. Larger contact patch.
I also want the longer wheelbase, which is an inherit feature of 29ers. They are at least half a foot longer. That's better for stability. The cargo bikes i've ridden are the most stable at high speeds. What i really want is a midtail but you can't just go out and buy a midtail frame, nor are there any just hanging out in the used market waiting for me to buy them.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=48663

I want to try this, but with 29" wheels instead of the 26" pictured. Or maybe keep the rear 32" and go with a front 29" with a suspension fork.

[pollux]

Hi
I know this is an old post but why do you have "avoid BMS Battery like the plague" at the bottom of your post?
Thanks

[veloman]

Have you thought of a cruiser frame? They have a 'midtail' length to them, at least the pedego ebikes do.

[neptronix]

Hi
I know this is an old post but why do you have "avoid BMS Battery like the plague" at the bottom of your post?
Thanks

Hey, welcome to the forums.
BMSBattery has poor customer support, does not speak very good english, and sells products that don't last very long. On top of that, they overcharge for shipping.

The most frustrating part is that they know what they're selling is not reliable at all, most particularly their batteries and chargers, but haven't bothered to revise their product lineup. OK, so their hub motors and controllers are allright, but good luck if you ever have a problem.

A lot of people buy their batteries because they're cheap and find that they fail within months, due to stupid things like a bad cell in the pack, or a blown BMS.

Have you thought of a cruiser frame? They have a 'midtail' length to them, at least the pedego ebikes do.

I really have considered it. There is a shiny walmart 29er cruiser bike called the GX7? which has a wheelbase that is about 4 inches longer than my Trek 4500, which is a 22.5" frame already, thus has a particularly long wheelbase for a mountain bike.

But i don't think it would quality as a midtail. It's kinda close though!

[chroot]

I agree.... Have you tried Cell_Man or ilia aka ebikessf chargers? If the charger blown and their warranty replacement is very excellent.

BTW I ordered 8T 500watt bare front motor from Cell_Man for my fiancee's new ODK Utility bike. I have not decide which motor for my Yuba Mundo cargo bike and I may be will test fitting the cromotor on the Yuba's dropout.

I plan to sell the sucky MPIII motor.

The most frustrating part is that they know what they're selling is not reliable at all, most particularly their batteries and chargers, but haven't bothered to revise their product lineup. OK, so their hub motors and controllers are allright, but good luck if you ever have a problem.

A lot of people buy their batteries because they're cheap and find that they fail within months, due to stupid things like a bad cell in the pack, or a blown BMS.