MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

[o00scorpion00o]

Hi Neptronix,


Wow that really turned out well, well done!

That pack looks small enough, is that 8x 5ah Turnigy? and you are using 10S.

Do you not balance charge all the time?

I got the Icharger 206B after and I notice fast charge, balance. When you charge without using balance wires, do you set the Icharger to switch off at 10 amps, based on your pack being 10 amps?

I can't wait to get my mac now and batteries!

We don't get 6 months good weather, 2 if we are lucky, so It would be nice to get it soon!


Mark

[neptronix]

That pack looks small enough, is that 8x 5ah Turnigy? and you are using 10S.

Do you not balance charge all the time?

I haven't had to balance charge my smaller 5ah 10s zippy pack for 33 cycles now, the cells stay within 10mv or so of each other, it's awesome.. I can't speak for the 20ah pack, haven't exercised that one much.

I got the Icharger 206B after and I notice fast charge, balance. When you charge without using balance wires, do you set the Icharger to switch off at 10 amps, based on your pack being 10 amps?

I'm not sure what you mean, do you mean amp hours?
Anyhow the charger determines when to shut off by sensing the voltage. At 4.15v per cell, it will taper off the current slowly and decide it's done when the pack sits at 41.50v on it's own. Pretty simple.

We don't get 6 months good weather, 2 if we are lucky, so It would be nice to get it soon!

Oh dude, i thought i had it bad. My heart goes out to ya. I move to this state from California where riding season is about 10-11 months of the year in my opinion. So yeah i'm a whiner. But you got me beat.

[o00scorpion00o]

I'm not sure what you mean, do you mean amp hours?
Anyhow the charger determines when to shut off by sensing the voltage. At 4.15v per cell, it will taper off the current slowly and decide it's done when the pack sits at 41.50v on it's own. Pretty simple.

Yes I mean amp hours, I have a habit of saying amps!

Do you connect the balance wires at all to charge, and what mode do you use on the charger?

Oh dude, i thought i had it bad. My heart goes out to ya. I move to this state from California where riding season is about 10-11 months of the year in my opinion. So yeah i'm a whiner. But you got me beat.

Does California not have good weather? I thought it did?

Yeah one of the prices of living so far north with the Atlantic weather! I wish we had some of that global warming they keep on brain washing people about! The last 2 winters we had were the coldest in over 150 years! Global warming? Pity though as in the height of summer it's bright until nearly 11pm if it's clear weather lol, would be nice to have better weather to enjoy it more!

I wish I could move to France or Spain!

[neptronix]

Do you connect the balance wires at all to charge, and what mode do you use on the charger?

No, i don't bother with them, i just check the cell balance every few rides, or more particularly if i drain the batteries down to my LVC, which is set to 3.45v per cell.
I charge to 4.15v per cell, so even if the cells are disbalanced, i have a lot of headroom. Though, i should be charging to 4.10v per cell really..

Does California not have good weather? I thought it did?

Yeah one of the prices of living so far north with the Atlantic weather! I wish we had some of that global warming they keep on brain washing people about! The last 2 winters we had were the coldest in over 150 years! Global warming? Pity though as in the height of summer it's bright until nearly 11pm if it's clear weather lol, would be nice to have better weather to enjoy it more!

I wish I could move to France or Spain!

California has some of the best weather, although it is certainly too hot during the summer in the southern parts.
But it is pretty expensive to live there and i don't like the attitudes of the area.
I'm up in north Oregon now. Overcast about 2/3rds of the year, which blows.
But it's cheap and i love the people here.
If i could have it all in one place, i'd move wherever that is..

[o00scorpion00o]

No, i don't bother with them, i just check the cell balance every few rides, or more particularly if i drain the batteries down to my LVC, which is set to 3.45v per cell.
I charge to 4.15v per cell, so even if the cells are disbalanced, i have a lot of headroom. Though, i should be charging to 4.10v per cell really..

Ah 3.45v that's what I should set my cell monitors to is it? thanks for that! And 4.15 for charge? But how can the charger tell the cell volt if I don't have the wires connected? Do you use normal or fast charge mode?

California has some of the best weather, although it is certainly too hot during the summer in the southern parts.
But it is pretty expensive to live there and i don't like the attitudes of the area.
I'm up in north Oregon now. Overcast about 2/3rds of the year, which blows.
But it's cheap and i love the people here.
If i could have it all in one place, i'd move wherever that is..

Hey isn't Clint Eastwood from California I think San Fransisco?

I think Clint Eastwood is the best actor ever! I could watch his movies all day over and over, there will never be an actor like him again!!!
In fact I just watched Dirty Harry tonight....again! My brothers and sister were there in San Francisco and they loved it!

[neptronix]

Ah 3.45v that's what I should set my cell monitors to is it? thanks for that! And 4.15 for charge? But how can the charger tell the cell volt if I don't have the wires connected? Do you use normal or fast charge mode?

What your low voltage should be set to is quite variable on how many amp hours you have and how much voltage sag you have.

If you're using the cellog as a LVC alarm, and you only have say.. 5 amp hours, well, the battery can go from 3.55v per cell to 3.0v per cell pretty quick if you're drawing a lot of amps! so you need to set the cellog 8s to be very conservative at 3.5v/cell or so to give you a good warning.



As far as LVC in the controller goes..

It really depends on your pack size example, my 5ah pack will sag about 2-3 volts, whereas my 20ah pack will sag about 0.5-0.75 volts at peak amps ( now about 36a ).

That's a difference of 0.2-0.3 and 0.05-0.075 volt sag per cell when i'm running peak amps.

So for my 20ah pack, i need to set my LVC quite conservatively at about 3.5v/cell average to avoid the part of the discharge that starts getting disbalanced..

For my 5ah pack, i need to set that LVC more to 3.35v/cell average, otherwise it will cut off on me due to the 2-3 volts of sag.


Oh and i don't know where Clint Eastwood is from, maybe check the wikipedia

[o00scorpion00o]

I have the cell log 8M without data recording.

What should I have the low voltage alarm set for? What is the minimum voltage recommended for LiPo?

I get what you are saying about voltage sag and all, So basically If I set my lvc for 3.5 volts and I have used up some of the ah, that the lvc alarm could come on even though the battery still has charge left? but that won't damage the cell would it?

Sometimes I think it would be far nicer to have a BMS that would take care of everything

I'm still learning! And thanks for the info!

[neptronix]

Well, like i said, it does depend on your voltage sag.
3.5 is a good value. But if your cells sag to 3.5v @ max amps and your resting voltage is at 3.7v then that sucks because you're missing out on maybe 1/5th of your charge.

You can be even more conservative and set it to 3.6v per cell ( minus whatever your voltage sag is ).

[o00scorpion00o]

I wonder what the voltage sag will be on my 8 ah 12S Zippy's ?

I hope HK get batteries soon and cell-man motors!

[neptronix]

Find out with a watt meter or cycle analyst

[o00scorpion00o]

yep have cycle analyst.

I bet the sag won't be near as bad as on a ping!

[o00scorpion00o]

I got my Mac today and controller.

I must t install it on my bike tomorrow. Can't go out cycling much lately because the god damn wind just won't go away for the last few weeks! And when I do go out I can only go half the distance because the wind is so strong! And the motor would make it easier

Hey David my motor is silver, how come yours is black? lol

It doesn't look like HK will have the 8 ah 6S Zippy's any time soon, but I'm sure I can get a loan of my old Ping from pat for a while!


Mark

[o00scorpion00o]

Okay, I installed the motor. I had to use 4x 5mm washers on the motor for the disk.

The only thing now is I need better torque arms than what I got for this new project!

So I won't be able to test it for a while!

I took it for a cycle today for a little bit and I'm impressed so far with the freewheeling of this motor. It beats the crap out of the pie, definitely! So I think I could be very happy as this is what I want is to be able to pedal and use the throttle for hills and wind when I'm tired!

I imagine because of the better freewheeling it would increase range because I will be able to pedal a lot easier than the pie, that motor was really a leg killer, or knee killer as I have dodgy knees because of bad arches!


Mark

[neptronix]

Hey, this is my build thread, buddy

No clue why your motor isn't painted and mine is. There have been changes to the motor though recently with the bigger gears and all.

[o00scorpion00o]

Ha ha yes David, I won't hijack your thread any more LOL

My motor is better than yours!

[neptronix]

My motor is better than yours!

It may be, if you have steel cover plates. I can't run disc brakes until i get new cover plates.

Well, guess who got a toy in the mail yesterday ....
A meanwell 48v S-350 from sureelectronics!
Looks to be genuine, or at least a DAMN good copy. Good enough for me.
Voltage adjustment is rather high, from 39.8v to 59.3v !!

I promptly cut the shunt, after reading that it would put out 7 amps after cutting it.



And promptly threw away this AC power cord with it that is both dangerous and terribly undersized.... look at this thing, it's smaller than the balance wires on my lipo batteries!!!



Wired it up.



6.67 amps.... .... damnit.. i should have done the resistor mod.. i was just worried about the buzzing..
But... it's not buzzing so, hey. That's good. However at 10S & 41.0v, i am running way under it's capacity.



Maybe this will spur me to switch over to 12S or 13S land.
At 12S ( 49.2v ), that's only 328 watts.
At 13S ( 53.3v ), that's 355.511 watts.

Both are well within the range of the power this unit can produce, so.. hm....

[o00scorpion00o]

Interesting stuff David,


So will you take that charger with you while out and about or use it as your main charger?


Does it cut off when the battery is chargerd? I'm sure it senses when the current drops? I think There was a vid posted here a while ago of someone using a meanwell but with much higher current and I think he used a battery medic to balance which I think would be rather slow? But you are lucky that you don't need to balance much!

I would be afraid of using too much voltage or not enough to charge my 12S.

By the way David that's a very impressive job you did with your torque arms, it looks super tidy, you would think it was an origional part of the bike. I'm waiting for the adjustable torque arm from Ampedbikes, The dropouts on my bike are really awkward!

I can't wait to get test out the mac, but it's soooo cold for May and the wind bla I think I'll move to Oregan! Ha or California, hell I bet even New York has better weather than we do! . People who live in good climates don't know how lucky they are lol I just hope it gets better when I get the bike sorted!

Mark
Mark

[neptronix]

Interesting stuff David,

So will you take that charger with you while out and about or use it as your main charger?

Yeah, if need be. But it will stay home for the most part. Need to make the wiring a bit more um.. kosher before it hits the road. And there is a wobbly transformer that needs securing inside. Other than that, it would make a great portable charger.. meanwell even sells a 200w unit that looks like it can be modded as such, and is smaller too.

Does it cut off when the battery is chargerd? I'm sure it senses when the current drops? I think There was a vid posted here a while ago of someone using a meanwell but with much higher current and I think he used a battery medic to balance which I think would be rather slow? But you are lucky that you don't need to balance much!

I would be afraid of using too much voltage or not enough to charge my 12S.

Nope, it is not designed to cut off at a certain amperage, it should just float at a very low amp level until the battery is disconnected. As the battery nears the end of the charge though, current will slowly taper off until the battery holds it's voltage.

As for charging too high, see the wattmeter.. i can adjust the voltage via the potentiometer in the front.. not too hard, just multiply your target average cell voltage by the number of cells and set the meanwell to that voltage.

If you're nervous about it though, you can look into one of those bmsbattery shell chargers. They do make really high watt ones.

BTW what's on my bike is torque plates not torque arms. sorry to correct you but they are two distinct things. Li-ghtcycle made those for me. Thank god for local ebikers with a garage PLUS a surplus of time on their hands cuz that took forever..

The weather here sucks too, i only get out maybe once a week. next week's forecast is more intermittent rain and constant cloud cover with the threat of a sudden vicious downpour.

New york is mid 70F and sunny 80% of the week right now.
London is getting 4 more sunny days over the next 10 days.

Almost halfway through the year and we haven't had more than 3 days of consecutive sun yet.

http://beta.weather.com/weather/tenday/USOR0275

If your weather is worse than this, then yeah i feel bad for ya.

[o00scorpion00o]

I would be afraid of using too much voltage or not enough to charge my 12S.

Nope, it is not designed to cut off at a certain amperage, it should just float at a very low amp level until the battery is disconnected. As the battery nears the end of the charge though, current will slowly taper off until the battery holds it's voltage.

So does that mean you will overcharge it if you don't disconnect it?

As for charging too high, see the wattmeter.. i can adjust the voltage via the potentiometer in the front.. not too hard, just multiply your target average cell voltage by the number of cells and set the meanwell to that voltage.

Okay so 4.15 volts x 12 = 49.8. so setting it to 50 volts should do?

I'm assuming the charger will have to cc or cv or both?

If you're nervous about it though, you can look into one of those bmsbattery shell chargers. They do make really high watt ones.

Ah I think for now the 20 amp I charger will more than meet my needs and It's tiny, and the power supply isn't any bigger than my 5 amp ping charger. So on the rare occasion I need to top up from home it will do!

BTW what's on my bike is torque plates not torque arms. sorry to correct you but they are two distinct things. Li-ghtcycle made those for me. Thank god for local ebikers with a garage PLUS a surplus of time on their hands cuz that took forever..[/quote]

Indeed you are correct, just a bad habit, like saying amps instead of ah for battery capacity!

The weather here sucks too, i only get out maybe once a week. next week's forecast is more intermittent rain and constant cloud cover with the threat of a sudden vicious downpour.

New york is mid 70F and sunny 80% of the week right now.
London is getting 4 more sunny days over the next 10 days.

Almost halfway through the year and we haven't had more than 3 days of consecutive sun yet.

http://beta.weather.com/weather/tenday/USOR0275

If your weather is worse than this, then yeah i feel bad for ya.

Well 30 mph gusts are not nice and 20 mph winds all the time the last few weeks, sometimes stronger sometimes less, but always windy!

So that's why I need an E-Bike lol

Look at the pic and I'm 5 miles north of the Carlow station!

pic 1.jpg

(223.97 KiB) Downloaded 3 times

London is a fair bit away and they usually get better weather than we do, though Wales and Scotland would get pretty much the same, though I think Ireland is far wetter especially the west and north, and windy as we get the full blast of the Atlantic!

I think the temps there and here are around the same and the weather, though the wind chill makes it a lot cooler here and it makes out door activities less appealing. It's funny when you look at satellite pics of the mainland mostly clear all the time apart from a few crazy thunderstorms now and then, but it can get very hot there and we don't get extremes like some places!

I love talking about weather!

Right I'm off to check my freewheel,

Mark

[neptronix]

I would be afraid of using too much voltage or not enough to charge my 12S.

Nope, it is not designed to cut off at a certain amperage, it should just float at a very low amp level until the battery is disconnected. As the battery nears the end of the charge though, current will slowly taper off until the battery holds it's voltage.

So does that mean you will overcharge it if you don't disconnect it?

That means that it won't overcharge if you leave it connected.
Can't put amps in something that isn't asking for amps

It is the voltage difference of the battery pack VS the charger's voltage that makes the battery require amps to fill it up. If you have ever used a lipo charger, you will know that when the target voltage is achieved, the amp draw starts to gradually decrease. This is not a function of the charger really, more like a function of electricity. If you have a watt meter connected to a battery on any charger actually, you will see this.

So with no load on the meanwell since the battery voltage and meanwell voltage are the same, the meanwell will only pump out power when the battery voltage drops... which will naturally occur just a tiny bit with any lithium battery. So overall, the charger may be putting 0.00001 amps into the battery constantly since the battery can't keep it's voltage elevated ( it will naturally settle a bit lower )

There is a more technically correct way to explain this, but i have explained it the best way i can in layman's terms.

And the best way to understand it is with a watt meter and your eyes

Okay so 4.15 volts x 12 = 49.8. so setting it to 50 volts should do?
I'm assuming the charger will have to cc or cv or both?

You are correct.
The meanwell does CC/CV naturally, so yes. ( the CV part is when the voltage is held constant, and the amps are gradually declining as the battery is more able to hold the target voltage on it's own. )

That sucks about the wind and chillyness. Ok, i'll stop whining about the weather, you win

[o00scorpion00o]

Thanks for explaining that David!

I may use a meanwell in the future but for now I'll be happy with the Icharger, I have to get used to LiPo first, and hopefully I won't burn the house down when I first connect it all together!

Check out the 1500 watt meanwell, adjustable voltage from 43.2-56 volts. 31 amps that would charge my 8ah 12S pretty quick

Even the 16 ah pack would charge pretty fast!

[o00scorpion00o]

Would I be able to charge my 16ah pack with the meanwell or would I have to break it down into 8ah and charge them separately?

[neptronix]

PMing you the answer, in the interest of keeping my build thread less cluttered.

[neptronix]

I was pedaling along with my girlfriend today, getting groceries etc. aaaannd.. bam, pedal power slips. Motor goes all wobbly on the freewheel side, and it starts rubbing up against my brake etc. and i hobble home...

I have the old plate cover but i thought that if i didn't stand on the pedals or do anything stupid, i wouldn't break this..
Well, this motor is a bookend until i get a new freewheel side motor cover...

[spinningmagnets]

Okay so 4.15 volts x 12 = 49.8. so setting it to 50 volts should do?

o00scorpion00o, I highly recommend you adjust for 49V instead of 50V, as 49.2V equals 4.1V per cell in a 12S pack. I am told packs don't live as long and have more individual cell balancing headaches at any voltage above that. Many LiPo chargers will charge to 4.15 or 4.2V per cell to squeeze a little more distance from the pack (doesn't really add up to much more, though), and the Lithium-Ion (LiIo) setting charges to 4.1V per-cell. Also, due to the normal variances in any product, your charger and even your volt-meter can easily be off by 0.2V

Neptronix, I'm sorry to see the breakage. I am glad you are being honest about it instead of hiding it. I still like cell_man, but if there is a QA or design problem, then it needs to be fixed as soon as possible. I am also planning to buy the 500W rear MAC, but I plan to use it as a non-hub on a cargo bike similar to John-in-CRs super-V mount, so hopefully there will be less stress on the axles and sidecovers for my application.