MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

[neptronix]

On the one i got... Aluminum

The cover plate is replaceable though, no need to take the spokes off or anything stupid.
Newer ones have steel plates apparently.

I won't be standing on the pedals anytime soon.

[neptronix]

Speaking of which, i went to install the rear disc today and stripped a disc thread hole.
The disc side is also aluminum, and apparently not very strong aluminum at that.

These are the rotor spacers i used:

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=3288

3mm offset is what i needed, exactly.
Getting the disc brake on these motors is a real tight fit !!

[neptronix]

OK, i got the infineon programming cable from lyen. Works fine with the cell_man controller.
The COM port dongle is a bit weird, likes to be on port 6 only. You have to type the COM port into the programming software, you can't select it from the drop down menu. Also, you have to install the various files that go with the programming software.. on windows 7 64 bit, you have to run the installer as an admin by right clicking on it.

I see where this trips up a lot of people. Lyen's documentation covers all the issues tho.

Anyhow, i got the peak amps down !! yeah!!!



This produces a peak amp value of 34.5 amps on hills. Cruising amps are still in the 15-25 range as before.
The torque kick i've been complaining about is very much reduced!
Hill climbing power is reduced, but.. my pedaling makes more of a difference. I do like that.

No shuddering, no problems! I'm using a phase multiplier value of x2.6 rather than cell_man's x2.6666...

I will try 2.5x later on and see what happens.
I think it is safe to run higher voltage again, though

[gensem]

Neptronix!!!

Please, please, please test the block time set to 0 to see if the max amps respect the rated current.

Thanks

[neptronix]

Gensem, i will do that next.

It is going to draw a ton of current coming from a start anyway though. I measured the amps peaking at a constant 32A-34.5A during a steep 1 mile hill climb. That's the same amount of amps it tries to dump from a dead stop.

So the high amp draw has nothing to do with block time. Hopefully turning off block time will allow smoother starts though. I have noticed that if i can get to 3-5mph by pedaling first, the start is much smoother. But it is hard to pedal from a stoplight and not nail that throttle after the first half revolution of the pedals..

[neptronix]

Gensem.
I tried your version of the keywin software.
ASV file is saving 0.0 to block time, instead of 1.
Transmit worked, no error.

If there is any change, i'm having a difficult time telling.
Seems way eager to eat more amps, but i haven't done a scientific test at all, it's 2am
Engagement at lower throttle levels seems just a bit smoother.

By the way.... at lower amp levels, mid-throttle is less of a problem. Yay! I can go higher voltage and install a speed switch now.

Motor still clunks when engaging the throttle, even lightly.. i think that is a fact of life for this motor; that's just the mechanical clutch / keyway doing it's thing. Thin aluminum covers don't mask the sound.

I will try 15S and report back later; 15S is where i had the problem with a huge jolt of power.
I will also try a 5+ second block time and see if the peak amps go any higher.

-David

[wineboyrider]

I have been using my CA to dial down the amps at higher voltages and it works much better. My motor controller combination get's weird when you go over 1500 peak wattts. Nice posts Neptronix I want to play with the programming eventually and will keep an eye out for what you get. I have the same problems at 15s lipo, but 48v lifepo4 runs great so does 12s lipo. At 12s lipo it dumps 1200 watts continuous at full speed.

[gensem]

Gensem.
I tried your version of the keywin software.
ASV file is saving 0.0 to block time, instead of 1.
Transmit worked, no error.

If there is any change, i'm having a difficult time telling.
Seems way eager to eat more amps, but i haven't done a scientific test at all, it's 2am
Engagement at lower throttle levels seems just a bit smoother.

By the way.... at lower amp levels, mid-throttle is less of a problem. Yay! I can go higher voltage and install a speed switch now.

Motor still clunks when engaging the throttle, even lightly.. i think that is a fact of life for this motor; that's just the mechanical clutch / keyway doing it's thing. Thin aluminum covers don't mask the sound.

I will try 15S and report back later; 15S is where i had the problem with a huge jolt of power.
I will also try a 5+ second block time and see if the peak amps go any higher.

-David

If im not mistaken you got a watt meter, no change on the reading with BT set to 0?
Man I was wanting so much to have absolute control over the motor amps.
Im not so worried with the composite gears they should be able to handle it. But what about the clutch at higher voltage. And heat might be an issue too.
Btw is your phases getting hot?

[gensem]

I have been using my CA to dial down the amps at higher voltages and it works much better. My motor controller combination get's weird when you go over 1500 peak wattts. Nice posts Neptronix I want to play with the programming eventually and will keep an eye out for what you get. I have the same problems at 15s lipo, but 48v lifepo4 runs great so does 12s lipo. At 12s lipo it dumps 1200 watts continuous at full speed.

I have a CA coming my way too. Will have to test whats is better overall BT+ CA, etc.
Im also interested in the Time adjustment tool from Burtie, but no one that has it posted any opinions yet.

[wineboyrider]

I have been using my CA to dial down the amps at higher voltages and it works much better. My motor controller combination get's weird when you go over 1500 peak wattts. Nice posts Neptronix I want to play with the programming eventually and will keep an eye out for what you get. I have the same problems at 15s lipo, but 48v lifepo4 runs great so does 12s lipo. At 12s lipo it dumps 1200 watts continuous at full speed.

I have a CA coming my way too. Will have to test whats is better overall BT+ CA, etc.
Im also interested in the Time adjustment tool from Burtie, but no one that has it posted any optinions yet.

I have the plug in CA, which I usually use on my 9c setup hooked up to my BMC. The speedometer doesn't work right, but I can volt it up. But, no matter what I do with it over 1500 watts it gets really weird so I am sure programming it right would help better.
Can you make the direct plug in Cycle Analyst work with the BMC/Mac motors????????

[gensem]

I have been using my CA to dial down the amps at higher voltages and it works much better. My motor controller combination get's weird when you go over 1500 peak wattts. Nice posts Neptronix I want to play with the programming eventually and will keep an eye out for what you get. I have the same problems at 15s lipo, but 48v lifepo4 runs great so does 12s lipo. At 12s lipo it dumps 1200 watts continuous at full speed.

I have a CA coming my way too. Will have to test whats is better overall BT+ CA, etc.
Im also interested in the Time adjustment tool from Burtie, but no one that has it posted any optinions yet.

I have the plug in CA, which I usually use on my 9c setup hooked up to my BMC. The speedometer doesn't work right, but I can volt it up. But, no matter what I do with it over 1500 watts it gets really weird so I am sure programming it right would help better.
Can you make the direct plug in Cycle Analyst work with the BMC/Mac motors????????

I dont think you can get real speed reading from a geared hub because of its freewheel capabilities; I ordered the CA-DP and it should work with any motor, but the speedmeter has a regular sensor to be tied to the wheel to get actual speed reading. ebikes.ca has all very well explained or their site.
I dont have anything working atm, but I ll be doing a greyborg frame built with either MAC/BMS or Xlyte HT3525 in the coming months.
Cell_man has MACs running over 2,5kw peaks, so im gessing you might have timing problems. What controller what you using?

[neptronix]

Gensem, i have a turnigy watt meter and i watched it like a hawk.

My peak amps from a dead stop are the same as my steep hill climbing amps, whether my block time is set to 0 or 1.
Thus, i don't see how a cycle analyst to limit the amps would help you much. It's a hackish way to do what you should be doing with the controller.

At the mellower 1300 watt peak i am running, the motor does not get over the outside temp, nor do the phase wires.
At 2500 watts constant for 10 minutes, it was getting quite warm on the outside, which means it was much hotter on the outside.

The problem with getting an RPM reading from the motor is that it runs 5 times faster than a DD. I just use a bike speedometer.

So, my solution for the jerky start is to pedal a bit first. I think you should be doing that first anyways, as efficiency at lower RPMs is horrific

Check the ebike.ca simulator graph for the MAC_Shanghai motor here ( 36v ezee limn, 35a controller, 26" wheel ):



If you pedal to 5mph, you double your starting efficiency. Seems like this can help range some in stop and go situations anyway.

[gensem]

There is so much things the controller should do, and there is so much settings that are not available.

I was sure the start amps would be equal to the climbing amps. but was still hoping to kill BT for good.
Im gessing I ll be forced to get premium lifepo4 batteries and better BMS in my new project. And im almost jumping to the HT3525 in the new bike until the jumbo mac (2kw rating) cell_man comented about shows up. And a mild MAC 500w 30a 48v on the old bike.


BTW in your simulation torque is somehow low. Have a look at the BMC torque simulation with the same parameters.
Thats probably why I ate gears so fast on my MAC torque.

[neptronix]

Well, the BMC "torque" and "speed" winds are quite different in how much peak torque they produce.. also, their max speed is quite different too.

[neptronix]

Okay, just did two tests with block time set to 5 seconds.

Test 1: 27 amps batt, 67.5 amps phase ( 2.5x )

Peak amps were 34.5 amps, both climbing hills, and from a dead stall.
Block time had no effect! After 5 seconds, i was still drawing the same peak 34.5 amps as soon as i hit that 5% grade.

Stall test at top of the hill: avoided a stall. peak amp was 34.59.

Test 2: 27 amps batt, 88 amps phase ( 3.26x )
Peak amps were 40.25 amps, both climbing hills and from a dead stall.
Again, no effect from block time.

Stall test at top of the hill failed. Stalled multiple times, had to get the bike up to 1mph.
Motor case was a little warm after the ~1 mile hill climb.
Controller was pretty hot.

So there you go. Block time has no effect, at least on this cell_man controller.

Sorry gensem. Our theory did not pan out, at least in my test.
However, i did rotate the the thumb throttle clockwise a bit. Now i can modulate starts quite a bit easier now.

It's interesting how, if you give this motor a bunch of phase amps, it will happily take them.

I am going to set my amps back to 27a batt, 70a phase for a ~35amp peak. That seems to be where the 9FET's realistic limits are. At this amp limit, the 9FET should be safe during my multi-mile hill climbs.

[gensem]

Stall test at top of the hill failed. Stalled multiple times, had to get the bike up to 1mph.

So im gessing that 3.25x phase ended up giving up more peak amps but the timing was off by a major offset that forced you to pedal when stalled at the hill?


I think I never got to understand what BT does. =(
If its not current, whats does it do? switch from star to delta in that given time???

[wineboyrider]

gensem wrote: I dont think you can get real speed reading from a geared hub because of its freewheel capabilities; I ordered the CA-DP and it should work with any motor, but the speedmeter has a regular sensor to be tied to the wheel to get actual speed reading. ebikes.ca has all very well explained or their site.
I dont have anything working atm, but I ll be doing a greyborg frame built with either MAC/BMS or Xlyte HT3525 in the coming months.
Cell_man has MACs running over 2,5kw peaks, so im gessing you might have timing problems. What controller what you using?

I know that the CA-DP won't work right with this motor, but I wanted to see how it would perform at higher voltages so I tried it anyway. I have a regular speedometer hooked up to it so it's no problem for now.
Just waiting on enough money for the right one...
I am using a lyens 9fet controller right now. It runs great up to 48v but after that it acts sporadic at low speed. Nicobie told me his worked great on an analog controller to higher voltages and I was wondering if that's where I should go next....???

[neptronix]

I don't think a controller can switch from star to delta..

The reason block time is confusing is because various people have different ideas on how it works.
Yet, i have not seen anyone do tests like i have done.

This is not a vanilla controller by any means, so maybe block time works differently on other controllers.

wineboy, read up on the crystalyte controllers. Analog ones that aren't broken are difficult to find. They also don't seem to live up to their voltage ratings.

[Burtie]

... Block time has no effect, at least on this cell_man controller.

It may be that the phase current limit you set is overiding the block time operation.
Phase currents will be at their highest during startup.

[neptronix]

Wahoo!! I hooked up the 20ah lipo pack today finally.



( it's in a topeak rack as the ammo box is still not ready )

I had each pack specially picked out from the 13 lipo packs i ordered, i balanced and paralleled only the cream of the crop, leaving the remaining lipos for a short stint pack. Worked great! all the cells were within 10mv when i was done.



Got 32 miles out of it, with lots of hilly terrain. Had quite a bit of AH left too; pack was at 37.1v!
Voltage sag at 36 amps peak was only 0.6v, lol. Lipo is awesome

The ride was great. Portland has a lot of trails to explore.. I actually had 30amp hours on me just in case, but didn't get to use em. Had to come back cuz i have work to take care of today







Well, i have achieved the goal i set forth when i decided to build this eBike. I am very stoked with the results. Should be a great riding season

[wineboyrider]

Wow. Some nice pictures. Weather is pretty nice finally for ya?

[neptronix]

For the 6 months of decent weather we get, Oregon is an eye popper.
Yeah, we are alternately getting rain and New Mexico-esque cloudy sunshine.

I have been waiting too long for this

[Racer_X]

Congratulations on achieving your goal, it is like the end of a chapter. Looking forward to hearing about your next goal.
I guess 20ah was too much for your ammo box? Was that a 50mm bullet ammo box by the way?

[neptronix]

Congratulations on achieving your goal, it is like the end of a chapter. Looking forward to hearing about your next goal.
I guess 20ah was too much for your ammo box? Was that a 50mm bullet ammo box by the way?

Thanks. The next goal is building up the girlfriend's 250w ecobike elegance up into something that can hang with mine... while keeping it's stock-ish look:



And actually the 10S 20ah fits perfect in the box, with room to spare! I just have to bug greenerwheels to drill out an exit port for the wires, paint / sticker the 36v cat logo on it, and slap it on the bike.

Until then i got the topeak rack to do the job. It can handle 20lbs so it'll work. The 20ah batt is only about 13lb.

[Racer_X]

I am also building an ebike for the wife. based on the 350w ebike kit geared motor. It funner to share the ebike good times.
I am still wondering what size ammo box you have though. I really like it but I have no idea about dimensions.
I have seen that they sell 50 mm ammo boxes and 30 mm ammo boxes, if you can give me some dimensions I can find a similar ammo box to yours.
Thanks.