Keyne's DH Comp Build - now with liquid cooled HX35! :)

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Re: Keyne's DH Comp Build

Postby keyne » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:56 pm

Next Task: Beef up controller

The 18FET controller I got from Lyen has great FETs, but the 12awg cables for phase and power seemed a bit thin, so I replaced them with 8awg cable at the same time as adding solder/copper to the traces. Fitting 8awg cable into the holes on the circuit board took some improvisation - using andersons connectors in ways they were never designed to be used. See pics below.


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I got rid of the thin rubber seal at the cable end of the controller (broke it during disassembly) and replaced it with some good cable glands.

controller_cable_glands.jpg
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A bit of wiring to go, next I'll attack the motor and then get cracking on the fiberglass side panels.

Oh, I was stoked with the way my forks turned out with their new paint job, here's a pic :D
forks_paint.jpg
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Re: Keyne's DH Comp Build

Postby Doctorbass » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:29 pm

Hey keyne,

If you get any problem with the solder of 8 gauge wire on the controller PCB, may i suggest you something i did and that work really well? :mrgreen:

I used some great home electrical box copper terminal for the negative ( due to the size and the proximity to the 4 shunt, it also help alot to dissipate the heat from the shunt and make it more stable regarding the shunt resistance value so the current limit will not decrease as the shunt try to heat up :wink: )
It also allow putting bigger wire like 4 gauge if you wish too

For the positive i used a screw of the size of the hole of the pcb ( the thread of the screw just fitted perfect and tight

I used a screw that i can solder to the copper surface of the back of the pcb.

As you can see i also ysed big 3/16" diameter copper rod made for home electrical wiring ( 6 AWG) for the bus bar to help sharing the current to all mosfets.


Here it is!

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Re: Keyne's DH Comp Build

Postby keyne » Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:58 pm

Hey Doctorbass,
My andersons method worked surprisingly well, I'm really happy with the connections. I do like your simple bus bar method though, I will have to look into getting some of that! :D
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Re: Keyne's DH Comp Build

Postby keyne » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:03 pm

Just ordered the rest of the batteries I need for the build :D

16x 4s 5Ahr Flightmax 20c lipo
4x 2s 5Ahr Flightmax 20c lipo ( a slightly tricky arrangement to make the width of the battery compartment only 120mm)

5000-4-20.jpg
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That gives me a 24s 15Ahr pack.
I had toyed with 20Ahrs but the extra bulk would have made the fiberglass moulding and wiring much more difficult. (Also my wife has been making noises about the cost of the build - she just doesn't quite understand! :wink: )
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Re: Keyne's DH Comp Build

Postby keyne » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:00 pm

Next task: Motor!

So I've got a crystalyte HT3525 on order, but in the meantime I'm working with the 5305 I've got lying around.

A while ago I managed to lace it into a DMR Blackline rim with 9 gauge motorcycle spokes :shock:
xlyte_5305.jpg


But in order to use a 9 speed freewheel I have to be able to dish it as much as possible. So I took out half the spokes and swapped them over to the other side
dished_5305.jpg


That was quite a task as you can see from this pic
dishing_trouble.jpg
I don't think I'll ever use 9 gauge spokes again, 11 gauge max I think!

I'm planning to put the new HT3525 in a 24 inch rim with 11 gauge spokes, but in the mean time I've got this motor to play with :D
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Re: Keyne's DH Comp Build

Postby Mark_A_W » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:35 pm

Yeah, you actually want the spokes to be weaker than the hub flange...it's much easier to replace a spoke :wink:

9 Gauge....CRIKEY!!
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

Powered by the sun :)

Dead: Jamis Dakar frame, Mongoose Pro Downhill frame, cooked Lipo booster pack....and various other bits and pieces...
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Re: Keyne's DH Comp Build

Postby keyne » Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:21 am

Yeah, I know, in hindsight it was a bit silly. :oops: I'd just broken three crystalyte 12 gauge spokes on one particular big rock and wanted to try something stronger, but all I could find on Ebay was 9 gauge spokes! They are really hard to deal with! I could only just bend them by hand! Not recommended :!:
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Re: Keyne's DH Comp Build

Postby patrickza » Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:48 am

Great work so far those torque arms will be great for power and especially regen. Also a really good frame for packing a battery into. With 100v you should be flying! Have you run swbluto's simulator to see what sort of speed, range etc you could be expecting? I found it's predictions to be very close to my real world figures.

You'll probably find you hardly use any of your gears, on my bike I hardly ever change out of top gear, and you'll have much more power!

From the sounds of things this can't be your first build, but I never found another build thread for you. Just curious to see what else you've done.
Greyb.org, Cromotor, Headway 83.2v 20AH, Lyen 18 fet: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=45514
Kona Kahuna, x5305, Headway 76.8v 10AH, Crystalyte 72v48A: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10256
Bladez Scoot, 450W motor putting out 3kW, Headway 38.4v 10AH, Lyen special controller: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=25872
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Re: Keyne's DH Comp Build

Postby keyne » Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:34 am

I don't expect to use too many of the gears :wink: But I have some pretty steep off road terrain around where I live that I will be using it on.
I've done a few builds before, but the only one I documented was one done in a big rush with/for a friend : http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... =6&t=25563

Tried to download the simulator, but the file seems to be corrupted.
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Re: Keyne's DH Comp Build

Postby keyne » Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:39 am

I just received confirmation that my HT3525 is on it's way :) I quickly changed my (delayed) order to a sensorless version after reading the 35mm/30mm problem Methods was having with his sensored motors. I'm sure I can find a way to install the hall sensors! :mrgreen:
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Re: Keyne's DH Comp Build

Postby keyne » Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:09 am

Just recieved my SRAM 9 speed X0 gripshift :D
x0_twistshifter_large.jpg
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Last edited by keyne on Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Keyne's DH Comp Build

Postby GCinDC » Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:25 am

this is an awesome build!
keyne wrote:A while ago I managed to lace it into a DMR Blackline rim with 9 gauge motorcycle spokes

did you have to drill out the eyelets?
keyne wrote:But in order to use a 9 speed freewheel I have to be able to dish it as much as possible. So I took out half the spokes and swapped them over to the other side

What in the world do you need a 9speed freewheel for!?
Youtube channel, 2011 Highlights vid. Ebike Nerdcast.
Giant DH Comp: 20s lipo (10Ah), hs3540, 72V 45A 12FET, 900W BMSBattery charger.
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Re: Keyne's DH Comp Build

Postby keyne » Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:02 am

Yes I had to drill out the eyelets, and enlarge the holes on the motor flange by 0.5mm.

I've been working on the fiberglass side panels this weekend, I'll post photos once I think they look good enough :D
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Re: Keyne's DH Comp Build

Postby keyne » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:07 am

Next Task: Bike Side Panels

Ok, so I know almost nothing about making composites and this really is an unconventional way of making a mould, but it works well for simple prototypes like this. It doesn't make really strong, light components, but it makes it good enough for this purpose. These are the steps I followed - they may be wrong - buyer beware! :mrgreen:

The frame is a complex shape and to make a panel to fit it exactly is quite difficult, making the mold for the panel would be the hardest part. So instead of making a mold, I used the frame as the mold! :D

Step 1: Lie the frame and it's eventaly contents (battery pack) down on a table and put shims under the frame so the battery pack is centered. Put cling film (gladwrap in NZ) over everything.
fakeBatteries.jpg
Polystyrene for dummy batteries
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Step 2: Next to make the mould look a nice shape go and mix up a big batch of play-doh! :D Yup you read that right, a great cheap, dense maliable thing to make your mould out of.

Step 3: Lay out and mould the playdoh over the frame and battery pack until you have the shape you are looking for. Play-doh is very easy to work with, even kids can do it! :) Remember to allow raised areas for things like cable entrance holes, brake cables etc. Once you have the shape you want put another layer of gladwrap over the top and make sure everything is nice smooth. Obviously It isn't a hard mould, in fact it is really soft, so you're not going to be making top quality fiberglass with it (you'll have to put on a few more layers than if you were doing it with a propper mold), but it is easy and painless (and kinda reminicent of ones childhood:)

playdoh.jpg
Back to kindergarten! (the rolling pin sure is handy!)
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Step 4: Next cut pieces of your favourite composite material (fiberglass/carbonfiber - I used 3-4 layers of 200g woven fiberglass cloth) to a bit bigger than the size you need.

By the way, don't be put off trying this fiberglass stuff just because you've never done it before, this was only my third time doing anything with it. I just bought a fiberglass kit from a boat shop for about US$60 and gave it a go. It is really just like adults pape mache!

Step 5: Basically, just mix up some epoxy don a gasmask and rubber gloves and carefully lay up your side cover, one layer at a time making sure that each layer is well wetted with epoxy. I found it easiest to spread the epoxy around just using my hands (with silicon gloves on) It only takes about 30mins. Make sure the windows are open and wear a propper gas mask, this stuff can really make you light headed!

layup.jpg
Side 1 curing
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Step 6:Obviously with this molding technique you can only do one side at a time, but you can even reuse the play-doh. The gladwrap under the fiberglass will inevitably become stuck to the inside, but that doesn't matter because no one sees that bit! I managed to re-use my playdoh after over a week sitting in the mould (with a bit of TLC) and after I was done I put it out with the compost! :)

Step 7: Leave to cure for 48 hrs and then trim, sand and admire your handywork.

trimmedPanels.jpg
Fiberglass trims well with an angle grinder
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{b}Step 8: [/b] Identify any high/low points (all the pen marks in the previous photo) that you don't like and add bog as appropriate (on the outside or inside depending) It is kind of like icing a cake. (follows on well from all that kneeding with the playdoh! :D ) After it has cured, sand it till you're happy with it.
icingTheCake.jpg
Who's got a birthday? Anyone?
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Step 9:(Optional) You may want to heat cure the panels it in a large cardboard box lined with aluminium foil and heated by lightbulbs - a makeshift low temp (100-120deg C) oven for about 12 hours if you want good heat resistance and added stiffness, but for most applications room temp curing should be ok. If you want to heat cure the part, you just need to raise the temp slowly over a period of a couple of hours, eg. start with one bulb on and the box open, then after half an hour close the box, after another half hour turn another bulb on, half an hour later the third bulb goes on and then after another half hour insulate the box with a towel. (A multimeter temp probe is handy) Leave it for 9-12 hours, then reverse the process to cool it down again. (you'll need to do this somewhere where the smell of hot epoxy doesn't bother anyone! Believe me, you don't use the oven in your kitchen!)
Basically with heat curing fiberglass the deal is that it'll start to get softish at about 30deg C higher than the temp at which it was cured at, so if you don't intend having hot batteries or using it in the desert, then room temp curing should be ok, but heat curing seems to make the panels a bit stiffer though, which is a good thing. You'll need to sand the panels again after heat curing because somehow the grain of the fiberglass cloth shows through more afterwards.

Step 10: Paint the panels. Definately only do this after heat treatment (if you choose the heat treatment option) as heat treatment will change the surface of the fiberglass. I found that epoxy spraypaint works pretty well on fiberglass.
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Re: Keyne's DH Comp Build

Postby patrickza » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:30 am

That's quite a neat tutorial. I thought about that before I built my plastic box, but I have other projects in mind that could use that. Did you find a good site with details that helped you learn how?
Greyb.org, Cromotor, Headway 83.2v 20AH, Lyen 18 fet: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=45514
Kona Kahuna, x5305, Headway 76.8v 10AH, Crystalyte 72v48A: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10256
Bladez Scoot, 450W motor putting out 3kW, Headway 38.4v 10AH, Lyen special controller: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=25872
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Re: Keyne's DH Comp Build

Postby keyne » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:32 am

I read a few bits on this forum and a bit on a boat building forum regarding the heat treatment process. Basically I just tried it and it worked out pretty well.
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Re: Keyne's DH Comp Build

Postby dbaker » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:33 am

This is going to be a very nice build :mrgreen:
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Re: Keyne's DH Comp Build

Postby dbaker » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:36 am

What brand of epoxy did you use? I have used a variety of boat epoxies and the West System products have a range of catalysts to allow curing in hot and cold conditions.
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Re: Keyne's DH Comp Build

Postby keyne » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:51 am

I've tried the CRC Ados range and Epiglass. Those are the only two in the shop I went to. Both seem to work similarly. They both seem to cure at any temp given enough time, but seem stiffer/stronger if allowed to cure at higher temps. They shouldn't go "soft" if exposed to higher temps later on.
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Re: Keyne's DH Comp Build

Postby keyne » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:44 pm

My Crystalyte HT3525 motor arrived today! :D It's sensorless, so I'll need to install sensors - does anyone have a link to appropriate Hall sensors that are in stock somewhere?
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Re: Keyne's DH Comp Build

Postby Andje » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:30 pm

ebike .ca has them. or you could go with digikey or mouser, they prbly both have them too.
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Re: Keyne's DH Comp Build

Postby keyne » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:37 am

Not much work been done recently - had to go rock climbing with my wife last weekend so couldn't do anything on the bike :( :wink:

If I was going to liquid cool this motor would cooling this part here (red "X"s - ignore callipers -lifted from Justin's photos) would that be sufficient to cool the rest of the stator - anyone know how well it is thermally coupled to the rest of the stator and windings?
17mm Axle.jpg
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Also regarding installing hall sensors to a sensorless motor - any fundamental reason why I couldn't feed the three thin wires through these gaps here - there is plenty of room.
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Re: Keyne's DH Comp Build

Postby keyne » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:00 pm

Ok, update: After a lot of sanding the panels are looking quite nice. I reconstructed the bike after my painting efforts and I'm really happy with the way it looks.
panel_on.JPG
Final width between the knees will be about 118mm :D

The rest of my Lipo arrived last week, so I've got no excuses now
lipo.JPG


I put on a "marketing layer" of carbon fiber - (two layers actually) which I think looks cool and makes the panels nice and stiff
panels.JPG


I built a make-shift oven with some cardpoard boxes, three 100W lightbulbs and lots of aluminium foil and tape
oven.JPG
Just a pile of boxes?

I managed to ramp up the temperature over a few hours to 120deg C. Kept it there for 7 hours then ramped it back down over a few hours. The panel are now super stiff! I've got a lot of sanding to do this week to make it look how I want.

Anyone have any comments on my water cooling questions earlier?
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Re: Keyne's DH Comp Build

Postby full-throttle » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:19 pm

Looking good!

Going to be one hell of an bike :)

Re: water cooling - not sure if its worth it, unless you want to empty your pack in minutes. Riding in bursts extends the range and keeps the motor in the safe zone. Just a thought..
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Re: Keyne's DH Comp Build

Postby manitu » Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:49 pm

What?? NO!! You didn't?? F**K!!! You had a original Manitou dorado in good condition , and you PAINTED it?? There's some downhillers here crying right now.
Man , oh man, I've would paid top dollars for that fork in mint condition.

That fork was taken back into production last year because people wanted it so bad. I envy you! (but wouldn't painted it, no way!
That fork is the closest you get to a moto-x fork for putting on a bike. Off course , you got the fox 40now , but those egg-shell thin lowers and a oil-change every 30 hours makes it a no-go for me. The new dorado is to expensive for me.

I'm in the planning stages of a DH-Team build , myself (http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27043) but I'll settle for a Marzocchi fork. It's not at all a bad fork , but without the upside-down fork this frame is designed for , I'll have to settle for 170-180mm (7") travel on the forks not to upset the geometry.

Those dropouts looks nice , Is there any more of them available?

I'll be watching this build thread for shure!

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